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Chris Davidson
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2+50 does align with the snipers nest but the data on 884 is aligned with station c( I think), which would be station 2+(50-15.5) = station 2+34.5

I think I see what the problem is.

The frame station data is referenced to station C. The rifle data is measured from the snipers nest to JFK in the limo. They are two different measurements.

The 137.4 foot is the measured distance from the snipers nest to JFK in the limo at frame 161.

The 3+29.2 is the measured distance of JFK in the limo from station C.

15ft apart, should be two different measurements to the same target.

Here's a visual for you.

chris

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Only 1 angle measurement, the line of sight measurement from the rifle in window to JFK in limo at frame 161.(cyan with 137.4 label)

Only 1 linear measurement, the distance from Station C to JFK in limo at frame 161.

Why did you add the angle from the corner?

stationc.png

Edited by Mike Rago
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1.

Look at the survey

look at the lane markers for z161 at 3+29

look at where the thin blue lines intersect

2.

now look at z161 below

you will notice the FRONT of the limo is past the lane markers and past where the concrete on the south side of Elm ends

you will also notice where JFK is in relation to the concrete and lane markers

the measurement at z161 is taken to the FRONT of the limo

when this changes to where JFK is AFTER 161, we remove 30 feet from the calculations

DJ

One and Two above I understand and agree.

What does this mean? I do not see the removal of 30 feet.

when this changes to where JFK is AFTER 161, we remove 30 feet from the calculations

Since JFK is a fixed 15 feet behind the front of the limo we always know where JFK is if we know where the front of the limo is.

For instance,

if the FRONT of the limo is at station 3+29 then JFK is at station 3+(29-15) = station 3+14.

if the FRONT of the limo is at station 3+44 then JFK is at station 3+(44-15) = station 3+29

if the FRONT of the limo is at station 4+30 then JFK is at station 4+(30-15) = station 4+15

I used the frame and station data from exhibit 884 to calculate the instantaneous speed.

The average speed from frame 161 to frame 166 was 2.25 mph.

The average speed from frame 166 to frame 185 was 12.61 mph.

...

It does look like the limo slowed down going around the corner...

The red box shows the average speed from frame 161 to frame 313 was 11.17 mph.

vehilclespeed.png

I think the above data is some very good data. It may be the best data we have for the location and speed of the limo during the murder, even if there is some error in it that Chris is going to reveal.

Mike,

I believe you are missing the point of that table...

It is not possible, physically, to accellerate from 2.25 to 12mph in a single second without it being noticed...

to get from 2.25mph and to AVERAGE 12.61 for the next 19 frames, the limo has to accellerate thru 3, 4, 5, 6 mph which LOWERS the average speed..

To average 12.61mph the limo must spend some time ABOVE 12.61 mph to conter the time spent at LESS than 12.61.

Now, to AVERAGE 18.72mph in one frame, the NEXT frame, the speed of the limo at frame 184 had to be very close to 18mph since in the next 21 frames the limo is back down to 12... (which again requires the limo to spend some of these frames at LESS than 12...

Now look at the zfilm... would you say the limo DRASTICALLY SPED UP from 161 thru 184... then slowed drastically from 18 back down to 9.57 in just over 20 frames to get us to 210? When everyone who testified said it mainted a steady and average speed of 8-12mph.

AS an exercise, try to pinpoint the speed of the limo IN EACH FRAME from 161 thru 210 so the averages work.

I believe you will be in for a very interesting surprise... the speeds at which this table tells us the limo traveled cannot be matched back to the existing Zfilm...

As this table was used to explain the shooting - one can see how morally corrupt the WC, SS and FBI were.

DJ

David,

Thank you for pointing this out to Mike.

To help him out a little more, since we know that frame 161 is actually surveyed Frame 168, he might run the span from Z168-Z255, since we know from Z255-Z313 the speed is reduced, at least according to the calculations.

IOW, that is now 87 frames in 87.2ft. = 1ft per 1frame. Interesting how that ratio arises.

chris

P.S.

Of course I didn't include the "limo front" and "JFK in limo" ratio to this either.

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Only 1 angle measurement, the line of sight measurement from the rifle in window to JFK in limo at frame 161.(cyan with 137.4 label)

Only 1 linear measurement, the distance from Station C to JFK in limo at frame 161.

Why did you add the angle from the corner?

stationc.png

That's what a 15ft difference would look like using the "limo front" and "JFK in limo" as starting points. Two starting points, same target.

You can recreate an angle on the other end by plotting 3+14.2 and using the sniper's nest as the same point, but I believe you get the picture.

chris

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1.

Look at the survey

look at the lane markers for z161 at 3+29

look at where the thin blue lines intersect

2.

now look at z161 below

you will notice the FRONT of the limo is past the lane markers and past where the concrete on the south side of Elm ends

you will also notice where JFK is in relation to the concrete and lane markers

the measurement at z161 is taken to the FRONT of the limo

when this changes to where JFK is AFTER 161, we remove 30 feet from the calculations

DJ

One and Two above I understand and agree.

What does this mean? I do not see the removal of 30 feet.

when this changes to where JFK is AFTER 161, we remove 30 feet from the calculations

Since JFK is a fixed 15 feet behind the front of the limo we always know where JFK is if we know where the front of the limo is.

For instance,

if the FRONT of the limo is at station 3+29 then JFK is at station 3+(29-15) = station 3+14.

if the FRONT of the limo is at station 3+44 then JFK is at station 3+(44-15) = station 3+29

if the FRONT of the limo is at station 4+30 then JFK is at station 4+(30-15) = station 4+15

I used the frame and station data from exhibit 884 to calculate the instantaneous speed.

The average speed from frame 161 to frame 166 was 2.25 mph.

The average speed from frame 166 to frame 185 was 12.61 mph.

...

It does look like the limo slowed down going around the corner...

The red box shows the average speed from frame 161 to frame 313 was 11.17 mph.

vehilclespeed.png

I think the above data is some very good data. It may be the best data we have for the location and speed of the limo during the murder, even if there is some error in it that Chris is going to reveal.

Mike,

I believe you are missing the point of that table...

It is not possible, physically, to accellerate from 2.25 to 12mph in a single second without it being noticed...

to get from 2.25mph and to AVERAGE 12.61 for the next 19 frames, the limo has to accellerate thru 3, 4, 5, 6 mph which LOWERS the average speed..

To average 12.61mph the limo must spend some time ABOVE 12.61 mph to conter the time spent at LESS than 12.61.

Now, to AVERAGE 18.72mph in one frame, the NEXT frame, the speed of the limo at frame 184 had to be very close to 18mph since in the next 21 frames the limo is back down to 12... (which again requires the limo to spend some of these frames at LESS than 12...

Now look at the zfilm... would you say the limo DRASTICALLY SPED UP from 161 thru 184... then slowed drastically from 18 back down to 9.57 in just over 20 frames to get us to 210? When everyone who testified said it mainted a steady and average speed of 8-12mph.

AS an exercise, try to pinpoint the speed of the limo IN EACH FRAME from 161 thru 210 so the averages work.

I believe you will be in for a very interesting surprise... the speeds at which this table tells us the limo traveled cannot be matched back to the existing Zfilm...

As this table was used to explain the shooting - one can see how morally corrupt the WC, SS and FBI were.

DJ

David,

Thank you for pointing this out to Mike.

To help him out a little more, since we know that frame 161 is actually surveyed Frame 168, he might run the span from Z168-Z255, since we know from Z255-Z313 the speed is reduced, at least according to the calculations.

IOW, that is now 87 frames in 87.2ft. = 1ft per 1frame. Interesting how that ratio arises.

chris

P.S.

Of course I didn't include the "limo front" and "JFK in limo" ratio to this either.

If we wanted to stick with the original CE884 calculations, while including the 15ft "limo front" to "JFK in limo" difference, it would yield this:

161-313=152 frames

3+29.2 - 4+65.3=136.1ft + 15ft difference = 151.1ft

152 frames in 151ft or 1frame per 1 ft.

So in reinstating the 255-313 span while adding the 15ft difference, we get the same ratio of 1frame per 1 ft.

Amazing.

chris

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Chris you have not shown that adding 15 feet is justified. You are just adding it because it gives interesting numerical results.

You have not shown that the numbers in 884 are wrong.

You keep saying those numbers represent the position of the FRONT of the limo but you have not shown this.

Edited by Mike Rago
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David,

,...since we know that frame 161 is actually surveyed Frame 168...

And we get to the very crux of your mistake. There are no surveyed frames. There are only GUESSES. A recreation is GUESSES piled on top of more GUESSES.

Garbage in, Garbage out. Kind of like this entire thread.

Edited by Craig Lamson
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Here is a chart of the frame station data from exhibit 884. The red line is a linear regression fit to the data.

The vehicle speed is the slope of the red line, which is .89 feet per frame, call it .9 feet per frame ( that is point nine feet per frame)

The vehicle should move 5*.89 = 4.47 feet in 5 frames. However, according to the table, the vehicle only moves .9 foot in those 5 frames, resulting in the slow calculated velocity.

The first two points are clustered together...

vehiclespeedregrg.png

The data in the above chart are from columns 1 and 2 in this table

tablexo.png

Here is an animated gif of frames 161 and 166. The limo does not move much. If its moving at the speed at other points on the curve the limo should move about 5 feet.

z161.gif

Edited by Mike Rago
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On 9/20/2012 at 3:49 PM, Craig Lamson said:
On 9/20/2012 at 1:29 PM, Chris Davidson said:

David,

,...since we know that frame 161 is actually surveyed Frame 168...

And we get to the very crux of your mistake. There are no surveyed frames. There are only GUESSES. A recreation is GUESSES piled on top of more GUESSES.

Garbage in, Garbage out. Kind of like this entire thread.

Let me see if we understand your argument Craig.

CE884 http://www.history-m...Vol17_0464b.htm

is a table that offers:

1 - Frame numbers related to the Zapruder film

2 - Station No's (distances) based on where the limo was at different Zapruder frames BASED ON THE RECREATION...

OK, now we're getting somewhere

So they RECREATED the location of the limo based on the Zapruder film, frame by frame, and then did their measurements...

Potentially they placed the car in the wrong place based on the film, so there potentially are errors in the distances and angles from the window to the car and from the car's location to the next -

Craig - would you say these errors were inches, feet or yards at any one specific frame location?

Let's use one frame as a reference to see how far off they could be...

From z161 to z166, CE884 tells us the limo moved .9 ft. How would they determine this?

As Craig says, they RECREATED thelocation by looking at z166, placing the car there, and measuring.

How far off is that .9 ft measurement?

Well... CE888 is a recreation of Frame 161 and gives us a distance of 94.7 feet from Station C ( a fixed landmark )

CE889 is Frame 166 and give us a distance of 95.6 feet from Station C... .9 feet farther away...

Makes sense as the limo was indeed moving away from Station C. Yet, it takes 5 frames to go that distance which equates to 2.25 mph.

At 11.2mph - the stated speed of the limo - how much ground would be covered in 5 frames?

Well, 11.2 = 16.42feet per second @ 18.3 fps = .8976 FEET PER FRAME, so the limo SHOULD have moved 4.5 feet in 5 frames...

Craig, they off by 450% ?? Well, hey - let's go check the actual Zfilm and See... this is 166 overlaid on 161.

Looks to me that the limo moved forward a bit more than a tire width... more than .9ft yet no where near 4.5 feet.... Maybe 1.5 feet? about 4mph?

post-1587-0-34667500-1348183326_thumb.jpg

So Craig here is right, somewhat, there will be slight variations to the measurements and the actual film... they did the best they could...

Yet it still begs the question why the speeds were able to vary so greatly from frame to frame... from point to point?

As I illustrated above... the AVERAGE is a culmination of speeds... to increase from 3mph to AVERAGE 12mph over 20 frames requires movement MUCH FASTER than was seen on the film, much faster than 12mph for a number of those frames... regardless of whether it was in the recreation or not.

Craig would have us believe that the recreation has no relationship to the Zfilm... that the information provided was not use to determine the distances and angles within the Zfilm as close as possible.

If the RECREATION ultimately produced data that could not be matched back to the film they were recreating - why would they offer the information as such?

Does the WCR tell us that they considered these measurements to be an accurate representation of what we see on the Zfilm?

http://www.history-m.../WR_3_Shots.pdf

The pictures or frames in the Zapruder film were marked

by the agents, with the number “1” given to the first frame where the

motorcycles leading the motorcade came into view on Houston Street.273

The numbers continue in sequence as Zapruder filmed the Presidential

limousine as it came around the corner and proceeded down Elm.

The President was in clear view of the assassin as he rode up Houston

Street and for 100 feet as he proceeded down Elm Street, until he

came to a point denoted as frame 166 on the Zapruder film.274

These facts were determined in the test by placing the car and men on Elm

Street in the exact spot where they were when each frame of the

Zapruder film was photographed. To pinpoint their locations, a man

stood at Zapruder’s position and directed the automobile and both

models to the positions shown on each frame, after which a Bureau photographer

crouched at the sixth-floor window and looked through a

camera whose lens recorded the view through the telescopic sight of

the C2’766 Mannlicher-Carcano rifle.275 (See Commission Exhibit No.

887, p. 99.) Each position was measured to determine how far President

Kennedy had gone down Elm from a point, which was designated

as station C, on a line drawn along the west curbline of Houston

Street.276

Based on these calculations, the agents concluded that at frame 166

of the Zapruder film the President passed beneath the foliage of the

large oak tree and the point of impact on the President’s back disappeared

from the gunman’s view as seen through the telescopic lens?”

(See Commission Exhibit No. 889, p. 100.)

So we see that while Craig would have you believe the data offered by the WCR related to the frames and distances seen in the Zfilm are simple GIGO... they were still presented as FACTS... they were still used to determine conclusions about the shots... WITH THE ZFILM... not on some island all alone. In fact, the WCR uses this recreation and its FACTS to support the SBT...

Are you now saying that since this information was such absolute GARBAGE, the basis for the SBT is also GARBAGE?

Based on his observations during the reenactment and the position

of Governor Connally shown in the Zapruder film after the car

emerged from behind the sign, Frazier testified that Governor Connally

was in a position during the span from frame 207 to frame 225

to receive a bullet which would have caused the wounds he actually

suffered.

Governor Connally viewed the film and testified that he

was hit between frames 231 and 234. According to Frazier, between

frames 235 and 240 the Governor turned sharply to his right, so that

by frame 240 he was too far to the right to have received his injuries

at that time

At some point between frames 235 and 240, therefore,

is the last occasion when Governor Connally could have received his

injuries, since in the frames following 240 he remained turned too far

to his right. If Governor Connally was hit by a separate shot between

frames 235 and 240 which followed the shot which hit the President’s

neck, it would follow that : (1) the assassin’s first, shot, assuming

a minimum firing time of 2.3 seconds (or 42 frames), was fired between

frames 193 and 198 when his view was obscured by the oak tree; (2)

President Kennedy continued waving to the crowd after he was hit

and did not begin to react for about 11/2 seconds ; and (3) the first shot,

although hitting no bones in the President’s body, was deflected after

its exit from the President’s neck in such a way that it failed to hit

either the automobile or any of the other occupants.

The one thing not said? That more than one person was firing at the limo...

GIGO Craig... nicely done.

Edited by David Josephs
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Thank you David,

Nicely conveyed.

If I may add just a bit more.

Time-Life Survey-Data Nov25, 1963.

SS re-enactment Dec 2nd-Dec4th, 1963 with final Survey Plat completed on Dec5th, 1963

FBI re-enactment Feb7th, 1964 - A revised Dec5th, 1963 SS Plat was created at this time too.

March16, 1964- The day the Autopsy Surgeons testified, SS Agent Howlett requests a copy of the FBI survey plat of Feb7, 1964.

WC re-enactment completed in May 1964.

FBI Survey Plat 6/25/1964 created, a full month after the WC phony re-enactment of the assassination.

Briefly paraphrased by me.

Full credit to Tom Purvis.

Craig wants you to believe the investigations were Sunday strolls.

Not happening!!!

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Meyers has Towner's camera running at 22.8 frames per sec in order to get his multisyncing to work.

Towner's camera actually ran at 18.3 frames per sec, same as Zapruder's, much more in line with what it's supposed to be.

How much faster does Meyer's have the camera running in terms of time.

22.8/18.3=1.25. So 25% faster.

chris

Getting back to this area, the Towner film consists of 167 total frames.

That would be 160 + 7 missing/spliced frames.

Towner started filming the limo as it turned from Houston onto Elm.

If I was Z and I started filming at the same time as Towner with the same "frame per second" rate I would have a parallel film version of the same time period.

Why is this important?

Well, the WC started there calculations at frame 161 and ended at 313 = 152 frames

They shorted JFK by 15ft. They also created a 1frame per 1ft guide.

Lets add the frames back first.

152 + 15 =167 frames

Gee!! Thats the same amount of frames as the Towner film.

Add them together and it's a total of 334 frames.

When did Shaneyfelt say they stopped the photographic aspect:

Mr. SPECTER. And how was the ending point of that frame sequence, being No. 334, fixed?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. It was fixed as several frames past the shot that hit the President in the head. Frame 313 is the frame showing the shot to the President's head, and it ends at 334.

Or, maybe it was the end of their pre-conceived film work.

Work that equation forward and backward.

chris

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What a mess of a rant David.

The data the WC published had errors. The recreations (all of them) had errrors, which by the very nature of recreation they must. The errors compound. then Davidison (and you by extension) compound them in a vain attempt to make them fit your silly theory that since Altgens states 30 and 15 feet, that there must be a shot near his positon as seen in Altgens.

Garbage in equals garbage out.

And of course we can triangulate Altgens position to see he missed the 30 foot mark by 40 feet..he was 70 away...since that's how far the limo was give or take in A6.

And of course we can also surmise he missed the 15 foot mark because he did not have his camera to his eye when we first see him in Zapruder and if he was doing the zone focusing he suggests he would have needed to be viewing the limo continuously as it approached since his 15 foot focus mark (if he even got that correct) only gives him a 5 foot or so zone of focus. HE HAD TO TRACK IT TO WATCH IT COME INTO FOCUS!

The shot happened much farther up the street, which is why he was frozen with the camera still below his eyes.

Rear facts and solid process...compared to a cornucopia of compounded errors and a silly theory based on proven flawed testimony...

Garbage in, garbage out.

I don't care what the WC said. it was opinion, just like yours and everyone else's. Carried just about as much weight. Don't care if the SBT is true or not. Even if it were it would still never be accepted by ct's like you. I'm simply not interested in arguing it. But hey be my guest, knock yourself out.

The so called calculation in this thread are still going to be a complete mess.

Edited by Craig Lamson
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