Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Thomas Graves]

This is a follow-up to a question raised earlier in this thread concerning the Dr. Pepper bottle Inspector Sawyer is holding in the photo below.

Could this bottle be the same bottle seen on the top step NW corner of the entrance in 4 other photos taken by William Allen?

The answer lies in the sequence of the photos. We know that the bottle on the step appears in two photos taken by Allen during the 12:40 – 1:00 time range. Around 1:00 pm, Larry Florer is arrested on the street and taken to the Sheriff’s office. Allen walks over to the office and takes 6 pictures of Florer in custody. After several minutes in the office, Allen leaves and begins walking North on Houston Street back towards the TSBD. As he approaches, he takes two photos of the building.

The next photo on the Allen Contact Sheet is the photo showing Sawyer on the steps with the Dr. Pepper bottle and a cigarette.

The very next photo after that shows the 3 tramps being escorted in front of the TSBD. We know the tramps photo is taken around, or just after 2 pm.

So, being sandwiched between the Florer photos and the Tramps photos places the Sawyer photo somewhere in the 1:15 – 2:00 time period. The Dr. Pepper bottle Sawyer is holding is not the same bottle seen on the top step in the other Allen photos.

From a logical standpoint, it makes sense. When Inspector Sawyer arrived at the TSBD, in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, he became a very busy man. After going up to the 4^th floor, taking a quick look, and coming back down to the entrance, he setup a command post. Numerous witnesses and suspects were arriving to be interviewed or give statements. These included Howard Brennan, Amos Euins, Charles Brehm, Arnold Rowland and wife, Robert Edwards, Larry Florer, and others.

It seems unlikely Sawyer would have taken a cigarette and Dr. Pepper break during this hectic period when the assassin was also potentially in the building.

Sawyer was out front of the TSBD until 4 pm. It seems reasonable that he would have taken a break later in the afternoon after the building had been cleared and the witnesses and suspects delivered to Decker and Fritz’s offices.

So, for anyone keeping score, there was one Dr. Pepper bottle allegedly found on the 6^th floor (with photos showing Johnson bringing it out front), another bottle left on the top step in the NW corner of the entrance, and a third bottle being held by Inspector Sawyer in the Allen photo.

edited for syntax.

Richard,

I like your analysis of the sequence of the Allen photographs, and your conclusion that the Dr. Pepper bottle that Inspector Sawyer is holding is not the same one that is visible on the steps in the two photos taken by Allen sometime between 12:40 and 1:00.

My "analysis" of the situation is based on the fact that Inspector Sawyer is casually smoking while holding the Dr. Pepper.

Could it be he got thirsty for a soda pop while standing in the hot sun in that coat-and-tie uniform?

He obviously wasn't concerned about being photographed while smoking in uniform, so it makes sense that he wasn't concerned about being photographed drinking a soda pop, either. That's why I figure the bottle was his.

What the heck, if you're a high-level policeman and you're gonna smoke in front of cameras right after the President of the United States has been assassinated on your "turf", ya might as well drink soda pop, too! You can quench your thirst, calm your nerves, and send the media a message about how important you are!

Question: Would it have been unprofessional (or unreasonable or unrealistic) for Inspector Sawyer to leave his partially drunk soda pop in the shade on the steps at some point, and retrieve it a bit later to "finish it off"?

--Tommy

Edited January 12, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Mark Knight]

In the '60's, there was no social stigma tied to smoking, as there is today.

[David Josephs]

So what soda.bottles are in evidence today?

None.

What does that mean?

BK

Really Bill? Not "William's" or the one from the front steps... I had not put that together...

Means there may have been prints on them that could ID people who should not be identified... if one was a paranoid Conspiracy Realist.

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; there was a sack of some chicken bones and a bottle brought into the identification bureau. I think I still have that sack and bottle down there. The chicken bones, I finally threw them away that laid around there. In my talking to the men who were working on that floor, November 25, they stated, one of them stated, he had eaten lunch over there.

Mr. McCLOY. Someone other than Oswald?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; so I discarded it, or disconnected it with being with Oswald. Incidentally, Oswald's fingerprints were not on the bottle. I checked that.

Mr. McCLOY. They were not on the bottle?

Mr. DAY. No, sir

Yet the documentation for such an act as well as the storage of evidence is not available... or even mentioned in Day's reports...

Were WILLIAMS' prints on the bottle?

[Richard Hocking]

So what soda.bottles are in evidence today?

None.

What does that mean?

BK

Really Bill? Not "William's" or the one from the front steps... I had not put that together...

Means there may have been prints on them that could ID people who should not be identified... if one was a paranoid Conspiracy Realist.

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; there was a sack of some chicken bones and a bottle brought into the identification bureau. I think I still have that sack and bottle down there. The chicken bones, I finally threw them away that laid around there. In my talking to the men who were working on that floor, November 25, they stated, one of them stated, he had eaten lunch over there.

Mr. McCLOY. Someone other than Oswald?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; so I discarded it, or disconnected it with being with Oswald. Incidentally, Oswald's fingerprints were not on the bottle. I checked that.

Mr. McCLOY. They were not on the bottle?

Mr. DAY. No, sir

Yet the documentation for such an act as well as the storage of evidence is not available... or even mentioned in Day's reports...

Were WILLIAMS' prints on the bottle?

Another fascinating glimpse into the DPD investigation of the murder of the President. If it could not be used to establish Oswald's guilt, it was not considered evidence.

Too bad they never tested the bottle on the Entrance step for prints.

[Gene Kelly]

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20949

Since this thread should concentrate on OSWALD LEAVING THE TSBD, I started a thread about potential trajectories and WCD 298

DJ

I agree David ... sorry if this tended to divert the thread. Thanks to James for an interesting scale mockup. Looks like a West face shooter would have had a very difficult line of sight and a small time window of opportunity, even with a slowed down limousine. Perhaps it was nearer the elevator shaft (for egress), or some other consideration. Its hard for me to belive that - of all the locations possible - that one would be selected (Dal Tex looks ideal from the mockup). But I still have a strong bias towards more careful planners (shooters in places other than TSBD) and maximum diversion (focused on the TSBD).

Back to that figure in the doorway ... I went back to some other threads to read up on Billy Lovelady. If indeed he had on a striped shirt, then it's certainly not him. And using Sean's logic of elimination (i.e. most likely a person who worked in the building as opposed to someone walking in off the street), then a strong case can be made for it being Oswald. I find it interesting that the figure stays tucked in the alcove for the entire passing of the motorcade, which suggests he wasn't that interested in seeing the President. He also had to still be there as Baker runs up to the building. I also went back to the beginning of Bill Kelly's thread and pondered his original question. What's now unclear to me is if the prayer man (ostensibly Oswald) goes back into the building, or leaves from the alcove shortly after the Baker encounter. Is it Harvey leaving the TSBD, to begin his journey via the Craig sighting ... or Lee doing his "chores" as operatives call them?

[David Josephs]

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20949

Since this thread should concentrate on OSWALD LEAVING THE TSBD, I started a thread about potential trajectories and WCD 298

DJ

I agree David ... sorry if this tended to divert the thread. Thanks to James for an interesting scale mockup. Looks like a West face shooter would have had a very difficult line of sight and a small time window of opportunity, even with a slowed down limousine. Perhaps it was nearer the elevator shaft (for egress), or some other consideration. Its hard for me to belive that - of all the locations possible - that one would be selected (Dal Tex looks ideal from the mockup). But I still have a strong bias towards more careful planners (shooters in places other than TSBD) and maximum diversion (focused on the TSBD).

Back to that figure in the doorway ... I went back to some other threads to read up on Billy Lovelady. If indeed he had on a striped shirt, then it's certainly not him. And using Sean's logic of elimination (i.e. most likely a person who worked in the building as opposed to someone walking in off the street), then a strong case can be made for it being Oswald. I find it interesting that the figure stays tucked in the alcove for the entire passing of the motorcade, which suggests he wasn't that interested in seeing the President. He also had to still be there as Baker runs up to the building. I also went back to the beginning of Bill Kelly's thread and pondered his original question. What's now unclear to me is if the prayer man (ostensibly Oswald) goes back into the building, or leaves from the alcove shortly after the Baker encounter. Is it Harvey leaving the TSBD, to begin his journey via the Craig sighting ... or Lee doing his "chores" as operatives call them?

I think one has to accept that the Baker/Truly lunchroom scene did not happen... that they encountered someone on the stairs that was neither LEE or HARVEY, and if that really is HARVEY on the steps he seems overly relaxed afterwards to be just standing around... he has to know some of the things going on around him...

Did Lovelady button his shirt afterward... it sure appears to be closed in Martin's film and afterward...

Has everyone else been eliminated? Molina and some of the others mentioned earlier in the thread whose location was not known...

DJ

[Mark Haley]

Re Lovelady's shirt.

Buttoned or unbuttoned?

There is a very brief moment in the Martin film where Lovelady moves into a position where you can see his shirt is unbuttoned.

I'm currently on an iPad and not able to post a frame capture. However there is an article on precisely this subject here:

http://22november1963.org.uk/oswald-on-tsbd-front-steps

I don't believe that 'Prayer Man' could be seen from Altgens position in 'Altgens 6' so it seems clear to me that Lovelady isn't Prayer Man.

From the footage that is available I think it's highly unlikely that Prayer Man could have seen the President actually get shot. For a few moments whoever it is wouldn't have been aware what was actually happening.

I think Oswald might have been Prayer Man but don't know how it can ever be proven with 100% certainty. If it was Oswald imagine what must've been going through his mind as the situation dawned on him.

[Richard Hocking]

Prayerman is not Lovelady.

They appear close to each other in a frame from Weigman.

Within seconds of the last shot fired, Shelley and Lovelady leave the entrance and make their way down the Elm St. extension (visible in the Couch film). Shelley and Lovelady are well down the street by the time Baker makes it to the entrance. Prayerman is still on the top step as Baker approaches the entrance.

Also, Oswald (Prayerman) is seen in a storage room on the first floor when Ochus Campbell comes back into the building. There is a storage room right under the stairs in the entrance lobby. There is one other small storage room at the back (North end) of the first floor. It would have been one of those two. So he definitely went back into the building.

[Richard Hocking]

Tommy wrote:

"... Question: Would it have been unprofessional (or unreasonable or unrealistic) for Inspector Sawyer to leave his partially drunk soda pop in the shade on the steps at some point, and retrieve it a bit later to "finish it off"? "

The first Allen photo showing the bottle on the NW corner step was taken about 12:42.

Again going back to Sawyer's actions when he arrived at the TSBD at 12:34: He immediately went up the elevator to the 4th floor, quickly surveyed the floor, and returned to the first floor. In his testimony, Sawyer estimates his return time to the front entrance as 12:38 where he immediately goes outside and sets up a Command Post. No mention of walking to the back of the TSBD where the Dr. Pepper machine is located.

[Gene Kelly]

Do you guys still think a shot from the 5th floor West face of the building is feasible? As I think it through, it make sense. Not expert in the trajectories, but... with the entire world focused (for 50 years) on the open windows of the 6th floor South side of the building, it amazes me that other locations were not more rigorously investigated.

Gene, according to first DPD reports , the rifle was found on the "fifth" floor.

Ray: you are correct, and I went back to look at original references regarding this very basic fact. It's often overlooked, and since no one ever challenged this anomaly and Warren didn't highlight it, it's lost in the enormous detail of the case. I also think many write this off as a confused and honest error (i.e. they really meant the 6th floor). It's unclear who (DPD officer) actually found the rifle, or when. Some accounts initially describe it as a Mauser. If we discount the shaky paper bag and curtains legend, then someone had to get it into the building at some convenient time. In a murder case, is there anything more basic than finding the weapon? I sure wish that I could interrogate Sgt. Gerald Hill. I'm now convinced that Oswald is “prayer man”, just not sure if it’s Harvey or Lee. But solving one mystery usually opens three new ones in this case. Accepting the amazing evidence that Oswald was in the doorway during the shooting inevitably leads to a renewed line of inquiry about what was going on inside the TSBD in those first key minutes. - Gene

[William Kelly]

Those who reject the second floor lunchroom encounter that exonerates Oswald, are only fooling thselves, and it has yet got be established that Oswald is Prayerman, though he is a candidate.

BK

[David Josephs]

Those who reject the second floor lunchroom encounter that exonerates Oswald, are only fooling thselves, and it has yet got be established that Oswald is Prayerman, though he is a candidate.

BK

OK Bill, I'll bite...

Please help me understand why Baker's affidavit and his testimony are so different... just cause the 2nd floor lunchroom charade exonerates Oswald IF TRUE, does not mean it happened like that... right?

It is my opinion that Truly, Baker and ultimately Fritz (with his notes) change the unidentified person coming down the stairs into the lunchroom encounter. If anything, leaving OSWALD where Baker sees him on the stairs in the affidavit is much worse for Oswald, which I think is what you are saying - So the discussion becomes about CAN HE GET THERE IN TIME, rather than WAS HE EVER THERE AT ALL, which is exactly what was desired.

Who else was NOT OUTSIDE or at a window, worked for the TSBD/Truly enough that he'd be easily identified, and would be coming DOWN from above the 4th floor?

and why does this person need to remain anonymous?

Add now add the LEE/HARVEY scenario, especially if Truly is aware of it and knows that it is LEE coming down the stairs... Baker would know no better.

No, Prayerman is not yet established as Oswald.... or whether LEE and HARVEY were on premises at the same time - as it would appear...

unless Lee is Prayerman

[William Kelly]

There are countless possible scenarios but they must be consistent with what we know to be true, and we have details of the 2nd floor lunchroom incident from Truly, Baker, Oswald and Reid, and I believe them.

I also believe they ran into another suspect yet to be identified, just as the two plan clothes DPD officers Mooney passed on the steps have not been identified.

I just took exception to the statement that "we all agree" the lunchroom incident didn't occur and Oswald is Prayerman.

BK

[David Josephs]

I just took exception to the statement that "we all agree" the lunchroom incident didn't occur and Oswald is Prayerman.

I don't recall writing that... and I know I have never said Prayerman IS Oswald...

I did post: I think one has to accept that the Baker/Truly lunchroom scene did not happen... that they encountered someone on the stairs that was neither LEE or HARVEY, and if that really is HARVEY on the steps he seems overly relaxed afterwards to be just standing around... he has to know some of the things going on around him...

we have details of the 2nd floor lunchroom incident from Truly, Baker, Oswald and Reid, and I believe them.

A few thoughts Bill....

Truly does not say anything about this encounter to Lumpkin or Fritz when he informs them that OSWALD is missing... He can't possbily know where everyone of his employees is, yet if his testimony is correct he sees Oswlad not 20-30 minutes before in the lunchroom... within 2 minutes of the shooting...

If this had actually happened - I wounder how he gets from Oswald in the lunchroom - the last time Truly sees him - to "he's the only employee missing"

Mr. TRULY. Then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes at a time like that--I noticed some of my boys were over in the west corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over there taking their names and addresses, and so forth.

There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other employees, like office people's names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was not among these boys.

So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there.

First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell--I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him, he looked around and said no.

Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?

Mr. TRULY. Lee Oswald. I said, "Have you seen him around lately," and he said no.

So Mr. Campbell is standing there, and I said, "I have a boy over here missing. I don't know whether to report it or not." Because I had another one or two out then. I didn't know whether they were all there or not. He said, "What do you think"? And I got to thinking. He said, "Well, we better do it anyway." It was so quick after that.

So I picked the phone up then and called Mr. Aiken, at the warehouse, and got the boy's name and general description and telephone number and address at Irving.

Seems that HARVEY LEE OSWALD was in the corner there giving names - or was this just the order it was typed up... I can't seem to find the original handwritten lists that were prepared by Westphal.

In either case Westphal to Revill to Gannaway, if he was already gone, how does he make the top of the list and with the wrong name?

With regards to Baker.... how can he sign an affidavit to one story that has no lunchroom at all and then change the story later... and still be believed, given how it was not possible unless Oswald had remained in the lunchroom the entire time and was simply doping his thing. How does Baker's evidence, in the order it was offered, support the lunchroom encounter even happening...

The only thing we know of OSWALD's telling the story is what Fritz wrote in his notes....

"claims 2nd floor Coke when

off came in"

yet he also has Baker's statement, the affidavit, of the ONLY DPD cop to have seen Oswald other than Craig who he didn't believe anyway, and there is no mention of the 2nd floor or a Coke...

and finally Reid... who I happen to believe sees Oswald in the Lunchroom before she heads out.... and sees him again walking thru her office FROM the direction of the stairs/lunchroom - but she never witnessed this Baker/Truly encounter, so I fail to understand how she offered a detail account of that encounter....

Please help me understand why a same day affidavit is not more believeable than testimony and withheld interrogation notes from well after the fact....

and since the person REID sees is only wearing a TSHIRT... I am under the impression this is LEE and not Harvey... and is why the story had to be changed....

Even in the countless scenarios... whoever STAIRWAYMAN is... like PRAYERMAN, we should be able to figure it out by process of illimination - who would Truly know well enough to say he works here and was above the 4th floor within 2 minutes of the shooting... Dougherty?

I value your opinions quite a lot Bill, so when you say you believe the lunchroom encounter story... I'd like to know how you reconcile all the contradictory info

DJ

[Thomas Graves]

There are countless possible scenarios but they must be consistent with what we know to be true, and we have details of the 2nd floor lunchroom incident from Truly, Baker, Oswald and Reid, and I believe them.

I also believe they ran into another suspect yet to be identified, just as the two plan clothes DPD officers Mooney passed on the steps have not been identified.

I just took exception to the statement that "we all agree" the lunchroom incident didn't occur and Oswald is Prayerman.

BK

Bill,

Luke Mooney didn't say he saw two plainclothes DPD officers on the steps.

He told the Warren Commission he passed some plainclothes men, whom he "believed" were deputy sheriffs, on the stairs.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/mooney.htm

Mooney was a Deputy Sheriff himself but worked mostly in the "Writ and Execution" Department, so I guess it's understandable that he would recognize some other deputy sheriffs but not know their names.

On the other hand, maybe he did know their names and that's why he didn't mention passing them on the stairs when he made his report to ...The Sheriff's Department.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/mooney1.htm

It is interesting that Mr. Ball didn't ask Mooney their names when he was giving his WC testimony...

In When They Kill A President Roger Craig says he and deputy sheriffs Eugene Boone and Luke Mooney went up the stairs, together, directly to the sixth floor.

But Luke Mooney said he took an elevator with two girls to the second floor where the elevator lost electrical power. He said he searched the second floor briefly and them went up the stairs to the sixth floor by himself, passing the plainclothes guys who were coming down.

(Is there any evidence in this case that is not ambiguous or contradicted by other evidence?)

--Tommy

Edited February 1, 2014 by Thomas Graves