Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Bill Miller]

10 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

You have no invested interest in the outcome?

Could have fooled us all Bill!

No book - no video - no invested interest. As far as fooling "us" .... I think some folks are doing that well enough on their own.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Bill Miller

[Sandy Larsen]

26 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

That is just it - you keep ignoring the order of the events that Shelley gave and replacing it with the latter 3 -  4 minute remark which was related to the tour time. In my view that is just another 'the Weigman's on the ground' error. But then again I do not have an investment in the outcome.

Aha! So you do believe that both Shelley and Lovelady made the very same mistake in their testimonies, both saying that it was about 3 minutes before Calvery arrived and Truly and Baker went into the TSBD!

What are the odds of both of them making that very same mistake?? Astronomical against it, I would say.

What you are suggesting is nonsense IMO. Either that 3 minute figure is REAL, or both Shelley and Lovelady were COACHED into testifying that way. There is simply no other explanation.

[Robin Unger]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

The following also contradicts the two guys walking down the extension being Shelley and Lovelady.

Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Of course, Shelley could be lying here. He does contradict Lovelady on this point... where they were when they saw Baker/Truly.

Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.

[Sandy Larsen]

35 minutes ago, Robin Unger said:

 

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

The following also contradicts the two guys walking down the extension being Shelley and Lovelady.

Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Of course, Shelley could be lying here. He does contradict Lovelady on this point... where they were when they saw Baker/Truly.

Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.

It's not clear to me if my statement above is being challenged. Allow me to explain, just in case it is being challenged.

Here is what I contend:

The following contradicts the two guys walking down the extension being Shelley and Lovelady.

Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

If we look at the Darnell/Couch (or whatever it is) video, at the time Baker arrives near the front of the TSBD entrance, the two men said to be Shelley and Lovelady are way down the Elm Street extension, in the middle of the road. Nowhere near the island.

So if what Shelley said is true, then those two men cannot be him and Lovelady.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Alistair Briggs]

50 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Aha! So you do believe that both Shelley and Lovelady made the very same mistake in their testimonies, both saying that it was about 3 minutes before Calvery arrived and Truly and Baker went into the TSBD!

What are the odds of both of them making that very same mistake?? Astronomical against it, I would say.

What you are suggesting is nonsense IMO. Either that 3 minute figure is REAL, or both Shelley and Lovelady were COACHED into testifying that way. There is simply no other explanation.

Personally, I disagree that there is simply no other explanation.

After the event, but before giving testimony, I'm sure that Lovelady and Shelley would have conversed with each other about the event - not neccesarily in a 'let's get our stories straight' kind of way, but more just a general discussion of what they each saw and did etc. Couple that with the reasonable assumption that each (individually or together) would have spoken with other people too... Also, one of them may have had a 'stronger personality' than the other and in conversation, perhaps with other people, mentioned that a couple of minutes after such and such happened, this happened, and the other who maybe thought that it had only been a minute or so, accepted that it may have been longer... etc etc I mean anything could have been said/happened between them and others after the event and before giving testimony that may have led to them both coming to the 'conclusion', individually(ish) that it was 3 minutes without the 3 minutes being an accurate time or something they were coached to do.

Don't get me wrong, Im not offering that up as THE explanation, merely that it could be AN explanation.

 Kindest regards

(P.S. there is something really strange about it all. I mean if the difference in timing between what Shelley and Lovelady said (3 minutes) and the time Baker is said to have ran in (30secs) was a lot less, say 1 minute and 45 seconds, then that could be believed as a simple timing error somewhere. But very hard to reconcile the gap between 30 seconds and 3 minutes indeed. And that's not even taking in to account the timings that others have 'testified' to...)

It's no wonder this is such a hot topic.

[Robin Unger]

Regarding the Baker Timeline

Baker was riding in between camera cars (2) and (3) on the right hand side.

Couch and Darnell were in camera car (3)

[Robin Unger]

Camera car (2) next to Officer Bakers motorcycle.

Officer Joe Marshall Smith running down the Elm st Extension.

 

 

[James R Gordon]

Thanks Robin,

Do we have any kind of time stamp for this image? I know Lovelady and Shelly are not insight at this point, but they are out of picture and making their way along Elm.

It would be helpful to know approximately when this image was taken.

James

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

That is just it - you keep ignoring the order of the events that Shelley gave and replacing it with the latter 3 -  4 minute remark which was related to the tour time. In my view that is just another 'the Weigman's on the ground' error. But then again I do not have an investment in the outcome.

Clutching again, poor man.

Having made an honest mistake with pronouncing a name and comparing it with YOUR belief of an interpretation of the actual testimony. which is nothing more than shameless speculation.

I really wonder what your agenda here at EF actually is......

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

Regarding the Baker Timeline

Baker was riding in between camera cars (2) and (3) on the right hand side.

Couch and Darnell were in camera car (3)

http://www.prayer-man.com/marrion-baker-in-hughes/

From a reactionary and observatory pov there is already quite a bit to question Baker for.

[Bill Miller]

7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Aha! So you do believe that both Shelley and Lovelady made the very same mistake in their testimonies, both saying that it was about 3 minutes before Calvery arrived and Truly and Baker went into the TSBD!

What are the odds of both of them making that very same mistake?? Astronomical against it, I would say.

What you are suggesting is nonsense IMO. Either that 3 minute figure is REAL, or both Shelley and Lovelady were COACHED into testifying that way. There is simply no other explanation.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. 

Bill Shelley was coached into saying the shots sounded like they came not from the alleged snipers nest, but rather from a location west of the building.

11/22/63 affidavit of Shelley as to where the shots came from  -  "I heard what sounded like three shots. I could not tell from where they were coming from"

Did the WC coach Shelley to then say the shots came from the west -  "Sounded like it came from the west"

Then BIll Shelley was coached to say that the very next thing that happened was to have Gloria Calvery come running up to he and Lovelady.

 

Did the WC coach Shelley as to what happened next -  "Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute."

 

Did the WC coach Bill Shelley where on the Island did they go after meeting Calvery and if it was straight across the street -  "Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?" -  "There's concrete between the two streets"  -  "Yes, where they split."

 

Did the WC coach Bill Shelley to say the following -

Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.

Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

That would be the Island where Shelley had said, "old island and we stopped there for a minute"

 

So yes, I believe there was some confusion at that point of the questioning as to when they met Calvery and estimating seeing Truly and Officer Baker enter the building after three to four minutes as it is in total conflict with the several things he had just said about the timing of those events. That they saw Calvery just prior to reaching the Island off to the right near the concrete. That they heard a noise and turned to look back and see Baker and Truly enter the building. That they remained at that place on the Island for around a minute before walking on to the RR yard where they went as far as the tracks. That they spent about 1.5 to 2 minutes there and returned to the TSBD while taking there sweet time walking back. All totaling about 3 to 4 minutes. Nothing in that exchange makes it look as though Shelley had been coaxed in my view. That had Bill Shelley had been coaxed that he would have not said any of those things in the order he gave them. There was only the one place where the reference was made that the meeting Calvery and then seeing Truly and Baker about to enter the building was around 3 to 4 minutes following the shooting. And after that disjointed exchange  took place ... the following was testified to which further demonstrates the confusion that took place concerning the 3 to 4 minute estimate -

Bill Shelley again said to Mr Ball what he said early on in his testimony about his seeing Truly and Officer Baker entering the building as Ball asked again what did they then do -

Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
MMr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.
Mr. BALL - Were they moving at the time, walking or running?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, they were moving, yes.

Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.

 

That is my opinion as an investigator and having spoken to countless witnesses over the years. Shelley, nor Ball was even aware of the error in saying those observations were made after 3 to 4 minutes because it went right over their head when Shelley followed that moment by repeating what he said about seeing Truly and Baker before ever going to the RR Yard. I have not taken the time to share this everyone so to burst anyone's bubble, but to offer an opinion for others to consider.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Bill Miller

[Sandy Larsen]

29 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

 

7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Aha! So you do believe that both Shelley and Lovelady made the very same mistake in their testimonies, both saying that it was about 3 minutes before Calvery arrived and Truly and Baker went into the TSBD!

What are the odds of both of them making that very same mistake?? Astronomical against it, I would say.

What you are suggesting is nonsense IMO. Either that 3 minute figure is REAL, or both Shelley and Lovelady were COACHED into testifying that way. There is simply no other explanation.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. 

Bill Shelley was coached into saying the shots sounded like they came not from the alleged snipers nest, but rather from a location west of the building.

11/22/63 affidavit of Shelley as to where the shots came from  -  "I heard what sounded like three shots. I could not tell from where they were coming from"

Did the WC coach Shelley to then say the shots came from the west -  "Sounded like it came from the west"

Then BIll Shelley was coached to say that the very next thing that happened was to have Gloria Calvery come running up to he and Lovelady.

 

Did the WC coach Shelley as to what happened next -  "Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute."

 

Did the WC coach Bill Shelley where on the Island did they go after meeting Calvery and if it was straight across the street -  "Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?" -  "There's concrete between the two streets"  -  "Yes, where they split."

 

Did the WC coach Bill Shelley to say the following -

Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.

Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

That would be the Island where Shelley had said, "old island and we stopped there for a minute"

 

So yes, I believe there was some confusion at that point of the questioning as to when they met Calvery and estimating seeing Truly and Officer Baker enter the building after three to four minutes as it is in total conflict with the several things he had just said about the timing of those events. That they saw Calvery just prior to reaching the Island off to the right near the concrete. That they heard a noise and turned to look back and see Baker and Truly enter the building. That they remained at that place on the Island for around a minute before walking on to the RR yard where they went as far as the tracks. That they spent about 1.5 to 2 minutes there and returned to the TSBD while taking there sweet time walking back. All totaling about 3 to 4 minutes. Nothing in that exchange makes it look as though Shelley had been coaxed in my view. That had Bill Shelley had been coaxed that he would have not said any of those things in the order he gave them. There was only the one place where the reference was made that the meeting Calvery and then seeing Truly and Baker about to enter the building was around 3 to 4 minutes following the shooting. And after that disjointed exchange  took place ... the following was testified to which further demonstrates the confusion that took place concerning the 3 to 4 minute estimate -

Bill Shelley again said to Mr Ball what he said early on in his testimony about his seeing Truly and Officer Baker entering the building as Ball asked again what did they then do -

Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
MMr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.
Mr. BALL - Were they moving at the time, walking or running?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, they were moving, yes.

Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.

 

That is my opinion as an investigator and having spoken to countless witnesses over the years. Shelley, nor Ball was even aware of the error in saying those observations were made after 3 to 4 minutes because it went right over their head when Shelley followed that moment by repeating what he said about seeing Truly and Baker before ever going to the RR Yard. I have not taken the time to share this everyone so to burst anyone's bubble, but to offer an opinion for others to consider.

Edited just now by Bill Miller

 

That's right folks... if a witness is coached in saying one thing, he must be coached in saying everything. In Bill's world.

Never mind that I never insisted they were coached.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

In another thread just started by Tommy Graves, I was reminded that Vickie Adams testified that she saw Shelley and Lovelady when she exited the stairwell on the first floor. (I had been thinking that it was only Lovelady who testified to that "encounter.") According to Adams, she ran down the stairs immediately after the shooting.

If Adam's is right, then Shelley and Lovelady had to have gone back inside the TSBD soon after the shooting, without having visited the railroad yard at all.

So if Vickie Adams is to be believed -- and I do believe her at the moment -- either all that stuff about walking down Elm St. extension and visiting the railroad yard is pure fabrication, or it is true but separate from Shelley and Lovelady going inside right after the shooting! That is to say, they went back into the TSBD shortly after the shooting, at which time Victoria Adams saw them, and then after that they went outside again and made their excursion down Elm St. extension and the railroad yard.

It's interesting to note that in both Shelley and Lovelady's first day affidavits, they said they went right back into the TSBD.

EDIT: Tommy just reminded me that some of Victoria Adam's testimony was changed, as described in "The Girl on the Stairs." I need to check that out as it could affect what I wrote above.

EDIT: It turns out that Victoria Adams did say that her Shelley/Lovelady sighting did NOT occur.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Bill Miller]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

That's right folks... if a witness is coached in saying one thing, he must be coached in saying everything. In Bill's world.

Never mind that I never insisted they were coached.

You have an amazing way of not seeing the forest for the trees so-to-speak. I thought I was pretty clear that if Shelley was coached to say that he didn't see Baker and Truly enter the building after he had been to the RR yard and was returning to the TSBD - all three to four minutes later, then why was he allowed to say several times prior and once after that in the same interview that these things happened as soon as he crossed the street and well before ever going to the  RR yard?

That is the part that goes beyond reason in my book and would be irresponsible for me as an investigator not to mention it. I have never heard of someone being coached to say something one time in an interview that he had previously said just the opposite of in the same interview twice before and once more before the interview has ended, I am more inclined to believe that Shelley made a the one mistake and didn't even catch it before thinking he made the same mistake over and over and the one time he gave a different time frame was the correct one.

I would however be curious as to whether you would not agree with me if the same reasoning was pointed out on a similar matter unrelated to the assassination.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Bill Miller

[Sandy Larsen]

16 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

You have an amazing way of not seeing the forest for the trees so-to-speak. I thought I was pretty clear that if Shelley was coached to say that he didn't see Baker and Truly enter the building after he had been to the RR yard and was returning to the TSBD - all three to four minutes later, then why was he allowed to say several times prior and once after that in the same interview that these things happened as soon as he crossed the street and well before ever going to the  RR yard?

That is the part that goes beyond reason in my book and would be irresponsible for me as an investigator not to mention it. I have never heard of someone being coached to say something one time in an interview that he had previously said just the opposite of in the same interview twice before and once more before the interview has ended, I am more inclined to believe that Shelley made a the one mistake and didn't even catch it before thinking he made the same mistake over and over and the one time he gave a different time frame was the correct one.

I would however be curious as to whether you would not agree with me if the same reasoning was pointed out on a similar matter unrelated to the assassination.

I don't understand what the coaching you talk about in your post has to do with a (hypothetical) coaching to say 3 to 4 minutes instead of 20 to 30 seconds.