Pat Speer- I am confused (so what else is new?)...re: JFK head wound

[Pat Speer]

From Pat Speer:

"The line I've highlighted is not remotely true."

Care to elaborate?

Here's the line:

HOWEVER, the Parkland and Bethesda witnesses, WITHOUT any communication between them, miraculously all placed the large gaping head wound at the BACK of JFK's head. What a frickin' coincidence, eh, Pat?

All? If you've been following the thread on Groden's new book, you'll see that he's been caught trying to pass off a still shot from Stone's JFK as a previously unseen autopsy photo. His work with the "back of the head" witnesses was almost as misleading.

The flip flops depicted in the picture above show how we should never disregard cognitive science, which has shown how people's recollections can change over time. It's as if Peters, Custer and O'connor were supporters of the Speer theory (left) and the back-of-the-head theory at the same time! (right).

In the above photos, Peters is clearly showing the back of the head to be gone. Both the Peters and the Custer photos are from the very same interview.

I think the problem is that several witnesses ARE both back-of-the-head witnesses and side witnesses, especially O'Connor, Humes, and Custer. What do these three have in common? They are from BETHESDA- this is where Horne thinks there was manipulation/ alteration to make the wound more obtuse/ larger.

It would seem this thread, in entirety, proves two things:

1) Not all the witnesses agreed unanimously and some hyperbole is in effect;

2) the work of Lifton, Horne, and even Livingstone is corroborated.

Instead of "remember the Alamo", REMEMBER HUMES- he ALSO said the wound involved the occipital area in the autopsy report agreed upon by Finck, Boswell, etc

What do you mean "the work of Lifton, Horne and even Livingstone" is corroborated? Lifton and Horne say the autopsy photos of the back of the head are the real deal; Livingstone says the photos have been altered. Do you mean that people told them they saw a wound on the back of the head?

No one disputes that. The question is 1) whether these people--many of whom later claimed they'd been wrong--were accurate in their statements, and 2) whether the conclusion one may come to that they were probably correct outweighs the reasons to believe they were wrong.

I've been asking these questions for years now, and have never received an articulate response.

The face sheet was indisputably created on the night of the autopsy. It shows a back wound in a location thoroughly at odds with the autopsist's conclusion the bullet entered this location from above and then exited the President's throat. The location of the wound on the face sheet was considered so damaging, in fact, that the Justice Department mounted an obvious cover-up, in which the supposedly sworn to silence Dr.s Boswell and Humes were dangled in front of the media while claiming the location on the fact sheet was in error and the location on the Rydberg drawings was accurate. As discussed in my 2013 Lancer presentation, It is THE smoking gun of the cover-up.

So HOW is it that the face sheet fails to show an exit wound on the back of the head? I mean, the Rydberg drawings created for Humes showed an exit wound at the top of the back of the head, so it's 100% clear there was very little or no concern that a wound at the back of the head would suggest a shot from the front. So why was there no exit wound on the back of the head on the face sheet?

Edited December 26, 2013 by Pat Speer

[Vince Palamara]

As usual, you make good (counter) arguments, Pat. Ok- why did Humes say "occipital"?

[Andric Perez]

I was under the impression that Speer had dedicaded only chapter 18d to the wound-location controversy. I now realize chapter 18c covers the matter extensively as well. In this chapter we learn that 4 witnesses before the Parkland doctors saw Kennedy described a wound on the right side (no mention of posterior location): Zapruder, the Newmans and Burkley.)

What mental trick makes people view a large posterior wound as lateral, even if they all saw the wound very briefly? Without a convincing answer to this question, we will have to conclude that the back-of-the-head theory has suffered a severe blow in this thread and is now in defense mode. The Parkland witnesses are sandwiched between two sets of rivals: Bethesda and Dealy Plaza (plus themselves, as we have seen by reading their often self-contradictory statements).

Edited December 26, 2013 by Andric Perez

[Ken Davies]

Mr. Newman, in his Nov. 22,1963 deposition stated that JFK jumped up and was standing up when he was hit. Mrs. Newman in her deposition on the same date said that JFK jumped up and had his hands over his head at the FIRST shot.

Dr. Burkley was not a witness to the shooting and saw JFK at the same time as the Parkland doctors.

[John Crites]

another honest, innocent medical professional

[Pat Speer]

As usual, you make good (counter) arguments, Pat. Ok- why did Humes say "occipital"?

A lot of the confusion, IMO, comes from the nature of the wound. The wound went from the forehead back to the occipital region, in that the skull was fractured on almost the entire right side. Only one part of the wound was missing scalp and skull, however, and that was the area above and in front of the ear.

When confronted with this wound at autopsy, Humes and Boswell weren't sure what to do. So they did what almost anyone would do--peeled back the scalp to get a better look at the wound. When Humes did this, however, the skull at the back of the head collapsed. They then removed the brain.

So therein lies the problem. How big was this wound? How to describe it? Dr. Boswell's measurements for the wound, 17 by 10 if I recall, almost certainly reflects the size of the wound after the scalp had been peeled back and the skull collapsed. The autopsy report cited a slightly smaller number, 13 cm if I recall. This, I suspect was Humes' approximation for the size of the wound before he pulled some skull pieces out to remove the brain.

So...the back of the head--and yes even the occipital region--was damaged, but not blown out of the skull. The damage to this area was so extensive, in fact, that it pretty much destroys the LN argument an intact bullet entered there.

And that's the source of my frustration...the medical evidence clearly suggests the likelihood of an additional shooter...if only people would look at it.

[Pat Speer]

Mr. Newman, in his Nov. 22,1963 deposition stated that JFK jumped up and was standing up when he was hit. Mrs. Newman in her deposition on the same date said that JFK jumped up and had his hands over his head at the FIRST shot.

Dr. Burkley was not a witness to the shooting and saw JFK at the same time as the Parkland doctors.

Right, and Burkley told Kilduff the wound was above the temple, where the Newmans and Zapruder also saw the wound. Now ain't that a coinkydink!

[Ray Mitcham]

"Grossman said that he and Dr. Clark, together, lifted President Kennedy's head so as to be able to observe the damage. It was his impression in Trauma Room One that no one else even knew there was a head wound until the head was lifted up a bit by Clark. Horne stated that Grossman was making the point that the wound was not enormous, that you really had to lift up the head to see this wound. He said he observed two wounds to President Kennedy's head. One was a circular puncture in the occipital region and one was a plate of bone in the parietal region. He believes the bullet entered through the tentorium, which is the membrane surrounding the cerebellum, and went through the right hemisphere of the cerebellum before passing through the right cerebral hemisphere index and through the right parietal bone. Repeatedly during the interview Dr. Grossman asked the ARRB staffers to interview Dr. Kemp Clark. He felt that Dr. Clark's observations would be more accurate than his."

If as you say, Pat, "the wound went from the forehead back to the occipital region, in that the skull was fractured on almost the entire right side. Only one part of the wound was missing scalp and skull, however, and that was the area above and in front of the ear." why on earth did these two doctors and others not see the wound as you describe it? A wound of that nature would have been obvious.

Dr. Clark was the head of neurosurgery at Parkland. He did examine President Kennedy's wounds up close and was the doctor who pronounced him dead. Drs. Clark and McClelland were at the head of the gurney and had the best view of President Kennedy's head wound. Both testified to the Warren Commission.

Dr. Clark -

"I then examined the wounds in the back of President's head. This is a large gaping wound in the

right posterior part

with cerebral and cerebellar tissue being damaged and exposed."

Dr. McClelland

"As I took the position at the head of the table that I have already described to help out with the tracheotomy I was in such a position that I could very closely examine the head wound, and I noted that the

right posterior portion of the skull had been extremely blasted.

It had been shattered apparently by the force of the shot so that the parietal bone was protruded up through the scalp. It seemed to be fractured almost along its right posterior half as well as some of the occipital bone being fractured in its lateral half and this sprung open the bones that I mentioned in such a way that you could actually look down into the skull cavity itself and see that probably a third or so, at least, of the brain tissue, posterior cerebral tissue and some of the cerebellar tissue had been blasted out."(MD 38)

Edited December 27, 2013 by Ray Mitcham

[Malcolm Ward]

INTERVIEW WITH DENNIS DAVID REGARDING JFK’S BEING BROUGHT INTO THE BETHESDA NAVAL BASE

This interview was conducted in public at the JFK Lancer November in Dallas Conference, November 16, 2001. Gary Severson had contacted Dennis David, and we began tape recording on a couch just outside the meeting rooms. An impromptu audience of perhaps 20-25 persons viewed the interview.

From what his description and mine, yes. Bear in mind this is ’63 and ’92, but from the number, the size, it sounded very similar. And then subsequent to that I also talked about the assassination of William Pitzer. Because on Tuesday, after the autopsy, I don’t know, figure the day after, I had stopped by to see Bill Pitzer, who was head, he was Lt. Commander William Pitzer, he was head of the audiovisual at Bethesda and on staff of their medical school. And he was one of my mentors for the medical service corps program. And I stopped in as I frequently did during the week, I wanted to ask him some questions about the MSC program. Bill was editing a 16mm film of the autopsy. He also had some slides and some black and whites. I was only there for 15 or 20 minutes, I looked at some of them and they were unquestionably, without a doubt, they were of the JFK autopsy. I could see that on the editing. One of the things that Bill and I, [agreed] that it was a frontal entry wound. You know, the wounds were caused by frontal entry wounds, just by what we viewed. We didn’t discuss it a length or go into detail and try to, because you know at that time, and then I left Bethesda in ’65 and I don’t recall that Bill and I ever discussed that again after that. Because on that following Monday, the people who had been in the morgue during the actual autopsy were all taken to John Stover’s office, Captain, he was the commanding officer, and signed statements. Well, what they were were, keep your mouth shut and the threat of court marshal.

Unedited Version Found Here.

http://johndelanewilliams.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/interview-with-dennis-david-regarding.html

[Vince Palamara]

_{Other people dispute Pitzer's presence that night and the whole Daniel Marvin story (Marvin's story sounds fake)}

[Ray Mitcham]

_{Other people dispute Pitzer's presence that night and the whole Daniel Marvin story (Marvin's story sounds fake)}

Vince,Pitzer didn't necessarilly have to be in the room. The film may well have been from the close circuit system, as Dr Humes confirmed,

"In fact, not only did we review them there, but there was a closed circuit television. They [sic] went to Andrews Air Force Base, NIH, and it was a closed circuit instruction.

I agree about that the Marvin story seems way out but stranger things have happened.

[Malcolm Ward]

Interesting article on William Pitzer Here.

Although the available evidence suggests that William Pitzer killed himself, it is possible that he was responsible for recording on film the pre-autopsy on President Kennedy's body [16].

http://www.manuscriptservice.com/PitzerFiles/

[Vince Palamara]

Possibly. When I interviewed Custer and he began to add "details" about Pitzer he never said before (see William Law's book), I said "oh, brother"...

My first impression of Marvin on TMWKK- I salute you for your service, sir...and that story sounds completely made up. The ARRB went a long way toward debunking Marvin's tale *(the "price of ice cream on Sunday", indeed [Marvin's phrase])

[Pat Speer]

When this forum started, it counted among its members Tosh Plumlee, Gerry Hemming, Judyth Baker, and Daniel Marvin. Marvin seemed to have the least amount of support.

[Pat Speer]

"Grossman said that he and Dr. Clark, together, lifted President Kennedy's head so as to be able to observe the damage. It was his impression in Trauma Room One that no one else even knew there was a head wound until the head was lifted up a bit by Clark. Horne stated that Grossman was making the point that the wound was not enormous, that you really had to lift up the head to see this wound. He said he observed two wounds to President Kennedy's head. One was a circular puncture in the occipital region and one was a plate of bone in the parietal region. He believes the bullet entered through the tentorium, which is the membrane surrounding the cerebellum, and went through the right hemisphere of the cerebellum before passing through the right cerebral hemisphere index and through the right parietal bone. Repeatedly during the interview Dr. Grossman asked the ARRB staffers to interview Dr. Kemp Clark. He felt that Dr. Clark's observations would be more accurate than his."

If as you say, Pat, "the wound went from the forehead back to the occipital region, in that the skull was fractured on almost the entire right side. Only one part of the wound was missing scalp and skull, however, and that was the area above and in front of the ear." why on earth did these two doctors and others not see the wound as you describe it? A wound of that nature would have been obvious.

Dr. Clark was the head of neurosurgery at Parkland. He did examine President Kennedy's wounds up close and was the doctor who pronounced him dead. Drs. Clark and McClelland were at the head of the gurney and had the best view of President Kennedy's head wound. Both testified to the Warren Commission.

Dr. Clark -

"I then examined the wounds in the back of President's head. This is a large gaping wound in the

right posterior part

with cerebral and cerebellar tissue being damaged and exposed."

Dr. McClelland

"As I took the position at the head of the table that I have already described to help out with the tracheotomy I was in such a position that I could very closely examine the head wound, and I noted that the

right posterior portion of the skull had been extremely blasted.

It had been shattered apparently by the force of the shot so that the parietal bone was protruded up through the scalp. It seemed to be fractured almost along its right posterior half as well as some of the occipital bone being fractured in its lateral half and this sprung open the bones that I mentioned in such a way that you could actually look down into the skull cavity itself and see that probably a third or so, at least, of the brain tissue, posterior cerebral tissue and some of the cerebellar tissue had been blasted out."(MD 38)

1. Grossman said there was an entrance wound on the back of Kennedy's head where the "back of the head witnesses" supposedly said there was a tangential or exit wound, so he was not a "back of the head" witness and does not support Clark, if that's what you are implying.

2. The testimony of the Parkland witnesses came 4 MONTHS and who knows how many hours of shop talk after the assassination. The testimony is only valid as much as it confirms the earliest statements of the witnesses.

So let's see what they said, shall we? Let's see how many said they saw a blow-out wound low on the back of the head.

PARKLAND MEMORIAL HOSPITAL

ADMISSION NOTE

J. F. KENNEDY

DATE AND HOUR 11/22/63 1620

DOCTOR: Carrico

When patient entered Emergency room on ambulance carriage had slow agonal respiratory efforts and scant cardiac beats by auscultation. Two external wounds were noted. One small penetrating wound of ant. neck in lower 1/3. The other wound had avulsed the calvarium and shredded brain tissue present with profuse oozing. No pulse or blood pressure were present. Pupils were dilated and fixed. A cuffed endotracheal tube was inserted and through the laryngoscope a ragged wound of the trachea was seen immediately below the larynx. The tube was passed past the laceration and the cuff inflated. Respiration using the resp assistor on auto-matic were instituted. Concurrently an IV infusion of lactated Ringer solution was begun via catheter placed in right leg and blood was drawn for type and crossmatch. Type O Rh negative blood was obtained as well as hydrocortisone.

In view of tracheal injury and decreased BS a tracheostomy was performed by Dr. Perry and Bilat. chest tubes inserted. A 2^nd bld infusion was begun in left arm. In addition Dr. Jenkins began resp with anesthesia machine, cardiac monitor, and stimulator attached. Solu cortef IV given (300mg), attempt to control slow oozing from cerebral and cerebellar tissue via packs instituted. Despite these measures as well as external cardiac massage, BP never returned and EKG evidence of cardiac activity was never obtained.

Charles J. Carrico M.D

While Carrico says he saw cerebellar tissue, the working hypothesis of the Dallas doctors was that the bullet entered Kennedy's throat and exploded upwards out of his head. His report thereby does not necessarily suggest a wound low on the back of the head. 0 for 1.

PARKLAND MEMORIAL HOSPITAL

ADMISSION NOTE

J. F. KENNEDY

DATE AND HOUR 22 Nov 1963 DOCTOR: PERRY

Staff Note

At the time of initial examination, the pt. was noted as non-responsive. The eyes were deviated and the pupils were dilated. A considerable quantity of blood was noted on the patient, the carriage and the floor. A small wound was noted in the midline of the neck, in the lower third anteriorly. It was exuding blood slowly. A large wound of the right posterior cranium was noted, exposing severely lacerated brain. Brain tissue was noted in the blood at the head of the carriage.

Pulse or heartbeat were not detectable but slow spasmodic respiration was noted. An endotracheal tube was in place and respiration was being assisted. An intravenous infusion was being placed in the leg.

At this point I noted that respiration was ineffective and while additional venisections were done to administer fluids and blood, a tracheostomy was effected. A right lateral injury to the trachea was noted. The tracheostomy tube was put in place and the cuff inflated and respiration assisted. Closed chest cardiac massage was instituted after placement of sealed drainage chest tubes, but without benefit. Electrocardiographic evaluation revealed that no detectable electrical activity existed in the heart. Resuscitation attempts were abandoned after the team of physicians determined that the patient had expired.

Malcolm O. Perry, M.D.

1630 hr 22 Nov 1963

Right posterior does not equate with gaping wound behind the ear. 0 for 2.

PARKLAND MEMORIAL HOSPITAL

ADMISSION NOTE

DATE AND HOUR NOV 22, 1963 DOCTOR: BAXTER

Note of Attendance to President Kennedy

I was contacted at approx 12:40 that the President was on the way to the emergency room having been shot. On arrival there, I found an endotracheal tube in place with assisted respirations, a left chest tube being inserted and cut downs going in one leg and in the left arm. The President had a wound in the mid-line of the neck. On first observation of the remaining wounds the rt temporal and occipital bones were missing and the brain was lying on the table, with extensive lacerations and contusions. The pupils were fixed and deviated lateral and dilated. No pulse was detectable and respirations were (as noted) being supplied. A tracheotomy was performed by Dr. Perry and I and a chest tube inserted into the right chest (2^nd intercostal space anteriorally). Meanwhile, 2 pts of O neg blood were administered by pump without response. When all of these measures were complete, no heart beat could be detected. Closed chest massage was performed until a cardioscope could be attached which revealed no cardiac activity was obtained. Due to the excessive and irreparable brain damage which was lethal, no further attempt to resuscitate the heart was made.

Charles R. Baxter M.D.

Associate Prof of Surgery

Baxter describes a wound on the side and back of the head. 0 for 3.

Southwestern Medical School

DATE AND HOUR 22 Nov 1963

12:20pm to 13:00 hrs

Called by EOR while standing in (illegible) Laboratory at SWMS. Told that the President had been shot. I arrived at the EOR at 1220 - 1225 and .The President was bleeding profusely from the back of the head. There was a large (3 x 3cm) amount of cerebral tissue present on the cart. There was a smaller amount of cerebellar tissue present also.

A tracheostomy was being performed by Drs. Perry, Baxter and McClelland. Exam of the President showed that an endotracheal tube was in place and respiratory assistance was being given by Dr. Akins and Jenkins. The pupils were dilated, fixed to light and his eyes were deviated outward and the right one downward as as well .

The trach was completed and I adjusted the endotracheal tube a little bit. Blood was present in the oral pharynx. Suction was used to remove this. Levine Catheter was passed into the stomach at this time.

He was (illegible) that I (illegible) no carotid pulse. I immediately began closed chest massage. A pulse was obtained at the carotid and femoral pulse levels.

Dr. Perry then took over the cardiac massage so I could evaluate the head wound.

There was a large wound beginning in the right occiput extending into the parietal region. Much of the skull appeared gone at brief examination. The previously described lacerated brain was present.

By this time an EKG was hooked up. There was no electrical activity of the heart and no respiratory effort - He was pronounced dead at 1300 hrs by me.

W. Kemp Clark

22 Nov 1963 1615 hrs -

Clark's statement suggests a wound on the back of the head. 1 for 4.

PARKLAND MEMORIAL HOSPITAL

ADMISSION NOTE

DATE AND HOUR Nov. 22, 1963 4:45 P.M. DOCTOR: BASHOUR

Statement Regarding Assassination of the President of the U.S.A., President Kennedy At 12:50 PM, we were called from the 1st floor of Parkland Hospital and told that President Kennedy was shot. Dr. D ?? and myself went to the emergency room of Parkland. Upon examination, the President had no pulsation, no heartbeat, no blood pressure. The oscilloscope showed a complete standstill. The president was declared dead at 12:55 P.M.

F. Bashour M.D.

Associate Professor of Cardiology

Southwestern Medical School Dallas, Texas.

Not enough detail. Still 1 for 4.

THE UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS SOUTHWESTERN MEDICAL SCHOOL, DALLAS

November 22, 1963 1630

To: Mr. C. J. Price, Administrator Parkland Memorial Hospital

From: M. T. Jenkins, M.D., Professor and Chairman Department of Anesthesiology

Subject: Statement concerning resuscitative efforts for President John F. Kennedy

Upon receiving a stat alarm that this distinguished patient was being brought to the emergency room at Parkland Memorial Hospital, I dispatched Doctors A. H. Giesecke and Jackie H. Hunt with an anesthesia machine and resuscitative equipment to the major surgical emergency room area, and I ran down the stairs. On my arrival in the emergency operating room at approximately 1230 I found that Doctors Carrico and/or Delaney had begun resuscitative efforts by introducing an orotracheal tube, connecting it for controlled ventilation to a Bennett intermittent positive pressure breathing apparatus. Doctors Charles Baxter, Malcolm Perry, and Robert McClelland arrived at the same time and began a tracheostomy and started the insertion of a right chest tube, since there was also obvious tracheal and chest damage. Doctors Paul Peters and Kemp Clark arrived simultaneously and immediately thereafter assisted respectively with the insertion of the right chest tube and with manual closed chest cardiac compression to assure circulation.

For better control of artificial ventilation, I exchanged the intermittent positive pressure breathing apparatus for an anesthesia machine and continued artificial ventilation. Doctors Gene Akin and A. H. Giesecke assisted with the respiratory problems incident to changing from the orotracheal tube to a tracheostomy tube and Doctors Hunt and Giesecke connected a cardioscope to determine cardiac activity.

During the progress of these activities, the emergency room cart was elevated at the feet in order to provide a Trendelenburg position, a venous cutdown was performed on the right saphenous vein, and additional fluids were begun in a vein in the left forearm while blood was ordered from the blood bank. All of these activities were completed by approximately 1245, at which time external cardiac massage was still being carried out effectively by Doctor Clark as judged by a palpable peripheral pulse. Despite these measures there was no electrocardiographic evidence of cardiac activity.

These described resuscitative activities were indicated as of first importance, and after they were carried out attention was turned to all other evidences of injury. There was a great laceration on the right side of the head (temporal and occipital), causing a great defect in the skull plate so that there was herniation and laceration of great areas of the brain, even to the extent that the cerebellum had protruded from the wound. There were also fragmented sections of brain on the drapes of the emergency room cart . With the institution of adequate cardiac compression, there was a great flow of blood from the cranial cavity, indicating that there was much vascular damage as well as brain tissue damage .

It is my personal feeling that all methods of resuscitation were instituted expeditiously and efficiently. However, this cranial and intracranial damage was of such magnitude as to cause the irreversible damage. President Kennedy was pronounced dead at 1300.

Sincerely, M. T. Jenkins, M.D .

Jenkins, as Baxter, suggests a wound on the side and back of the head. 1 for 5.

PARKLAND MEMORIAL HOSPITAL

ADMISSION NOTE

DATE AND HOUR Nov. 22, 1963 4:45 P.M. DOCTOR: Robert N. McClelland

Statement Regarding Assassination of President Kennedy

At approximately 12:45 PM on the above date I was called from the second floor of Parkland Hospital and went immediately to the Emergency Operating Room. When I arrived President Kennedy was being attended by Drs Malcolm Perry, Charles Baxter, James Carrico, and Ronald Jones. The President was at the time comatose from a massive gunshot wound of the head with a fragment wound of the trachea. An endotracheal tube and assisted respiration was started immediately by Dr. Carrico on Duty in the EOR when the President arrived. Drs. Perry, Baxter, and I then performed a tracheotomy for respiratory distress and tracheal injury and Dr. Jones and Paul Peters inserted bilateral anterior chest tubes for pneumothoracis secondary to the tracheomediastinal injury. Simultaneously Dr. Jones had started 3 cut-downs giving blood and fluids immediately, In spite of this, at 12:55 he was pronounced dead by Dr. Kemp Clark the neurosurgeon and professor of neurosurgery who arrived immediately after I did. The cause of death was due to massive head and brain injury from a gunshot wound of the left temple. He was pronounced dead after external cardiac message failed and ECG activity was gone.

Robert N. McClelland M.D.

Asst. Prof. of Surgery

Southwestern Med.

School of Univ of Tex.

Dallas, Texas

And here's the piece de resistance. IF McClelland REALLY saw a gaping wound on the far back of Kennedy's head, as proposed by so many, what are the odds he'd write a report saying this wound was "of the left temple"? 1 for 6.

So there it is. The earliest, most independent, and presumably most reliable statements from the Parkland witnesses DO NOT suggest there was a gaping wound on the far back of the head. This was something that came about later, after mucho talk and discussion of Clark's public statements.