Was Oswald an Intelligence Agent?

[Jon G. Tidd]

There appear to be several camps here. One camp believes Oswald was an intelligence agent. That he was recruited by an intelligence service to perform a particular mission. Another camp believes Oswald was merely manipulated by an intelligence service. This camp I call the "sheep dipping" camp. A third camp, I, believe Oswald pulled his own strings for his own purposes.

As the sole member of the third camp, I believe Oswald was a flashing beacon to any intelligence service, CIA, FBI, KGB, Mossad, you name it.

It wasn't necessary to dip Oswald into anything. He was an avowed Marxist. He said he wasn't a communist, but he sure got himself portrayed as one. Who cares about such subtle distinctions in 1963?

The key thing if you're an assassination plotter is not to work on manipulating him. He does a fine job all by himself. If you're an assassination plotter who wants to create a diversion, the thing is to implicate Oswald immediately after the assassination.

[Greg Parker]

There appear to be several camps here. One camp believes Oswald was an intelligence agent. That he was recruited by an intelligence service to perform a particular mission. Another camp believes Oswald was merely manipulated by an intelligence service. This camp I call the "sheep dipping" camp. A third camp, I, believe Oswald pulled his own strings for his own purposes.

Four. Courier then asset.

As the sole member of the third camp, I believe Oswald was a flashing beacon to any intelligence service, CIA, FBI, KGB, Mossad, you name it.

It wasn't necessary to dip Oswald into anything. He was an avowed Marxist. He said he wasn't a communist, but he sure got himself portrayed as one. Who cares about such subtle distinctions in 1963?

There is no consensus on the Marxism, though I believe a majority would believe it was not real. Include me in that majority, at least.

The key thing if you're an assassination plotter is not to work on manipulating him. He does a fine job all by himself. If you're an assassination plotter who wants to create a diversion, the thing is to implicate Oswald immediately after the assassination.

He was implicated immediately after - by Roy Truly.

[Jon G. Tidd]

Greg Parker,

Important question: Why, if I understand you, do you not believe Marina's husband maintained he was not a Marxist?

[Cliff Varnell]

Looks to me like the team assigned to sheep-dip and kill Oswald had CIA written all over them, and were perhaps groomed as back-up patsies.

It's been pointed out to me by an astute observer that the sheep-dipping of Oswald and the killing of Oswald may have been separate operations.

Whatever the case may be -- the study of Oswald is not necessarily the same as a study of the JFK assassination.

[Paul Trejo]

It's been pointed out to me by an astute observer that the sheep-dipping of Oswald and the killing of Oswald may have been separate operations.

Whatever the case may be -- the study of Oswald is not necessarily the same as a study of the JFK assassination.

Excellent observation, Cliff.

--Paul Trejo

Edited March 10, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

There appear to be several camps here. One camp believes Oswald was an intelligence agent. That he was recruited by an intelligence service to perform a particular mission. Another camp believes Oswald was merely manipulated by an intelligence service. This camp I call the "sheep dipping" camp. A third camp, I, believe Oswald pulled his own strings for his own purposes.

Four. Courier then asset.

As the sole member of the third camp, I believe Oswald was a flashing beacon to any intelligence service, CIA, FBI, KGB, Mossad, you name it.

It wasn't necessary to dip Oswald into anything. He was an avowed Marxist. He said he wasn't a communist, but he sure got himself portrayed as one. Who cares about such subtle distinctions in 1963?

There is no consensus on the Marxism, though I believe a majority would believe it was not real. Include me in that majority, at least.

The key thing if you're an assassination plotter is not to work on manipulating him. He does a fine job all by himself. If you're an assassination plotter who wants to create a diversion, the thing is to implicate Oswald immediately after the assassination.

He was implicated immediately after - by Roy Truly.

OK, I'll stipulate to these four positions to date:

(1) Oswald was an intelligence agent; recruited by an intelligence service to perform a particular mission.

(2) Oswald was merely manipulated by an intelligence service; the "sheep dipping" camp.

(3) Oswald pulled his own strings for his own purposes (Jon).

(4) Oswald was a courier for an intelligence service, then an asset (Greg).

If #3, as Jon says, then Oswald was self-sheep-dipping, and so probably super-visible to all international intelligence services. That is, an assassination plotter had no need to manipulate Oswald, who was self-framing.

Notice how Jon's reflections here harmonized with Cliff's recent insight -- that a study of OSWALD is not necessarily a study of the JFK murder.

To put it in another way, WALKER's final decision to use OSWALD as the Patsy might have *possibly* been made in the final weeks of the JFK Kill plot -- when OSWALD (the Defector) providentially dropped into the TSBD building on 15 October 1963.

Hearing of this news, Edwin WALKER would probably have called Gerry Patrick HEMMING to obtain detailed information about OSWALD, e.g. whether OSWALD had a rifle, and how he might be persuaded to bring it to the TSBD building on Friday 11/22/1963.

Well about 20 years ago HEMMING told A.J. Weberman that from Florida he called OSWALD on 11/21/1963 and offered him double the market price for his Manlicher-Carcano rifle, if he would bring it to the TSBD building in the morning.

It is not strictly impossible that the Oswald-as-Patsy decision came so late in the JFK Kill plot. It's an interesting new approach.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited March 10, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[David Josephs]

The key thing if you're an assassination plotter is not to work on manipulating him. He does a fine job all by himself. If you're an assassination plotter who wants to create a diversion, the thing is to implicate Oswald immediately after the assassination.

He was implicated immediately after - by Roy Truly.

It actually wasn't unti May 1964 and Sept 1964 that Truly's story finally jives with Baker's March testimony which directly conflicts with his same day affidavit which does not mention a door, a window, a Coke or a lunchroom...

One has to wonder why Truly does not remember the events described on Baker's same-day affidavit... ?? Especially since leaving him on the stairs coming down is much more incriminating in placing Oswald back at the window... if the person they ran into was Oswald... the description doesn't really match, does it?

This is yet another example of the use of uncorroborated and inauthentic evidence used to prove a point. Roy Truly and Marrion Baker lied to the WC during their testimony.

Except a few small hints slip thru:

Mr. BELIN - Did you notice, did he say anything or was there any expression after Mr. Truly said he worked here?

Mr. BAKER - At that time I never did look back toward him. After he says, "Yes, he works here," I turned immediately and run on up, I halfway turned then when I was talking to Mr. Truly.

If Baker is in the lunchroom, as opposed to the stairs like his affidavit says, he cannot "run on up" unless he actually WAS on the stairs and not in the lunchroom at the time... Truly was very aware of what was going on in the TSBD

NOVEMBER 22, 1963

A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

s/ M. L. Baker

MAY 14, 1964

Mr. TRULY. This officer was right behind me and coming up the stairway.

By the time I reached the second floor, the officer was a little further behind me than he was on the first floor, I assume--I know.

Mr. BELIN. Was he a few feet behind you then?

Mr. TRULY. He was a few feet. It is hard for me to tell. I ran right on around to my left, started to continue on up the stairway to the third floor, and on up.

11-22-63: As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me

MAY 14, 1964

Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?

Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed.

Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?

Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him?

Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside he was just inside the lunchroom door

11-22-63: As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me

MARCH 25, 1964

Mr. BAKER - As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there.

11-22-63: As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/html/WH_Vol26_0308b.htm

This affidavit from ROY TRULY is the only thing which matches his testimony and is dated from September 23rd 1964 - only a day or so before the release of the WCR...

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/html/WH_Vol26_0358a.htm

This affidavit from ROY TRULY MARRION BAKER the only thing which matches his testimony and is dated from September 23rd 1964 - only a day or so before the release of the WCR...

(this is the crossed out Coke affidavit) and these two look very similar, even the signatures....

================== parting thought to consider - what is Sawyer doing here?

Within 4 minutes of the shots SAWYER and a couple men also go up into the TSBD - to the 4th floor, are there less than a few minutes to "make sure noboby was hiding"

and then is back down

Mr. SAWYER. We immediately went inside the building. I took--I believe Sgt. Harkness may have gone with me. I am not positive of that.

Mr. BELIN. Was the elevator on the first floor when you got there, or did you have to wait for it to come down?

Mr. SAWYER. Best of my recollection, it was there.

Mr. BELIN. You got to the elevator, went up, looked around back there. How long did you spend up there at the top floor (4th) that the elevator took you to?

Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.

Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?

Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.

Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

[Thomas Graves]

The key thing if you're an assassination plotter is not to work on manipulating him. He does a fine job all by himself. If you're an assassination plotter who wants to create a diversion, the thing is to implicate Oswald immediately after the assassination.

He was implicated immediately after - by Roy Truly.

It actually wasn't unti May 1964 and Sept 1964 that Truly's story finally jives with Baker's March testimony which directly conflicts with his same day affidavit which does not mention a door, a window, a Coke or a lunchroom...

One has to wonder why Truly does not remember the events described on Baker's same-day affidavit... ?? Especially since leaving him on the stairs coming down is much more incriminating in placing Oswald back at the window... if the person they ran into was Oswald... the description doesn't really match, does it?

This is yet another example of the use of uncorroborated and inauthentic evidence used to prove a point. Roy Truly and Marrion Baker lied to the WC during their testimony.

Except a few small hints slip thru:

Mr. BELIN - Did you notice, did he say anything or was there any expression after Mr. Truly said he worked here?

Mr. BAKER - At that time I never did look back toward him. After he says, "Yes, he works here," I turned immediately and run on up, I halfway turned then when I was talking to Mr. Truly.

If Baker is in the lunchroom, as opposed to the stairs like his affidavit says, he cannot "run on up" unless he actually WAS on the stairs and not in the lunchroom at the time... Truly was very aware of what was going on in the TSBD

NOVEMBER 22, 1963

A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

s/ M. L. Baker

MAY 14, 1964

Mr. TRULY. This officer was right behind me and coming up the stairway.

By the time I reached the second floor, the officer was a little further behind me than he was on the first floor, I assume--I know.

Mr. BELIN. Was he a few feet behind you then?

Mr. TRULY. He was a few feet. It is hard for me to tell. I ran right on around to my left, started to continue on up the stairway to the third floor, and on up.

11-22-63: As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me

MAY 14, 1964

Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?

Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed.

Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?

Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him?

Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside he was just inside the lunchroom door

11-22-63: As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me

MARCH 25, 1964

Mr. BAKER - As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there.

11-22-63: As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/html/WH_Vol26_0308b.htm

This affidavit from ROY TRULY is the only thing which matches his testimony and is dated from September 23rd 1964 - only a day or so before the release of the WCR...

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/html/WH_Vol26_0358a.htm

This affidavit from ROY TRULY MARRION BAKER the only thing which matches his testimony and is dated from September 23rd 1964 - only a day or so before the release of the WCR...

(this is the crossed out Coke affidavit) and these two look very similar, even the signatures....

================== parting thought to consider - what is Sawyer doing here?

Within 4 minutes of the shots SAWYER and a couple men also go up into the TSBD - to the 4th floor, are there less than a few minutes to "make sure noboby was hiding"

and then is back down

Mr. SAWYER. We immediately went inside the building. I took--I believe Sgt. Harkness may have gone with me. I am not positive of that.

Mr. BELIN. Was the elevator on the first floor when you got there, or did you have to wait for it to come down?

Mr. SAWYER. Best of my recollection, it was there.

Mr. BELIN. You got to the elevator, went up, looked around back there. How long did you spend up there at the top floor (4th) that the elevator took you to?

Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.

Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?

Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.

Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Jo Jo,

The physical description which you included in your post of the "thirty year old, 5'9", 165 pound" light-brown-jacket-wearing man whom Baker encountered on the stairs fits nicely with the description of the suspected assassin broadcast around 12:45 by Dallas Police Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer-- "About thirty years old, 5'10", 165 pounds." The description I'm referring to was given to Sawyer by a witness who, according to J.Edgar Hoover, told Sawyer he had seen a man running away from the TSBD after the assassination. It's interesting that the physical description given to and broadcast by Sawyer is identical in all details to the one in Baker's affidavit except that Baker's guy is a measly one inch shorter than Sawyer's.

Here's a thread from another forum which mention's Hoover's conclusions regarding Sawyer's witness.

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=1591.20;wap2

All of which leads me to believe that either 1 ) Sawyer's witness and Baker encountered an assassin on the sidewalk and on the stairs, respectively, or 2 ) Baker was spreading the same incorrect "marked card" Robert Webster-like description of Oswald that Sawyer may have been spreading in his 12:45 broadcast.

--Tommy

"Keep on rockin' in the free world..."

Edited March 10, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Jon G. Tidd]

Does anyone here know whether Baker, Sawyer, or Truly appears to have received an unexplained financial benefit in the wake of the assassination?

I can understand DPD cops in 1963 playing team ball, including covering up the true nature of a crime. Baker shows some signs of playing team ball. Sawyer on the other hand was guiding the team before there was any ball to be played.

[David Josephs]

Yup... they weren't killed for not naming the man they ran into coming down the stairs.

They agreed to lie about the encounter and put Oswald further away from the 6th floor window than he could have been if Baker and Truly tell us the man coming down the stairs is Oswald.

What would be more important than adding to the incrimination of Oswald - who could this person have been that he had to be ignored on purpose.

Does this not suggest to you there was no lunchroom and only the affidavit's description of the scene?

Mr. BELIN - How long did you stay in the lunchroom after Truly identified this person as being an employee?
Mr. BAKER - Just momentarily. As he said, "Yes, he works here," I turned and went on up the stairs.

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. There is a door there with a glass, it seemed to me like about a 2 by 2, something like that, and then there is another door which is 6 foot on over there, and there is a hallway over there and a hallway entering into a lunchroom, and when I got to where I could. see him he was walking away from me about 20 feet away from me in the lunchroom.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do?
Mr. BAKER - I hollered at him at that time and said, "Come here." He turned and walked right straight back to me.
Mr. BELIN - Where were you at the time you hollered?
Mr. BAKER - I was standing in the hallway between this door and the second door, right at the edge of the second door.
Mr. BELIN - He walked back toward you then?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 497 which appears to be a diagram of the second floor of the School Book Depository, and you will notice on this diagram there are circles with arrows. I want you to state, if you will, what number or the arrow approximates the point at which you were standing when you told him to "Come here". Is there a number on there at all or not?
Mr. BAKER - This 24 would be the position where I was standing.
Mr. BELIN - The arrow which is represented by No. 24, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - That is correct.
Mr. BELIN - On Exhibit 497. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0119b.htm When you first saw him in which direction was he walking?
Mr. BAKER - He was walking east.
Mr. BELIN - Was--his back was away from you, or not, as you first saw him?
Mr. BAKER - As I first caught that glimpse of him, or as I saw him, really saw him?
Mr. BELIN - As you really saw him.
Mr. BAKER - He was walking away from me with his back toward me.
Mr. DULLES - Can I suggest if you will do this, put on there where the officer was and where Lee Oswald was, or the man who turned out to be Lee Oswald, and which direction he was walking in. I think that is quite important.
Mr. BELIN - Yes, sir. We are going to get to that with one more question, if I can, sir. When you saw him, he then turned around, is that correct, and then walked back toward you?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Was he carrying anything in his hands?
Mr. BAKER - He had nothing at that time.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Were you carrying anything in either of your hands?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. BELIN - What were you carrying?
Mr. BAKER - I had my revolver out.
Mr. BELIN - When did you take your revolver out?
Mr. BAKER - AS I was starting up the stairway.

Again, it sure seems to me that he speaks as if what occurred in his Affidavit was accurate... He is virtually always on or near the stairs yet position #24 is inside the first auto closing door and near the lunchroom entrance... Not exactly by the stairs... yet this is something open to interpretation and not specific evidence - other than it is 4 months later, Oswald is now dead and the lunchroom scene is now famous.

Too bad it contradicts the affidavit and the lawyers for the WC did not ask a single thing about the conflict, even though Baker mentions writing his affidavit at the DPD HQ when Oswald was there.

Edited March 11, 2015 by David Josephs

[Gene Kelly]

Bill Shelley ... part of Oswald's "convoy" (as Garrison called it).

[Thomas Graves]

Bill Shelley ... part of Oswald's "convoy" (as Garrison called it).

Bill Shelley.

What about Bill Shelley?

--Tommy

Edited March 11, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

Does anyone here know whether Baker, Sawyer, or Truly appears to have received an unexplained financial benefit in the wake of the assassination?

I can understand DPD cops in 1963 playing team ball, including covering up the true nature of a crime. Baker shows some signs of playing team ball. Sawyer on the other hand was guiding the team before there was any ball to be played.

IMHO, Jon, select members of the Dallas Police Department were JFK conspirators along with the more radical John Birch Society members in Dallas. These Dallas cops were also members of the regional Minuteman chapter, and perhaps, too, the 'Friends of Walker' recipients of Walker's periodical newsletter. Their rallying cry was -- "JFK is Red."

Still -- all of those who were part of the conspiracy always voiced the same opinion -- that a "Communist" killed JFK. That's how they are to be distinguished from the JFK Cover-up Team, which began around 3pm CST that day, with the winning opinion -- that a "Lone Nut" killed JFK.

This famous episode about Sawyer, Baker and Truly occurs more than two hours earlier -- so it was probably not part of the FBI Cover-up conspiracy in the JFK murder case.

I find little problem with it. OSWALD was not the shooter at JFK -- that should be obvious by now. We are way past the HSCA (1979) now. We know that JFK was "probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy," and the only question that remains is -- who were the accomplices?

The Jack Ruby episode, according to eye-witness reporter Seth Kantor, was also unrelated to the JFK murder. To study Jack Ruby is not necessarily to study the JFK murder -- to paraphrase Cliff. Yet, for Seth Kantor, Dallas cops were also behind Jack Ruby all the way that Sunday.

In this way I count two acts that lead into one -- the murder of JFK and the murder of OSWALD were one and the same plot -- and the DPD sits front and center on both counts. It's almost like a confession. That's my opinion.

Bottom Line -- if Baker-Sawyer-Truly were part of the JFK conspiracy, they would have arrested OSWALD on the spot -- why risk a getaway? Therefore, I accept their chaotic story to represent the real chaos of the post-assassination minutes.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited March 11, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Jon G. Tidd]

Cliff,

I really like your observation that studying Oswald may not be studying the JFK assassination. Your observation runs against the grain of accepted truth, which I like. It demands, or at least calls for, new thinking about the available record. It justifies IMO this entire thread.

I've thought Oswald was a distraction. That he had nothing at all to do with JFK's or J.D. Tippit's murder. That he was what he said he was, a patsy. A low-life, self-avowed Marxist, who eschewed formal education despite having a keen mind, who engaged in self-education. Greg Parker writes that he was a high-level AS person, which I find interesting but without support I recognize clearly in the written record. Maybe Marina's lamentations and Dr. Hartog's observations are support for Greg's claim, I don't know.

If I accept your observation, I'm struck immediately by the fact the DPD zeroed in on him within about 1.25 hours of the assassination for no reason that makes sense. That tells me the plotters had Oswald in focus all along. And also that the plotters had pre-programmed certain members of the DPD and perhaps Roy Truly. There just was no reason that stands up to examination why the police sent a massive force to the Texas Theater.

DPD activity post-assassination and pre-Oswald-arrest is the nucleus of the case against Oswald. And under examination, that activity lacks explanation.

The American people don't know this. Most Americans, I believe, think a guy named Oswald had something to do with JFK's death. That's perfect from the plotter's standpoint.

[Steven Gaal]

Bottom Line -- if Baker-Sawyer-Truly were part of the JFK conspiracy, they would have arrested OSWALD on the spot -- why risk a getaway? Therefore, I accept their chaotic story to represent the real chaos of the post-assassination minutes.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

=============================== or...or....or..... no chaos

• LHO under some type of control in the TSBD. (maybe given phoney/real lookout duty)
• OSWALD "KNOWS" THAT WALKER/JBS people TO BE PATSIES. AS RUBY "KNOWS" ALSO.
• TIME TO LET SHOOTING TEAM TO FLEE
• LHO setup to be framed for TIPPIT murder with one of his numerous wallets found at scene.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Steven Gaal