Is it possible to insert the Carcano 91/38 clip with less than 6 bullets?

[Chris Newton]

Bob,

I've seen this scope enough to know that the rear is on the right in your photo above so assuming the scope needs to be nudged down to correct the elevation problem...

At first glance a shim beneath the rearmost screw connecting the scope mount to the....

wait... this guy is side mounted, so can a shim even correct elevation at all?

unrelated note: Whomever the National Archives employed to take these evidence photos should be canned. Worst evidence photographer ever. What is with that huge title card?

https://www.maryferrell.org/archive/photos/NARA-RIFLES/Photo_naraevid_CE139-4.jpg

[Robert Prudhomme]

Good catch, Chris, as it was, after all, a trick question. I've got to run out and do a few chores but I'll be back in a bit to discuss this further.

[Kenneth Drew]

Bob & Tom,

(you both beat me to it)

We were looking at the image you posted with the clip protruding just yesterday. Since it doesn't normally protrude at all we were very perplexed.

I have looked at many of the rifle photos many times and agree that the rear portion of the sight which I assume may contain the focusing mechanism is wider but it wasn't until I was looking at this photo that I saw what appeared to be an "eye protector".

I think it's a minor article that (if it existed) might be easily lost but my curiosity is that combined with the "protruding clip" we see a different configuration than we did when the weapon was purportedly found.

Here's a blow up of the end of that scope. What does it look like to you?

Kinda makes you wonder how many rifles were in the TSBD that day, and how many of these were never there. Wonder why they don't display the Mauser that was recovered there also?

[Kenneth Drew]

another possible anomaly:

Look at the scope in the Alyea film and then compare it to this:

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/pojfkwhiteslides04053.jpg

I see what appears to be a rubber eye protector on the scope in the image above - I don't see it at all in the Alyea film.

For a quicker comparison, this is a smaller version of the photo posted by Chris:

This is a frame from the Alyea clip also posted by Chris. It is superimposed on top of the above photo for comparison:

Above photo, resized to depict scopes at equal size, with Alyea frame on the right:

To my eye, the scope on the left appears to have the rubber eyepiece (or dust cap?) that Chris mentions. However, the scope on the right, from the Alyea clip appears to be a bright, shiny, knurled cylinder that would be rotated to focus the scope. This portion of the scope is a bright silver throughout the clip with a dark ring at the very end of the scope.

Tom

No, you do not focus a scope by turning the eyepiece, at least not on that toy scope. Sorry to say it but, it is the same eyepiece on both scopes.

If it is the 'same' eyepiece, why is one smooth and one knurled? How does that work?

[Kenneth Drew]

Here's another one for you to ponder.

When the FBI received C2766, they gave it over to their firearms expert, SA Robert A. Frazier who, along with a couple of colleagues, took the rifle to a range and did some shooting tests with it. Some of the results they obtained were quite remarkable. In fact, the word "unbelievable" comes to mind, and I would defy anyone to reproduce the results they obtained. For instance, they found C2766 to be shooting a few inches high at 15 yards, and also a few inches high at 100 yards. Any of you with any firearms experience will know that a rifle shooting a few inches high at 15 yards will be shooting 3-4 feet high at 100 yards. But, they fooled the Warren Commission, and everyone else, it seems. And that's all that really matters, right?

Anyways, the next group to get the rifle was the Army and, according to them, shims had to be added to the scope mount to make the rifle shoot accurately.

Here is a close up photo of the scope and mount on C2766. Take a good look at it, and tell me where you would add shims to correct an elevation problem.

Take a good look at it, and tell me where you would add shims to correct an elevation problem. Probably on the other rifle.

Ok, if I had to 'shim' this, where would I put the shim? see the two bottom screws? I would loosen either one or both of those and put a shim between the scope mount and the 'barrel' and then tighten the screw back down.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Kenneth Drew

[James R Gordon]

Posted for Gary Murr:

These images are from the 4th roll of film William Allen took on November 22nd, exposures number 17 and 18. The clip "theoretically" found in the rifle from the TSBD can plainly be seen projecting from the bottom of the housing. These images are quite rare and probably have not been seen by too many people. If nothing else they definitely confirm the presence of "a" clip in the weapon as Day walked it across the street to the DPD.

Image 1:-

Image 2:-

Image 3:-

[Gary Murr]

Thank you James for posting these images for me. As I indicated, though some members here may be familiar with these Allen photo's there probably are many who have not seen them. They do give the best view of the clip in the rifle as it is being transported from the TSBD by Day. Whether this clip was actually in the rifle as it was first discovered by Day and thereafter handled by Fritz is hard to determine, at least from the Alyea film clips. However, I do not think one can deny there is a clip in the rifle as it is being removed from the building.

FWIW

Gary Murr

[Tom Neal]

As I indicated, though some members here may be familiar with these Allen photo's there probably are many who have not seen them. They do give the best view of the clip in the rifle as it is being transported from the TSBD by Day.

Thanks to James & Gary for posting these definitive photos.

I had seen some of these Allen photos, but not the ones you have posted. There is now no doubt in my mind that the/a partially exposed clip was in the rifle during Carl Day's trip from the TSBD to the DPD.

Whether this clip was actually in the rifle as it was first discovered by Day and thereafter handled by Fritz is hard to determine, at least from the Alyea film clips.

My understanding is that Fritz opened the bolt, and the live round fell out onto the floor. If true, then the live round was already chambered. When the last round in the clip is chambered, the clip should drop out. In the video posted by Chris, sometimes the clip falls out, sometimes it does not. If the clip dropped out when the 'shooter' chambered the final round, it should have been on the floor of the "sniper's nest." If that were true, then someone would have mentioned it.

At no time in the Alyea film do I see any part of the clip extending below the magazine. This indicates that the clip was either inside the rifle and therefore out of sight, or there was no clip in the rifle. If the mechanism functioned as it was designed, the clip should NOT be inside the rifle at this time. But the clip doesn't always eject, so either of this scenarios could be true.

During the handling of the rifle, dusting for prints, Carl Day walking down stairs or riding the elevator, it's possible the clip jarred loose, and partially ejected. After reaching the DPD station, Carl day is shown holding the rifle up for the press to see. Unquestionably, there is no clip visible. He has removed his jacket, and left it somewhere, so some time has elapsed between his arrival and the showing of the rifle. Did he only notice the partially ejected clip after reaching the station? He could have pushed the clip back into the rifle, or removed it at this point for safe-keeping. If so, considering the many questions asked regarding the clip, he certainly would have mentioned that it had been inside the rifle until he removed it at the station. Due to his silence on the matter, it seems unlikely that he removed the clip upon reaching the DPD station.

OTOH, someone could have arrived with a clip, and it was inserted in the rifle for Day to carry in public. If they went to this much trouble to show the clip on the street, you'd think that they would have left it sticking out of the rifle when it was displayed at the police station.

IMHO, BOTH scenarios are difficult to believe...

Tom

[Kenneth Drew]

Posted for Gary Murr:

These images are from the 4th roll of film William Allen took on November 22nd, exposures number 17 and 18. The clip "theoretically" found in the rifle from the TSBD can plainly be seen projecting from the bottom of the housing. These images are quite rare and probably have not been seen by too many people. If nothing else they definitely confirm the presence of "a" clip in the weapon as Day walked it across the street to the DPD.

Image 1:-

Image 2:-

Image 3:-

If I recall correctly, and go back up to the video of them using the clip to hold 6 shots and 4 shots, in either case, when the last cartridge loads into the chamber the clips falls away. It doesn't stay in the rifle hanging out of the bottom. Check and see. Ok, I went back and checked, in the video in #2, the clip did not 'fall out' though he said it was supposed to, he 'pushed' it out. In #26, he did it twice, the first time he 'pulled' it out and then when he fired just 4, when the last one loaded the clip 'fell' out. So I guess that's 'inconclusive'. But I will say that he said it was supposed to 'fall out' so it appears if everything is working correctly that when 'just' walking around with an empty clip hanging out that the law of averages would say it should have fallen free. It seems strange that part of the time it's there and part of the time it isn't.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Kenneth Drew

[Kenneth Drew]

As I indicated, though some members here may be familiar with these Allen photo's there probably are many who have not seen them. They do give the best view of the clip in the rifle as it is being transported from the TSBD by Day.

Thanks to James & Gary for posting these definitive photos.

I had seen some of these Allen photos, but not the ones you have posted. There is now no doubt in my mind that the/a partially exposed clip was in the rifle during Carl Day's trip from the TSBD to the DPD.

Whether this clip was actually in the rifle as it was first discovered by Day and thereafter handled by Fritz is hard to determine, at least from the Alyea film clips.

My understanding is that Fritz opened the bolt, and the live round fell out onto the floor. If true, then the live round was already chambered. When the last round in the clip is chambered, the clip should drop out. In the video posted by Chris, sometimes the clip falls out, sometimes it does not. If the clip dropped out when the 'shooter' chambered the final round, it should have been on the floor of the "sniper's nest." If that were true, then someone would have mentioned it.

At no time in the Alyea film do I see any part of the clip extending below the magazine. This indicates that the clip was either inside the rifle and therefore out of sight, or there was no clip in the rifle. If the mechanism functioned as it was designed, the clip should NOT be inside the rifle at this time. But the clip doesn't always eject, so either of this scenarios could be true.

During the handling of the rifle, dusting for prints, Carl Day walking down stairs or riding the elevator, it's possible the clip jarred loose, and partially ejected. After reaching the DPD station, Carl day is shown holding the rifle up for the press to see. Unquestionably, there is no clip visible. He has removed his jacket, and left it somewhere, so some time has elapsed between his arrival and the showing of the rifle. Did he only notice the partially ejected clip after reaching the station? He could have pushed the clip back into the rifle, or removed it at this point for safe-keeping. If so, considering the many questions asked regarding the clip, he certainly would have mentioned that it had been inside the rifle until he removed it at the station. Due to his silence on the matter, it seems unlikely that he removed the clip upon reaching the DPD station.

OTOH, someone could have arrived with a clip, and it was inserted in the rifle for Day to carry in public. If they went to this much trouble to show the clip on the street, you'd think that they would have left it sticking out of the rifle when it was displayed at the police station.

IMHO, BOTH scenarios are difficult to believe...

Tom

Should have read this comment before I wrote mine just above, but seems as if they both make the same point. However I don't think it's likely that the clip could be shoved back up into the rifle from the bottom. Also as soon as the last round in the clip is chambered, the clip is free to fall out, it doesn't wait for the last round to be ejected. I guess Bob is going to have to tell us if it 'falls' out as it should or if it needs encouragement to 'fall' out.

[Kenneth Drew]

Thanks, Chris!

Your welcome Tom. The video also demonstrates that the clip falls when the last round is chambered.

So, presumably a clip should have been found with the empty shells by the window?

From my files:

Carl Day leaving the TSBD with rifle. I do not have the name of the [news?] photographer.

Signed statement from Carl Day.

CE-575:

Note that it says "Clip for Mannlicher-Carcano." If found inserted in the rifle, shouldn't it state this? From the text, this could be any clip for an MC to show what the clip looks like...

Tom

His note did say clip stamped SMI 952 and that is what is stamped on the clip displayed. Interesting

[Gary Murr]

Kenneth:

You are correct in your observations. The SMI - 952 stands for Societe Metallurgica Italiana [sMI], the manufacturer of the clip while the "952" component is part of the dating structures used, in this instance indication that this clip was manufactured in 1952. I have handled this clip at NARA and can attest to its slightly bent shape. Though the Day "note" is interesting my only trepidation with it is that the body of the document is typed, yet the date of "11-22-63" and Day's notes concerning the date and place of manufacture of the weapon are handwritten. You will also note that there are not stenographic notations on this document anywhere to indicate who or whom associated with the DPD actually constructed the note. I can also further indicate that I have rough notes constructed by a member of the FBI lab in which it is indicated that at some point in time, presumably while in the possession of the FBI Lab, this same clip went "missing." And while I am strictly going from memory, because I am currently no where near my research materials, I do not believe Robert Frazier during his testimony session regarding this specific weapon made any mention of this specific clip being with the rifle at the VFW Building during the Frazier testimony session.

Gary

[Chris Newton]

Quote

These images are from the 4th roll of film William Allen took on November 22nd, exposures number 17 and 18. The clip "theoretically" found in the rifle from the TSBD can plainly be seen projecting from the bottom of the housing. These images are quite rare and probably have not been seen by too many people. If nothing else they definitely confirm the presence of "a" clip in the weapon as Day walked it across the street to the DPD

.

James those are fantastic! Thank you.

From image #3 I captured this enlargement which shows what appears to be the correct clip shoved into the hole which it is designed to fall out of. Why do I think it was "shoved" in there? Because it's designed to fall out of that same whole and Day doesn't seem to be to worried about it going anywhere.

edited to remove statement it's "upside down" hard to tell.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Chris Newton

[Tom Neal]

Though the Day "note" is interesting my only trepidation with it is that the body of the document is typed, yet the date of "11-22-63" and Day's notes concerning the date and place of manufacture of the weapon are handwritten. You will also note that there are not stenographic notations on this document anywhere to indicate who or whom associated with the DPD actually constructed the note. I can also further indicate that I have rough notes constructed by a member of the FBI lab in which it is indicated that at some point in time, presumably while in the possession of the FBI Lab, this same clip went "missing." And while I am strictly going from memory, because I am currently no where near my research materials, I do not believe Robert Frazier during his testimony session regarding this specific weapon made any mention of this specific clip being with the rifle at the VFW Building during the Frazier testimony session.

Hello Gary,

I posted the statement with Carl Day's signature on it because I have the same doubts you stated above.

Below is a snip from this note. Hand-written above the last line is a word that is essentially illegible. Apparently, Day is providing the name of an additional witness to the picking up of the bullets by "Det. Sims."

Possibly, it says (Det. Robert Lee) "Studebaker". Per the snip below, he was called to the TSBD along with Lt. Day.

I can also further indicate that I have rough notes constructed by a member of the FBI lab in which it is indicated that at some point in time, presumably while in the possession of the FBI Lab, this same clip went "missing."

If you are able to post these notes, I would VERY much like to see them. TIA!

And while I am strictly going from memory, because I am currently no where near my research materials, I do not believe Robert Frazier during his testimony session regarding this specific weapon made any mention of this specific clip being with the rifle at the VFW Building during the Frazier testimony session.

I agree, but I'll have to look that up to be certain.

Gary,

In the same post (#40) as the note/statement signed by Day, I posted a jpg of CE-575. Note that it says "Clip for Mannlicher-Carcano."

In your experience with Commission Documents, would you agree that from the wording of this text, this could be ANY clip for an MC to show what the clip looks like, rather than indicating that this is THE Clip from the alleged assassination rifle?

Thanks for any thoughts,

Tom

Edited September 19, 2015 by Tom Neal

[Chris Newton]

After much thought about the location of the clip when the rifle was found there is an alternative explanation that we might consider.

We've presumed one of these scenarios:

1. The clip got stuck inside the rifle when the last round was chambered instead of falling out.

2. The clip fell out when the last round was chambered. It was found but not documented and re-inserted in the weapon.

3. There was no clip.

or

4. There were two live rounds in the rifle and therefore the clip was functioning as it should and was still inside the rifle. When both rounds were removed the clip was then re-inserted to keep it together with the rifle on it's trip to DPD.