Is it possible to insert the Carcano 91/38 clip with less than 6 bullets?

[Chris Newton]

It's a clip and may be edited. The whole thing might have been a re-enactment but it happened before that gun was seen on the sidewalk.

The still you posted was from press video taken inside the DPD.

[Tom Neal]

The still you posted was from press video taken inside the DPD.

Chris,

Agreed.

So, the clip was not protruding while inside the TSBD, but was protruding when Day exited the building, and arriving at DPD, the clip was once again missing. I presume that Day showed off the rifle as soon as he arrived at the DPD?

Tom

[Chris Newton]

"Something" seems to protrude while Day is outside the TSBD in several pictures. I don't know if we can say it's the clip. It could be something shoved in to keep it sealed. It wasn't inventoried, (to my knowledge), by Day. I think that all this has been debated for years.

[Kenneth Drew]

The photo in your post with the BIG Red Arrow "Clip" - I'm not certain at all that's a clip. If it were it would have to be sticking way out of the bottom and we don't see anything like that in the Ayea Film. My understanding is they get stuck inside and are therefore not visible or they eject.

Hi Chris,

I agree with you 100% regarding the clip. That photo is from my files and had the arrow on it when I found it. If I had added the arrow myself, I would have added a question mark after the word "clip." When the clip is inserted it doesn't project below the rifle. I don't know if the clip could partially eject and get hung up, or not.

More importantly, to my eye anyway, I don't believe that projection should be in such deep shadow. To me it appears that the rectangular projection is actually part of the street/sidewalk shadow that appears prominently in this photo. I'd like to see a video or additional photos before or after this was taken. It also appears to me that this "clip" is not at the proper location on the rifle to actually BE a partially ejected clip.

From the film you uploaded, you can see where the clip is ejected relative to the bolt and the trigger. Unfortunately, in the photo of Day carrying the rifle, the shoulder strap completely blocks the view of this area.

Tom

Why, why, why. are we talking about this. No one fired a shot from the sixth floor window that day. there was no Man licher Carcano rifle until later, there was a Mauser. There were no shots fired from the 6th floor window. Why are we talking about this? NO ONE FIRED A SHOT FROM THE SNIPER'S NEST. why are we talking about this?

[Chris Newton]

Why, why, why. are we talking about this.

Because there was a weapon found in the TSBD.

If in fact it is a Carcano then it requires a clip to fire.

If the weapon and clip were functioning %100 correctly, as would seem to be required to pull this scenario off

...then a clip should have fallen out in the snipers nest when the last round was chambered.

There is a clip in the National Archives. What's it's source? We don't know for sure.

If it could be proven that there was no clip in the TSBD that would mean "game over" for the LN crowd.

All the photographic evidence we have points to a Carcano not a Mauser. That doesn't mean there aren't a host of serious problems with that weapon (and ammo) as pointed out by Messrs. Prudhomme and Murr.

edit - grammar

Edited September 18, 2015 by Chris Newton

[Ian Lloyd]

Chris,

If in fact it is a Carcano then it requires a clip to fire.

Is this absolutely correct? Can't it be manually loaded one bullet at a time? Admittedly, this would still preclude 3 shots within 5-6 seconds, but just for the sake of accuracy? I'm sure I've read this somewhere, I may be wrong though...

[Chris Newton]

Is this absolutely correct? Can't it be manually loaded one bullet at a time? Admittedly, this would still preclude 3 shots within 5-6 seconds, but just for the sake of accuracy? I'm sure I've read this somewhere, I may be wrong though...

As far as I know, in 1963, the only rifles that required a clip were the Carcano and the Garrand.

I believe I'm correct and that it can be verified by many independent sources.

example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcano Check the last item in the specs: "Feed System"

or as quite humorously stated here "If you must load single rounds, the best way is to take the bolt out..."

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?6297-Loading-and-unloading-the-Carcano

edit- added additional link

Edited September 18, 2015 by Chris Newton

[Chris Newton]

As I had pointed out before, the bolt, as observed in the Alyea clip posted earlier, seems to be pulled to the rear about an inch. This is indicated by the distance from the back of the bolt to the rear of the scope above it and by the bolt handle which is resting a little to the rear of the stock cutout that would allow it to lie flat. In the video the bolt handle protrudes outward. One inch to the rear it cannot lie flat against the stock therefore the bolt is neither fully closed nor secure.

Maybe someone tried to load a "single round" without a clip and it jammed it just like experienced Carcano experts suggest it should?

[Thomas Graves]

As I had pointed out before, the bolt, as observed in the Alyea clip posted earlier, seems to be pulled to the rear about an inch. This is indicated by the distance from the back of the bolt to the rear of the scope above it and by the bolt handle which is resting a little to the rear of the stock cutout that would allow it to lie flat. In the video the bolt handle protrudes outward. One inch to the rear it cannot lie flat against the stock therefore the bolt is neither fully closed nor secure.

Maybe someone tried to load a "single round" without a clip and it jammed it just like experienced Carcano experts suggest it should?

Fascinating idea, Chris.

Good observations and explanations.

--Tommy

[Ian Lloyd]

Great animation of the internal workings of the M-C here (not really to do with the question of hand loading a single bullet, I just thought it was interesting)....

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/05/28/reconsidering-carcano/

[Ian Lloyd]

I thought I'd read it somewhere - from the HSCA firearms panel, testimony of Lutz (emphasis mine):

Mr. LUTZ. This rifle can be loaded in two ways. If an individual wanted to insert a single cartridge, a separate clip would not be required. The bolt would be opened. Normally the rifle would be pointed down or in some way so that the cartridge could be fed in by hand into the chamber area of the rifle. Then the bolt would be closed on that cartridge and you would be able to fire the rifle with a single round.
The normal procedure to load the rifle with more than one round would be to insert a number of cartridges, one through six, in the clip, in this case a brass clip. They are inserted into this and it acts as a retainer or a holder for the cartridges. They are then inserted into the open area by pushing it down. The bottom of the bottom cartridge is forcing the follower all the way to the bottom. It pushes it down and is forced to the extreme bottom and goes into a locked position allowing you then to push the bolt handle forward stripping the first cartridge from the top of the clip and inserting it into the chamber area of the rifle.

[Robert Prudhomme]

I thought I'd read it somewhere - from the HSCA firearms panel, testimony of Lutz (emphasis mine):

Mr. LUTZ. This rifle can be loaded in two ways. If an individual wanted to insert a single cartridge, a separate clip would not be required. The bolt would be opened. Normally the rifle would be pointed down or in some way so that the cartridge could be fed in by hand into the chamber area of the rifle. Then the bolt would be closed on that cartridge and you would be able to fire the rifle with a single round.

The normal procedure to load the rifle with more than one round would be to insert a number of cartridges, one through six, in the clip, in this case a brass clip. They are inserted into this and it acts as a retainer or a holder for the cartridges. They are then inserted into the open area by pushing it down. The bottom of the bottom cartridge is forcing the follower all the way to the bottom. It pushes it down and is forced to the extreme bottom and goes into a locked position allowing you then to push the bolt handle forward stripping the first cartridge from the top of the clip and inserting it into the chamber area of the rifle.

Lutz is full of crap. While there are some rifles that it is possible to push a cartridge into the chamber and close the bolt behind it, the Carcano is not one of them.

Shown below is the face of a Carcano bolt:

On the bottom of the bolt face can be seen something called an "extractor claw", whose sole purpose is to remove the empty cartridge from the chamber after firing. As the bolt moves forward to pick up a cartridge from the magazine, the cartridge gets bumped up out of the magazine and the spring loaded "elevator bar" pushes the base of the cartridge up into the bolt face. If everything goes correctly, the cartridge base is tucked neatly into the bolt face, with the extractor claw seated into the groove at the base of the cartridge, and the cartridge is loaded into the chamber by what the Mauser people referred to as "controlled feed".

I could not find a good photo of a Carcano with a cartridge in the bolt face but I found a photo of a German Mauser K98 which possesses virtually the same style of action.

Unknown make of rifle with Mauser action. See how the groove at the base of the cartridge is seated onto the extractor claw.

IF you attempted to load a cartridge into the chamber by hand, you will find, with the cartridge base ahead of the extractor claw, it will be impossible to even close the bolt, as the placing of the cartridge ahead of the bolt face adds to the total length of cartridge and bolt. And, if you try to force it, you will have another problem; that being trying to remove the cartridge from the chamber.

Years ago, I owned a bolt action rifle made by the Midland Gun Co. of Birmingham, England. It was chambered for .308 cartridges and equipped with a Mauser action. As the .308 cartridge is somewhat shorter than other military cartridges, I came to learn that it did not function all that well in the Mauser action. What would happen is that, as the bolt was pushing the cartridge forward out of the magazine, instead of coming upwards smoothly as the nose of the cartridge rode up on the ramp, it would bump too abruptly; causing the cartridge base to miss the extractor claw. As this left the cartridge AHEAD of the extractor claw, without me knowing it, I would try to close the bolt and, of course, it would not close. In fact, the cartridge would jam in the chamber, and I used to have to keep a cleaning rod with me so I could push the cartridge back out from the muzzle of the barrel.

This is the reason more modern rifle bolts, such as those made by Remington, while keeping the Mauser forward locking lugs, changed from controlled feed to a spring loaded extractor claw. This type of action allows you to hand load a cartridge into the chamber and close the bolt behind it, as the spring loaded extractor claw will snap over the cartridge base as it moves forward.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Robert Prudhomme]

I thought I'd read it somewhere - from the HSCA firearms panel, testimony of Lutz (emphasis mine):

Mr. LUTZ. This rifle can be loaded in two ways. If an individual wanted to insert a single cartridge, a separate clip would not be required. The bolt would be opened. Normally the rifle would be pointed down or in some way so that the cartridge could be fed in by hand into the chamber area of the rifle. Then the bolt would be closed on that cartridge and you would be able to fire the rifle with a single round.

The normal procedure to load the rifle with more than one round would be to insert a number of cartridges, one through six, in the clip, in this case a brass clip. They are inserted into this and it acts as a retainer or a holder for the cartridges. They are then inserted into the open area by pushing it down. The bottom of the bottom cartridge is forcing the follower all the way to the bottom. It pushes it down and is forced to the extreme bottom and goes into a locked position allowing you then to push the bolt handle forward stripping the first cartridge from the top of the clip and inserting it into the chamber area of the rifle.

I hate to be critical but, this is a perfect example of how "educated" city folk can be so easily taken in by a so-called "expert". Another example of an "expert" who was full of crap right up to the eyeballs was the so-called FBI firearms "expert" SA Robert A. Frazier.

[Chris Newton]

Hey Bob,

Thanks for clarifying. I wonder if Lutz was actually "under oath" or if it was a "statement" so he could blatantly lie without repercussion.

Either way might this:

IF you attempted to load a cartridge into the chamber by hand, you will find, with the cartridge base ahead of the extractor claw, it will be impossible to even close the bolt, as the placing of the cartridge ahead of the bolt face adds to the total length of cartridge and bolt. And, if you try to force it, you will have another problem; that being trying to remove the cartridge from the chamber.

Explain my observation:

As I had pointed out before, the bolt, as observed in the Alyea clip posted earlier, seems to be pulled to the rear about an inch. This is indicated by the distance from the back of the bolt to the rear of the scope above it and by the bolt handle which is resting a little to the rear of the stock cutout that would allow it to lie flat. In the video the bolt handle protrudes outward. One inch to the rear it cannot lie flat against the stock therefore the bolt is neither fully closed nor secure.

again the Alyea edited clip:

Edited September 18, 2015 by Chris Newton

[Tom Neal]

As I had pointed out before, the bolt, as observed in the Alyea clip posted earlier, seems to be pulled to the rear about an inch. This is indicated by the distance from the back of the bolt to the rear of the scope above it and by the bolt handle which is resting a little to the rear of the stock cutout that would allow it to lie flat. In the video the bolt handle protrudes outward. One inch to the rear it cannot lie flat against the stock therefore the bolt is neither fully closed nor secure.

Maybe someone tried to load a "single round" without a clip and it jammed it just like experienced Carcano experts suggest it should?

Chris,

Excellent observation, and analysis!

Fritz examined the hulls from the floor, and then to recreate the original scene, he tossed them back onto the floor, presumably in the same general location. After opening the bolt and the live round falling out, I have to wonder if Fritz tried to do the same thing with the live round. In an attempt to put things back the way they were before his meddling, he re-inserted the bullet into the rifle, and as expected, the bolt wouldn't completely close.

Tom

Edited September 18, 2015 by Tom Neal