Is it possible to insert the Carcano 91/38 clip with less than 6 bullets?

[Kenneth Drew]

After much thought about the location of the clip when the rifle was found there is an alternative explanation that we might consider.

We've presumed one of these scenarios:

1. The clip got stuck inside the rifle when the last round was chambered instead of falling out.

2. The clip fell out when the last round was chambered. It was found but not documented and re-inserted in the weapon.

3. There was no clip.

or

4. There were two live rounds in the rifle and therefore the clip was functioning as it should and was still inside the rifle. When both rounds were removed the clip was then re-inserted to keep it together with the rifle on it's trip to DPD.

All good enough theories, however I've never heard that there were 2 live rounds at the scene. It's unfortunate that better documentation was not done so that we wouldn't have to guess and speculate so much on 'what might have been true'.

[Glenn Nall]

Posted for Gary Murr:

These images are from the 4th roll of film William Allen took on November 22nd, exposures number 17 and 18. The clip "theoretically" found in the rifle from the TSBD can plainly be seen projecting from the bottom of the housing. These images are quite rare and probably have not been seen by too many people. If nothing else they definitely confirm the presence of "a" clip in the weapon as Day walked it across the street to the DPD.

Image 1:-

Image 2:-

Image 3:-

What I'm wondering is how the f* photos like these are so overlooked for 50 years?

[Chris Newton]

What I'm wondering is how the f* photos like these are so overlooked for 50 years?

I don't think they've been necessarily "overlooked". The clip controversy has been going on for a long time. Maybe it's a refresh/re-look - which is always a good thing. I know I've seen the photos before but I hadn't really taken an interest in what was really going on with that clip until recently.

[Chris Newton]

It's unfortunate that better documentation was not done so that we wouldn't have to guess and speculate so much on 'what might have been true'.

By "better documentation", I assume you mean just more documentation or better quality documentation? Or are you willing to concede that some documentation is manipulated, contrived, falsified or destroyed?

We don't have any photographic or video record of the live round being removed from the weapon on the sixth floor of the TSBD. We only have testimony and documentation. Some of that documentation is already controversial as far as the number of spent rounds recovered.

To suggest that there are other possibilities for the what we see in the Alyea film vs. the weapon that was presented on the sidewalk outside but we won't discuss those because they present a different paradigm, is a little dishonest, no?

[Glenn Nall]

right - that's kinda what i'm getting at - this is a long-running controversy, and as much as i've read about it and everyone's inability to decide whether there was a clip in the rifle when it was toted outside, one would think that these pics would have surfaced and been made prominent in this little debate a long time ago.

i'm not disputing them at all. just kind of observing the VERY odd dynamics of the whole thing.

[Tom Neal]

or

4. There were two live rounds in the rifle and therefore the clip was functioning as it should and was still inside the rifle. When both rounds were removed the clip was then re-inserted to keep it together with the rifle on it's trip to DPD.

Chris,

Would there have been any reason to keep a 2nd live round a secret?

Tom

[Kenneth Drew]

Posted for Gary Murr:

These images are from the 4th roll of film William Allen took on November 22nd, exposures number 17 and 18. The clip "theoretically" found in the rifle from the TSBD can plainly be seen projecting from the bottom of the housing. These images are quite rare and probably have not been seen by too many people. If nothing else they definitely confirm the presence of "a" clip in the weapon as Day walked it across the street to the DPD.

Image 1:-

Image 2:-

Image 3:-

What I'm wondering is how the f* photos like these are so overlooked for 50 years?

Maybe it's because it's not really evidence in the assassination. Only in the diversion.

[Kenneth Drew]

It's unfortunate that better documentation was not done so that we wouldn't have to guess and speculate so much on 'what might have been true'.

By "better documentation", I assume you mean just more documentation or better quality documentation? Or are you willing to concede that some documentation is manipulated, contrived, falsified or destroyed?

We don't have any photographic or video record of the live round being removed from the weapon on the sixth floor of the TSBD. We only have testimony and documentation. Some of that documentation is already controversial as far as the number of spent rounds recovered.

To suggest that there are other possibilities for the what we see in the Alyea film vs. the weapon that was presented on the sidewalk outside but we won't discuss those because they present a different paradigm, is a little dishonest, no?

By "better documentation", I assume you mean just more documentation or better quality documentation? Or are you willing to concede that some documentation is manipulated, contrived, falsified or destroyed? All the above. The president of the USA was assassinated. you would think they would immediately put someone in charge to make sure no detail got overlooked. Well, they did put someone in charge but it was for the opposite reason. To insure that nothing was detailed enough to even allow it to be used as evidence. The rifle from the TSBD was/is not evidence. It had nothing to do with the assassination. It was just a diversion, no shots were fired from there. There were at least two rifles removed from the floor, one or more of those disappeared. There was no clip, there was a clip. Why don't we know the answer to that? No one has ever proved that a Manlicher Carcano rifle was associated with the assassination other than as plants. No bullet that was fired from a MC on 11/22 has ever been recovered. LHO never owned a MC rifle. Until some one proves he did, then he didn't.

[Chris Newton]

Would there have been any reason to keep a 2nd live round a secret?

Tom,

I don't know, maybe. There was one researcher who did a very good, very detailed report on the chain of custody of all the ammo (and the fragments) and if my memory serves me correctly, claimed that one unspent Carcano round found it's way to Capt. Fritz's desk drawer and lived there for an extended period of time. I'll have to dig to find it and I'll link it here if I do.

Maybe unrelated but in a broader sense maybe not:

edit - added clip

Edited September 20, 2015 by Chris Newton

[Tom Neal]

There was one researcher who did a very good, very detailed report on the chain of custody of all the ammo (and the fragments) and if my memory serves me correctly, claimed that one unspent Carcano round found it's way to Capt. Fritz's desk drawer and lived there for an extended period of time. I'll have to dig to find it and I'll link it here if I do.

Thanks, Chris. I'm looking forward to seeing what you have. IIRC, it is alleged that Fritz kept one of the hulls found in the "sniper's nest" in his desk drawer. I've never found much of a trail for the live round.

Maybe unrelated but in a broader sense maybe not:

I've seen this clip before. My reaction in watching it is the same now as it was the first time I watched it. At least two of the hulls at NARA are NOT the ones allegedly found on the 6th floor. With this photographic evidence obtained by Barry Krusch, how can this fact be refuted by anyone?

Tom

[Chris Newton]

IIRC, it is alleged that Fritz kept one of the hulls found in the "sniper's nest" in his desk drawer.

Tom, I'm probably mistaken about the live round and the "extra" hull account is what I should have referred to. Thanks.

I was struck by how similar CE 575 (the clip) is to those hulls above. I don't see any markings on CE 575 either.

[Kenneth Drew]

There was one researcher who did a very good, very detailed report on the chain of custody of all the ammo (and the fragments) and if my memory serves me correctly, claimed that one unspent Carcano round found it's way to Capt. Fritz's desk drawer and lived there for an extended period of time. I'll have to dig to find it and I'll link it here if I do.

Thanks, Chris. I'm looking forward to seeing what you have. IIRC, it is alleged that Fritz kept one of the hulls found in the "sniper's nest" in his desk drawer. I've never found much of a trail for the live round.

Maybe unrelated but in a broader sense maybe not:

I've seen this clip before. My reaction in watching it is the same now as it was the first time I watched it. At least two of the hulls at NARA are NOT the ones allegedly found on the 6th floor. With this photographic evidence obtained by Barry Krusch, how can this fact be refuted by anyone?

Tom

I certainly want to acknowledge that Barry Krusch did an excellent job on proving that there was no case against LHO. His tracking of the shells from the TSBD was excellent.

[Chris Newton]

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11941&search=carcano#relPageId=30&tab=page

Lt. Day says he initialed the clip. Where are his initials located on the clip in the archives?

P.S. I assume his initials could be any combination of "J.C.D."

[Tom Neal]

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11941&search=carcano#relPageId=30&tab=page

Lt. Day says he initialed the clip. Where are his initials located on the clip in the archives?

Great find, Chris!

Here's a Hi-Res of one side of the clip depicted in CE-575:

Inside the blue rectangle, on the RH side, do I see an upper case letter "J"? On the left there is a straight vertical line as well as some other lines...

In Barry Krusch's video, on one of the hulls are the letters "DA" followed by an angled line that IMHO is a "Y". If true, and JC Day is consistent in how he initials evidence, he has scratched "DAY" in upper case letters.

Tom

[Kenneth Drew]

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11941&search=carcano#relPageId=30&tab=page

Lt. Day says he initialed the clip. Where are his initials located on the clip in the archives?

Great find, Chris!

Here's a Hi-Res of one side of the clip depicted in CE-575:

Inside the blue rectangle, on the RH side, do I see an upper case letter "J"? On the left there is a straight vertical line as well as some other lines...

In Barry Krusch's video, on one of the hulls are the letters "DA" followed by an angled line that IMHO is a "Y". If true, and JC Day is consistent in how he initials evidence, he has scratched "DAY" in upper case letters.

Tom

while it appears there might be something scratched on it, it's not clear who's mark it might be. a J is not consistent with DAY.