Is it possible to insert the Carcano 91/38 clip with less than 6 bullets?

[Chris Newton]

To compare to the Alyea film clip I posted here's the extant weapon now in the archives.

Note where the end of the bolt is in relation to the scope above it.

https://www.maryferrell.org/archive/photos/NARA-RIFLES/Photo_naraevid_CE139-1.jpg

[Robert Prudhomme]

Hey Bob,

Thanks for clarifying. I wonder if Lutz was actually "under oath" or if it was a "statement" so he could blatantly lie without repercussion.

Either way might this:

IF you attempted to load a cartridge into the chamber by hand, you will find, with the cartridge base ahead of the extractor claw, it will be impossible to even close the bolt, as the placing of the cartridge ahead of the bolt face adds to the total length of cartridge and bolt. And, if you try to force it, you will have another problem; that being trying to remove the cartridge from the chamber.

Explain my observation:

As I had pointed out before, the bolt, as observed in the Alyea clip posted earlier, seems to be pulled to the rear about an inch. This is indicated by the distance from the back of the bolt to the rear of the scope above it and by the bolt handle which is resting a little to the rear of the stock cutout that would allow it to lie flat. In the video the bolt handle protrudes outward. One inch to the rear it cannot lie flat against the stock therefore the bolt is neither fully closed nor secure.

again the Alyea edited clip:

That would make sense. The en bloc clip could still be in the magazine while this was going on, too, and have fallen out later on (or been removed).

If this is what Fritz did, he stood a very good chance of snapping the tip of the extractor claw off. This is a common occurrence with Mauser actions and ham-fisted inexperienced shooters trying to load single cartridges.

[Chris Newton]

Fritz examined the hulls from the floor, and then to recreate the original scene, he tossed them back onto the floor, presumably in the same general location. After opening the bolt and the live round falling out, I have to wonder if Fritz tried to do the same thing with the live round. In an attempt to put things back the way they were before his meddling, he re-inserted the bullet into the rifle, and as expected, the bolt wouldn't completely close.

Thanks Tom, I was thinking the same. I also thought- though it would be highly unpopular - it would explain why Ozzy said "I didn't shoot anyone" -'cuz the damn thing was jammed.

[Robert Prudhomme]

"I wonder if Lutz was actually "under oath" or if it was a "statement" so he could blatantly lie without repercussion."

Lying or just the likely fact he never shot a Mauser or Carcano before?

[Chris Newton]

another possible anomaly:

Look at the scope in the Alyea film and then compare it to this:

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/pojfkwhiteslides04053.jpg

I see what appears to be a rubber eye protector on the scope in the image above - I don't see it at all in the Alyea film.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Here is another less known photo of the rifle being brought to DPD, without the strap in the way of the magazine.

Another view of the scope. I believe what looks like a rubber eye piece is merely the back end of the scope.

[Robert Prudhomme]

If you guys really want something to think about, look at this photo:

This is a Carcano rifle (likely an M91/38 judging by the rear sight) with a scope mounted in the identical fashion as C2766.

A little known fact about C2766 is the necessary modification in its scope mounting to allow a clip of bullets to be loaded into the magazine. There are two adjustment knobs on the 4x18 Ordnance Optics scope; one for adjusting windage (side to side) and one for adjusting elevation (up and down). As the diagram below shows, scopes normally have the windage adjustment knob on the right side of the rifle (bolt handle side) and the elevation adjustment knob on the top of the scope.

If the scope had been mounted on C2766 with the windage knob protruding from the right side, the shooter could not have loaded the en bloc clip into the magazine. So, what happened was, the person mounting the scope turned the scope 90° to the left, placing the elevation knob on the left side and the windage knob on the top. Can you imagine how puzzling this would be to someone trying to sight this rifle in? Did Klein's include a note with their mail order Carcanos, explaining the configuration of the scope?

Edited September 18, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Robert Prudhomme]

Hey Bob,

Thanks for clarifying. I wonder if Lutz was actually "under oath" or if it was a "statement" so he could blatantly lie without repercussion.

Either way might this:

IF you attempted to load a cartridge into the chamber by hand, you will find, with the cartridge base ahead of the extractor claw, it will be impossible to even close the bolt, as the placing of the cartridge ahead of the bolt face adds to the total length of cartridge and bolt. And, if you try to force it, you will have another problem; that being trying to remove the cartridge from the chamber.

Explain my observation:

As I had pointed out before, the bolt, as observed in the Alyea clip posted earlier, seems to be pulled to the rear about an inch. This is indicated by the distance from the back of the bolt to the rear of the scope above it and by the bolt handle which is resting a little to the rear of the stock cutout that would allow it to lie flat. In the video the bolt handle protrudes outward. One inch to the rear it cannot lie flat against the stock therefore the bolt is neither fully closed nor secure.

again the Alyea edited clip:

That would make sense. The en bloc clip could still be in the magazine while this was going on, too, and have fallen out later on (or been removed).

If this is what Fritz did, he stood a very good chance of snapping the tip of the extractor claw off. This is a common occurrence with Mauser actions and ham-fisted inexperienced shooters trying to load single cartridges.

Something else to remember about Carcanos. As the trigger cocks when the bolt is opened, it takes more force to open the bolt than on a rifle such as a .303 Lee Enfield. If the bolt and receiver on C2766 were not cleaned and lubricated regularly, this would add to the problem, and it is very likely the bolt could come to rest in a partially open position, without sliding open or closed by itself.

[Tom Neal]

another possible anomaly:

Look at the scope in the Alyea film and then compare it to this:

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/pojfkwhiteslides04053.jpg

I see what appears to be a rubber eye protector on the scope in the image above - I don't see it at all in the Alyea film.

For a quicker comparison, this is a smaller version of the photo posted by Chris:

This is a frame from the Alyea clip also posted by Chris. It is superimposed on top of the above photo for comparison:

Above photo, resized to depict scopes at equal size, with Alyea frame on the right:

Due to the color difference (gray, not black), the scope on the left appears to have the rubber eyepiece (or dust cap?) that Chris mentions. However, the scope on the right, from the Alyea clip appears to be a bright, shiny, (knurled?) cylinder that would be rotated to focus the scope, IF it has that feature. This portion of the scope is a bright silver throughout the Alyea clip with a dark ring at the very end of the scope.

Tom

Edited September 18, 2015 by Tom Neal

[Chris Newton]

Bob & Tom,

(you both beat me to it)

We were looking at the image you posted with the clip protruding just yesterday. Since it doesn't normally protrude at all we were very perplexed.

I have looked at many of the rifle photos many times and agree that the rear portion of the sight which I assume may contain the focusing mechanism is wider but it wasn't until I was looking at this photo that I saw what appeared to be an "eye protector".

I think it's a minor article that (if it existed) might be easily lost but my curiosity is that combined with the "protruding clip" we see a different configuration than we did when the weapon was purportedly found.

Here's a blow up of the end of that scope. What does it look like to you?

Edited May 6, 2017 by Chris Newton
space

[Robert Prudhomme]

another possible anomaly:

Look at the scope in the Alyea film and then compare it to this:

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/pojfkwhiteslides04053.jpg

I see what appears to be a rubber eye protector on the scope in the image above - I don't see it at all in the Alyea film.

For a quicker comparison, this is a smaller version of the photo posted by Chris:

This is a frame from the Alyea clip also posted by Chris. It is superimposed on top of the above photo for comparison:

Above photo, resized to depict scopes at equal size, with Alyea frame on the right:

To my eye, the scope on the left appears to have the rubber eyepiece (or dust cap?) that Chris mentions. However, the scope on the right, from the Alyea clip appears to be a bright, shiny, knurled cylinder that would be rotated to focus the scope. This portion of the scope is a bright silver throughout the clip with a dark ring at the very end of the scope.

Tom

No, you do not focus a scope by turning the eyepiece, at least not on that toy scope. Sorry to say it but, it is the same eyepiece on both scopes.

[Tom Neal]

Here's a blow up of the end of that scope. What does it look like to you?

Chris,

I see a pronounced difference in color between the barrel of the scope and the eyepiece in your photo.

Below is the Carl Day scope photo on the left, and the CE scope photo on the right:

The size of the two eyepieces are a perfect match.

No matter how much I brighten or darken the CE scope with Photoshop, the shade of gray of the barrel and that of the eyepiece are identical. However, the identical process with the Carl Day scope on the left produces gray levels that are far apart. Also, the highlights on the Carl Day scope's eyepiece do not appear on the barrel to the same degree. Could they be composed of different materials?

Tom

[Robert Prudhomme]

Here's another one for you to ponder.

When the FBI received C2766, they gave it over to their firearms expert, SA Robert A. Frazier who, along with a couple of colleagues, took the rifle to a range and did some shooting tests with it. Some of the results they obtained were quite remarkable. In fact, the word "unbelievable" comes to mind, and I would defy anyone to reproduce the results they obtained. For instance, they found C2766 to be shooting a few inches high at 15 yards, and also a few inches high at 100 yards. Any of you with any firearms experience will know that a rifle shooting a few inches high at 15 yards will be shooting 3-4 feet high at 100 yards. But, they fooled the Warren Commission, and everyone else, it seems. And that's all that really matters, right?

Anyways, the next group to get the rifle was the Army and, according to them, shims had to be added to the scope mount to make the rifle shoot accurately.

Here is a close up photo of the scope and mount on C2766. Take a good look at it, and tell me where you would add shims to correct an elevation problem.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Glenn Nall]

Here is another less known photo of the rifle being brought to DPD, without the strap in the way of the magazine.

Another view of the scope. I believe what looks like a rubber eye piece is merely the back end of the scope.

one of the photos to which i was referring earlier.

[Glenn Nall]

Here's another one for you to ponder.

When the FBI received C2766, they gave it over to their firearms expert, SA Robert A. Frazier who, along with a couple of colleagues, took the rifle to a range and did some shooting tests with it. Some of the results they obtained were quite remarkable. In fact, the word "unbelievable" comes to mind, and I would defy anyone to reproduce the results they obtained. For instance, they found C2766 to be shooting a few inches high at 15 yards, and also a few inches high at 100 yards. Any of you with any firearms experience will know that a rifle shooting a few inches high at 15 yards will be shooting 3-4 feet high at 100 yards. But, they fooled the Warren Commission, and everyone else, it seems. And that's all that really matters, right?

Anyways, the next group to get the rifle was the Army and, according to them, shims had to be added to the scope mount to make the rifle shoot accurately.

Here is a close up photo of the scope and mount on C2766. Take a good look at it, and tell me where you would add shims to correct an elevation problem.

"In fact, the word "unbelievable" comes to mind"

RP, you speak the truth.