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The Real Ruth and Michael Paine


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Regardless, there might be other possible "innocent" explanations if it wasn't the Russian language that "brought them together."

It was Rousell who nominated the language as the reason for the date. If you want to believe she flew across the country for a blind date with a younger Marine whom everyone allegedly thought was an oddball, and had no particular reason for doing so, that's up to you. I'm sure there were plenty of Russian speaker's in New York she could have dated though...

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That is interesting Greg.

About both Donovan and Quinn. It does resemble some kind of set up to see if Oswald is ready to go to Russia.

Hmm, wonder why Caufiield missed that. And said the opposite.

BTW, you know how bad Caufield is? He needs JFK to be in the CFR because his nutty theory is that 700 people at a rightwing conference are going to kill off the entire CFR. (Don't laugh) So he says Kennedy was a member.

Little problem Jeff. You're factually challenged again. You know, as in "Oswald didn't speak Russian".

Kennedy never joined the CFR.

And anyone who knows anything about that body, or who has read Imperial Brain Trust, the best book on it, would know that. (see p. 247)

Um, I think you're misrepresenting Jeff Caufield, mister DiEugenio. I don't find anywhere in his new book, General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy: The Extensive New Evidence of a Radical Right Conspiracy (2015) that claims that LHO never spoke Russian.

Could it be you're grasping at straws?

Your choir-boy LHO isn't really holding up, is he?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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Walker had JFK killed.

Walker controlled the autopsy.

Walker controlled the telephone interruption in Washington, D.C.

Walker controlled any pre-autopsy body alteration.

Walker got Marina's husband to do his bidding.

Walker controlled the members and the staff attorneys of the Warren Commission.

Maybe you're correct, Paul. Maybe General Walker was the spider in the center of the web.

I believe you don't understand why JFK was killed.

JFK was killed because he didn't play ball.

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Let me try and clear this up about Oswald's ability with Russian.

What Dr. Caulfield said was that

  • There is no evidence that the Marines taught Oswald to speak Russian (true)
  • That he scored "poorly" in a Russian proficiency test (subjective - from memory, he passed, though only barely - and possibly deliberately so)
  • That his co-workers in Minsk laughed at his poor Russian-speaking ability (can't comment as I'm unaware of the evidence here - however, when in hospital in Moscow, the doctor noted that he appeared not to be able to speak the language at all. This has always sounded to me like the old trick. Pretend you can't speak the local lingo so those around you speak openly in the belief you can't understand. In that way, you can pick up all sorts of information you may not get otherwise)
  • That Marina initially thought he was from Estonia whose language is derived from a different base (what Marina said in testimony was "He spoke with accent so I assumed he was maybe from another state, which is customary in Russia. People from other states do speak with accents because they do not speak Russian. They speak different languages." When asked if she meant another Russian state, she replied "Yes, like Estonia, Lithuania, something like that." The next question she got was the key question: did she suspect he was an American, to which she replied "No, not at all." All of this information indicates that Oswald was selective while in the Soviet Union as to whom he showed his true language ability with. It also indicates he was learned the language from listening to someone from one of the Baltic satellites, rather than the mother country. On the subject of where Estonian language came from - it is part of Uralic language family - or languages from the Urals. Specifically, it belongs to the Finnish branch - but where it differs is that does have Russian language influences. So does it have a different base? Yes. But that stated without noting the Russian influence could be unintentionally misleading. The main point coming from Marina's testimony however is, that he spoke the language so well, she could not detect he was a Westerner)

All-in-all, I don't find any real errors of fact in what is presented in the book. The only problem I see is that it only gives some of the facts.

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Walker had JFK killed.

Walker controlled the autopsy.

Walker controlled the telephone interruption in Washington, D.C.

Walker controlled any pre-autopsy body alteration.

Walker got Marina's husband to do his bidding.

Walker controlled the members and the staff attorneys of the Warren Commission.

Maybe you're correct, Paul. Maybe General Walker was the spider in the center of the web.

I believe you don't understand why JFK was killed.

JFK was killed because he didn't play ball.

First of all, Jon, if you're going to criticize my position, you must first ensure that you understand it correctly.

You completely misunderstand my position, though I've repeated it consistently for five years here.

It is ABSURD to imagine that General Walker had anything to do with the secrecy surrounding the Bethesda Hospital autopsy.

First of all, the evidence suggests that the Bethesda secrecy surrounding the ballistics, the wounds, the X-rays, the photographs and the missing brain itself -- can be summarized succinctly under one umbrella, namely, that a Single Shooter becomes impossible with the Real Facts -- and therefore, since the FBI under Director Hoover insisted on a Single Shooter theory, the Bethesda autopsy Real Facts had to be hidden from the American Public.

General Walker didn't insist on a Single Shooter theory. A multiple shooter theory was perfectly fine with General Walker. All General Walker wanted to confirm was that the Shooters were Communists.

J. Edgar Hoover fought General Walker tooth and nail on that point. "Lee Harvey Oswald had no accomplices who are still at large." That was FBI Director Hoover's strident insistence throughout the rest of his life. He got LBJ, Allen Dulles and Earl Warren to back him up on this by using the argument that National Security depended on it -- otherwise the USA would have demanded some warlike reaction or other during the Cold War.

So, Hoover falsified the Bethesda autopsy, not General Walker. I've been repeating this for five years, Jon. Please repeat my points correctly if you're going to try to quote me.

Based on that -- all the rest of your points about Washington DC fall by the same logic.

Please try to get it right next time.

Remember -- the General Walker issue matters for a FRESH approach to the study of Michael and Ruth Paine, because they, like George DeMohrenschildt and Volkmar Schmidt, sharply opposed the politics of General Walker, and to some degree, IMHO, influenced LHO in his own attitudes of that particular topic.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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Let me try and clear this up about Oswald's ability with Russian.

What Dr. Caulfield said was that

  • There is no evidence that the Marines taught Oswald to speak Russian (true)
  • That he scored "poorly" in a Russian proficiency test (subjective - from memory, he passed, though only barely - and possibly deliberately so)
  • That his co-workers in Minsk laughed at his poor Russian-speaking ability (can't comment as I'm unaware of the evidence here - however, when in hospital in Moscow, the doctor noted that he appeared not to be able to speak the language at all. This has always sounded to me like the old trick. Pretend you can't speak the local lingo so those around you speak openly in the belief you can't understand. In that way, you can pick up all sorts of information you may not get otherwise)
  • That Marina initially thought he was from Estonia whose language is derived from a different base (what Marina said in testimony was "He spoke with accent so I assumed he was maybe from another state, which is customary in Russia. People from other states do speak with accents because they do not speak Russian. They speak different languages." When asked if she meant another Russian state, she replied "Yes, like Estonia, Lithuania, something like that." The next question she got was the key question: did she suspect he was an American, to which she replied "No, not at all." All of this information indicates that Oswald was selective while in the Soviet Union as to whom he showed his true language ability with. It also indicates he was learned the language from listening to someone from one of the Baltic satellites, rather than the mother country. On the subject of where Estonian language came from - it is part of Uralic language family - or languages from the Urals. Specifically, it belongs to the Finnish branch - but where it differs is that does have Russian language influences. So does it have a different base? Yes. But that stated without noting the Russian influence could be unintentionally misleading. The main point coming from Marina's testimony however is, that he spoke the language so well, she could not detect he was a Westerner)

All-in-all, I don't find any real errors of fact in what is presented in the book. The only problem I see is that it only gives some of the facts.

Greg, I appreciate your objective reading of Jeffrey Caufield's position on LHO's ability to speak Russian.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

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The impression he leaves is this: Oswald taught himself Russian. Which is the WC view. Which is simply not possible as Melanson proved back in 1989.

And he leaves out the Monterey School report that the WC had.

He even uses the old chestnut that he did not do well on his first test.

We all know what Garrison did with that in his book: that is sort of like me saying my dog is bad at chess since I beat him two of three times.

And he leaves out the Quinn episode which is after the exam.

The whole point of his presentation is see through: Oswald was not recruited into the false defector program. Which is why he deals with Oswald in Russia in two sentences.

That is a misrepresentation, a deliberate foreshortening of the adduced record.

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The impression he leaves is this: Oswald taught himself Russian. Which is the WC view. Which is simply not possible as Melanson proved back in 1989.

And he leaves out the Monterey School report that the WC had.

He even uses the old chestnut that he did not do well on his first test.

We all know what Garrison did with that in his book: that is sort of like me saying my dog is bad at chess since I beat him two of three times.

And he leaves out the Quinn episode which is after the exam.

The whole point of his presentation is see through: Oswald was not recruited into the false defector program. Which is why he deals with Oswald in Russia in two sentences.

That is a misrepresentation, a deliberate foreshortening of the adduced record.

No James, but you're clearly going for a fast termination to the new, refreshing proposals by Dr. Caufield.

LHO's USSR experience is still best explained by Victor Marchetti, and the USA Intelligence strategy of sending young FAKE defectors to the USSR. It makes sense that LHO was part of that group -- as young as he was.

It also makes sense, however, that LHO dropped out of that program, to the chagrin of the US Intelligence community and the Marines (who downgraded his discharge). LHO didn't have the income that Howard Hunt or David Morales enjoyed -- because he didn't get the job.

Yet it seems that LHO always tried to get that job back again -- but being less than sophisticated politically he chose instead to work with Guy Banister, Clay Shaw, David Ferrie, Ed Butler, Carlos Bringuier, Jack S. Martin, Fred Crisman, Tom Beckham, Gerry Patrick Hemming, Loran Hall, Larry Howard and all these Cuban Exiles -- as if this was somehow going to get him back into the good graces of US Intelligence.

As Tommy Graves rightly said -- no bona fide Intelligence Agent would ever have become a Patsy in an assassination.

It was precisely because LHO was a wanna-be that he was in a position to become the Patsy of those people he thought were his FRIENDS.

As Dr. Jeff Caufield said, I think rightly, insofar as LHO had anything to do with the JFK Killers, he had already lost his virtue. Yet LHO just handed them his rifle.

That's a nuance your hasty treatment of Caufield doesn't address, James.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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The impression he leaves is this: Oswald taught himself Russian. Which is the WC view. Which is simply not possible as Melanson proved back in 1989.

And he leaves out the Monterey School report that the WC had.

He even uses the old chestnut that he did not do well on his first test.

We all know what Garrison did with that in his book: that is sort of like me saying my dog is bad at chess since I beat him two of three times.

And he leaves out the Quinn episode which is after the exam.

The whole point of his presentation is see through: Oswald was not recruited into the false defector program. Which is why he deals with Oswald in Russia in two sentences.

That is a misrepresentation, a deliberate foreshortening of the adduced record.

Jim,

1. I disagree it was impossible to teach himself Russian. This discounts the possibility that he had Aspergers. Many people with Aspergers acquire languages by seeming osmosis. However, if Marina is to be believed and he spoke with a Baltic accent, he either partially learned by listening to recordings of someone with that accent, or by live lessons with someone having that accent. People with Aspergers are also noted for acquiring accents and sounding "native".

2. The oft-cited executive session memo about the Monterrey school is actually and very specifically about his ability with Spanish, not Russian. Having re-read that memo, this is where Dr. Caulfield is referring to work colleagues in Minsk making fun of his ability with the language. Except it was not his Russian they were poking fun at (as suggested by the author) - it was his Spanish. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1328&relPageId=68&search=monterey_and%20spanish

3. I agree his test results are played down by a lot of people. The results were not that bad.

4. At the risk of upsetting Tommy, the Quinn episode is a red flag that should have been explored to the nth degree by someone way before now. I am absolutely satisfied it had to do with coming missions for one or both behind the Iron Curtain.

5. Obviously I agree. He was recruited by Ferrie into what most definitely could be described as a false defector program. I believe he also performed at least one other task there (most likely more than one). That will be in the next book and it is an entirely new twist on things. I promise it will be supported by evidence from an impeccable source.

Edited by Greg Parker
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The impression he leaves is this: Oswald taught himself Russian. Which is the WC view. Which is simply not possible as Melanson proved back in 1989.

And he leaves out the Monterey School report that the WC had.

He even uses the old chestnut that he did not do well on his first test.

We all know what Garrison did with that in his book: that is sort of like me saying my dog is bad at chess since I beat him two of three times.

And he leaves out the Quinn episode which is after the exam.

The whole point of his presentation is see through: Oswald was not recruited into the false defector program. Which is why he deals with Oswald in Russia in two sentences.

That is a misrepresentation, a deliberate foreshortening of the adduced record.

No James, but you're clearly going for a fast termination to the new, refreshing proposals by Dr. Caufield.

LHO's USSR experience is still best explained by Victor Marchetti, and the USA Intelligence strategy of sending young FAKE defectors to the USSR. It makes sense that LHO was part of that group -- as young as he was.

It also makes sense, however, that LHO dropped out of that program, to the chagrin of the US Intelligence community and the Marines (who downgraded his discharge). LHO didn't have the income that Howard Hunt or David Morales enjoyed -- because he didn't get the job.

Oswald was no more than a witting or unwitting asset. He wasn't applying for a job.

Yet it seems that LHO always tried to get that job back again

What job would that be?

-- but being less than sophisticated politically he imagined that working with Guy Banister, Clay Shaw, David Ferrie, Ed Butler, Carlos Bringuier, Jack S. Martin, Fred Crisman, Tom Beckham, Gerry Patrick Hemming, Loran Hall, Larry Howard and all these Cuban Exiles -- was somehow going to get him back into the good graces of US Intelligence.

Ruth Paine tell you that? That "he imagined"?

As Tommy Graves rightly said -- no bona fide Intelligence Agent would ever have become a Patsy in an assassination.

He wasn't an agent - but that statement is still crap.

It was precisely because LHO was a wanna-be that he was in a position to become the Patsy of those people he thought were his FRIENDS.

No wannabe's. He was by then an FBI informant. But you're right about his friends helping to set him up... especially those in Irving...

As Dr. Jeff Caufield said, I think rightly, insofar as LHO had anything to do with the JFK Killers, he had already lost his virtue. Yet LHO just handed them his rifle.

The book is a great resource on the Right.

That's a nuance your hasty treatment of Caufield doesn't address, James.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

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...It was precisely because LHO was a wanna-be that he was in a position to become the Patsy of those people he thought were his FRIENDS.

No wannabe's. He was by then an FBI informant. But you're right about his friends helping to set him up... especially those in Irving...

As Dr. Jeff Caufield said, I think rightly, insofar as LHO had anything to do with the JFK Killers, he had already lost his virtue. Yet LHO just handed them his rifle.

The book is a great resource on the Right.

At least we agree on something, Greg. It was clearly the Friends of LHO who set him up. I'm counting the Extreme Right in this regard, including all the people named by Joan Mellen as well as all those named by Jeff Caufield.

Yet the Paines play a different role in the life of LHO. They don't belong to the Extreme Right. They were yuppies. They hated General Walker -- and if anything, MIchael Paine may have *encouraged* LHO to hate and despise General Walker.

The Walker episode is where we still disagree, evidently. I'm still unsold on Caufield's "shoot-and-miss" scenario. I think he's trying to explain something complicated in a very hasty manner.

It's because the General Walker theory was so neglected for 50 years that Caufield's book is so large -- and he had to cut it short -- especially at this point, the motives for LHO's participation with the "Friends" who made him their patsy.

It still seems to me that LHO could have been working with George DeMohrenschildt, Volkmar Schmidt and Michael Paine in a plot against General Walker -- which LHO took to a new level, as a man of action rather than words. He one-upped and startled his yuppie-liberal Dallas associates. This theory still has energy, IMHO.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

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Re: Victor Marchetti

I wouldn't know Marchetti if I tripped over him. I do know I could write this, however:

In Vietnam 1971-72, American intelligence units captured, interrogated, and tortured hundreds if not thousands of North Vietnamese Army captives. Based on the information gathered, American intelligence units thwarted numerous attempts to move U.S. MIA north along the Ho Chi Minh Trail and also thwarted numerous attempts of drug runners to bring heroin into South Viet Nam. Most importantly, U.S. intelligence units conducted numerous Phoenix Operation drops into Vietnamese villages and captured many enemy operatives that way.

Yes, I could write that. Based on personal knowledge. Every bit of it is false.

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Re: Victor Marchetti

I wouldn't know Marchetti if I tripped over him. I do know I could write this, however:

In Vietnam 1971-72, American intelligence units captured, interrogated, and tortured hundreds if not thousands of North Vietnamese Army captives. Based on the information gathered, American intelligence units thwarted numerous attempts to move U.S. MIA north along the Ho Chi Minh Trail and also thwarted numerous attempts of drug runners to bring heroin into South Viet Nam. Most importantly, U.S. intelligence units conducted numerous Phoenix Operation drops into Vietnamese villages and captured many enemy operatives that way.

Yes, I could write that. Based on personal knowledge. Every bit of it is false.

c'mon seriously everyone knows it was the cia running heroin. wink wink

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...I believe you don't understand why JFK was killed.

JFK was killed because he didn't play ball.

Actually, Jon, I believe I do understand why JFK was killed -- it was because of his Civil Rights speech on 11 June 1963. That very same evening, Medgar Evers, the NAACP activist who supported James Meredith to become the first Black American student at Ole Miss -- despite the racial riot of General Walker on campus there -- was assassinated in his driveway, shot in the back, by the KKK, just after midnight.

After the assassination of Medgar Evers, the White House received further threats from Extreme Right groups, to the effect that, "this was just the beginning."

JFK was indeed killed because he didn't play ball -- with the Extreme Right Wing.

In my theory of the JFK murder, the Paines, who were rich liberals, had nothing to do with the JFK murder, but perhaps something to do with LHO driving General Walker even more insane than he already was.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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Walker had JFK killed.

Walker controlled the autopsy.

Walker controlled the telephone interruption in Washington, D.C.

Walker controlled any pre-autopsy body alteration.

Walker got Marina's husband to do his bidding.

Walker controlled the members and the staff attorneys of the Warren Commission.

Maybe you're correct, Paul. Maybe General Walker was the spider in the center of the web.

I believe you don't understand why JFK was killed.

JFK was killed because he didn't play ball.

maybe general walker was an intelligence agent only posing as general walker

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