The Real Ruth and Michael Paine

[Greg Parker]

Ruth was being questioned left and right by news media during that weekend, so she thought she had better write that down in her notebook/calendar. After she wrote it, she thought (as she testified) that somebody is going to ask her about that, so she wrote down the day's date next to it. However, the days were so chaotic that weekend, that she wrote down October 23, 1963, instead of November 23, 1963.

What an absolute crock.

She heard through the media that LHO had bought the rifle on March 20 so she needed to write that down... in case the very same media asked what date he purchased it?

Like I said, you will say anything - any drivel whatsoever if you think you can get away with it.

Greg, your insulting manner doesn't really strengthen your case -- but weakens it.

It isn't my argument, anyway, it's Ruth Paine's own WC testimony. Deal with it.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Insults are separate to the arguments and logically do not and cannot strengthen or weaken them. They are thrown in at no extra charge.

My response is the same whether it originates from you or your heroine. It makes no sense. Full stop. End of story.

[Paul Trejo]

For me, the big question is what the heck were the Oswalds doing moving stuff with a stroller.

The only thing I can think of is that they moved their stuff temporarily to the Neely apartment. They were instructed to do so by Lee's handler. The purpose being to establish their residence at that address.

The problem with this scenario is the Grays/Brays might have seen them and they might have asked questions or later understood that the Oswalds actually were not the ones living above them.

On the other hand, that could explain one more reason why the FBI had little desire (actually no desire) to find and question the Grays/Brays.

But if that were the case, what would the FBI had done if the Brays/Grays had not moved out? Just ignore them?

I think we covered the stroller issue -- the Ellsbeth St. address is just a block from the Neely St. address, and the Oswalds had almost no personal property -- no furniture of their own. A few trips by hand and stroller were all that was needed.

The only visible "handler" of LHO at this period is the CIA-connected George DeMohrenschildt. He admitted that he was baby-sitting LHO for the CIA, i.e. to ensure that LHO wasn't a USSR-influenced pawn.

George DeMohrenschildt was certainly qualified to make this assessment -- but George was overqualified in many ways, too. George expanded his mission by interfering in LHO's personal life.

LHO was evidently a malcontent -- he wasn't satisfied with any job he got, or with any community he was with, or with any house, or anything.

LHO liked George DeMohrenschildt, though, and liked where George lived. LHO could get used to that. But George wasn't that kind of "handler."

George, Volkmar Schmidt and various Dallas engineer yuppies -- boasting their liberal credentials -- tried to convince LHO that General Walker was really as bad as Adolf Hitler. George used to call General Walker, "General Fokker" to LHO, to make him laugh.

Boy, was George surprised when LHO proved that he was a man of action and not mere words, on Wednesday 10 April 1963.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 25, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Greg, Jim, and Paul:

Let's imagine a forum in which Ruth Paine can be examined (by her representative, Paul Trejo) and cross-examined (by Greg and Jim).

Paul, what would you want to elicit from Ruth?

Greg and Jim, what would be your questions on cross?

These are serious questions. You guys are the experts.

Please let onlookers like I know how to focus our thinking about Ruth Paine.

I believe she's a lying sack of ****. But I'm willing to put that belief aside in considering the examination and cross-examination I propose.

Nice invitation, Jon.

I'm up for it. Let's examine and cross-examine Ruth Paine on this thread. It's not hard to do, since she was already asked more than 5,000 questions by the Warren Commission, and several hundred more by Jim Garrison in 1968, and has cooperated with every request for an interview with every journalist in the past 50 years who wasn't foaming at the mouth, screaming that she murdered JFK.

So, we have a tremendous amount of material to go on. Hundreds of pages of material. No problem on my side. You ask me, Jon, what I would elicit from Ruth Paine?

Well, that depends. What would I ask in light of the majority on this thread who reveal much ignorance about the hundreds of pages of material that already exist on Ruth Paine? Or what would I ask in light of my thorough familiarity of her case?

I think that I would have to choose #1, since the ignorance about Ruth Paine here is astounding. People accuse Ruth Paine of being a CIA agent on the basis that Ruth Paine's mother-in-law's childhood friend was a lover of Allen Dulles. That sounds stupid to normal people, but to many on this thread, it's good logic.

But really, Jon, I'd begin with you. You say that you believe Ruth Paine is "a lying sack of ****." Normally, though, you show good sense, so I ask you yet again, what exactly makes you say such a thing?

Have you read all of Ruth Paine's WC testimony? There's more than 5,000 questions to consider there.

What is it -- EXACTLY -- that YOU think she's lying about, Jon?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 25, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Jon, while you're reviewing your opinion of Ruth Paine, I'd like to get your opinion on her letter to Jim Garrison in 1968. Here's the full text:

-------------------- BEGIN LETTER OF RUTH PAINE TO JIM GARRISON ---------------------------

April 10, 1968

Mr. Jim Garrison
District Attorney of Orleans Parish
Criminal Courts Building
2700 Tulane Avenue
New Orleans, Louisiana

Dear Jim Garrison:

I was much moved by the two days just spent in New Orleans. I had had no personal knowledge of you and only the most fragmentary and inaccurate information on the nature of your investigation of conspiracy.

I was glad to discover that there are some fundamental ways in which I agree with the importance of your pursuit of information regarding a possible conspiracy.

Most basic is the conviction that if our form of society is to survive we must create checks and balances on the burgeoning clandestine wing of our government called the CIA. (Or close it down.)

Your charges are so sweeping and major that it would be national folly not to pursue the issue to see where truth lies. There can be no harm in such pursuit, it seems to me, unless innocent people suffer markedly as a result of it. The harm in our not pursuing truth regarding the questions you raise could be great indeed.

I was impressed, as many must be, by the sheer force of your personality. It would seem in the nature of things that people who agree with you would gather to you, and those who disagree would simply turn away.

It has occurred to me that if I can be helpful to your search it is as a person who might raise doubts about your conclusions and data from a position basically sympathetic to your objectives

You don't have many "middle-ground" people around you and are not likely to have. It is possible that this sort of "check and balance" on the probe itself would not be of interest to you, but my guess is that it would be.

If there are ways I can help I shall be glad.

I was struck by your passionate concern for Man, and by the intense grief you feel over the loss of President Kennedy.

I, too, feel that loss acutely. He was a most remarkable person, and extremely valuable to our country.

Besides his charm and brilliance as a man he also was a president inoculated by the experience of the Bay of Pigs.

He had taken the measure of the "expert advice" of generals (and the CIA) and had found it wanting.

He was a man prepared to do his own thinking in a framework of the highest regard for man, for life and for civilization. For myself, I have given up wondering when the sharp sting of my grief over his loss will wane.

I have concluded it never shall, and in that I found you kindred.

With highest regards,
--Ruth
Mrs. Michael Paine

-------------------- END LETTER OF RUTH PAINE TO JIM GARRISON ---------------------------

So, Jon, what do you think of this letter by Ruth Paine?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 25, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Greg Parker]

Where's the barf bag?

[Sandy Larsen]

For me, the big question is what the heck were the Oswalds doing moving stuff with a stroller.

The only thing I can think of is that they moved their stuff temporarily to the Neely apartment. They were instructed to do so by Lee's handler. The purpose being to establish their residence at that address.

The problem with this scenario is the Grays/Brays might have seen them and they might have asked questions or later understood that the Oswalds actually were not the ones living above them.

On the other hand, that could explain one more reason why the FBI had little desire (actually no desire) to find and question the Grays/Brays.

But if that were the case, what would the FBI had done if the Brays/Grays had not moved out? Just ignore them?

I think we covered the stroller issue -- the Ellsbeth St. address is just a block from the Neely St. address, and the Oswalds had almost no personal property -- no furniture of their own. A few trips by hand and stroller were all that was needed.

I'm afraid I didn't word that sentence well, Paul. What I meant was, why were they using a stroller to move if they weren't moving to the Neely apartment, which was only 1 1/2 blocks away. That was the theory I was working under, that the Oswalds never lived at Neely.

[Paul Trejo]

I'm afraid I didn't word that sentence well, Paul. What I meant was, why were they using a stroller to move if they weren't moving to the Neely apartment, which was only 1 1/2 blocks away. That was the theory I was working under, that the Oswalds never lived at Neely.

OK, Sandy. Here's what Ruth Paine herself said:

(1) She met Marina Oswald for the first time in her life at a party at Everett Glover's apartment on 22 February 1963. Everett had a roommate named Volkmar Schmidt. Everett had known Michael Paine through the Unitarian Church in Dallas. As engineers they had a lot in common, and also friends in common.

(2) Ruth and Michael had separated back in September 1962. They had been married for years and had two children. Everett hoped they would get back together. He invited them both to this party. Michael had a cold and couldn't go. Ruth heard that some Russian speaking people would be there, and she wanted to meet them.

(3) There were perhaps a dozen or more people at the party, mostly young Dallas engineers -- mostly in the oil business. But they were young liberals, and they were interested in politics. They had read about LHO in the newspapers, and Everett had him as a special guest. LHO had lived in the USSR and came back to the USA on his own free will. LHO would be the center of attention.

(4) The Oswalds were driven to this party by George and Jeanne DeMohrenschildt -- friends of both Everett Glover and Volkmar Schmidt, since George was himself an oil exploration specialist.

(5) At the party, LHO became the center of attention, as expected, as English was the preferred language, and everybody wanted to hear about the USSR. Marina had only the DeMohrenschildt's to speak Russian with her, but worse, baby June was cranky, and Marina had to try to get her to sleep. So George DeMohrenschildt asked Everett if Marina could take baby June to Everett's bedroom. Everett said OK.

(6) Ruth Paine didn't really want to hear about the USSR, she wanted to practice her Russian conversational skills, and besides, that, she was also a young mother, and was fond of babies. So Ruth Paine joined Jeane and Marina and June in the bedroom, and Ruth introduced herself.

(7) Marina was friendly and patient with Ruth's stumbling Russian words. Instead of sneering, or making fun of Ruth for making grammar mistakes, Marina would kindly correct Ruth's grammar, and explain the rules of Russian grammar. Ruth really appreciated that.

(8) Marina was a young mother, an educated pharmacologist, a native Russian speaker, and was a patient conversationalist. Ruth Paine was thrilled to meet somebody like Marina. So, Ruth gave Marina her address and phone number, and asked Marina for her address and phone number.

(9) Marina Oswald apologized that she had no phone number, but she said she enjoyed letter-writing, and she gave Ruth Paine her address on Ellsbeth Street.

(10) The next day Ruth Paine sent Marina Oswald a letter explaining how much she enjoyed meeting Marina, and that she would like to get together for lunch or dinner sometime. Knowing that Marina had no automobile, and that Dallas and Irving were 22 miles apart, Ruth offered to drive over with her own children to Ellsbeth Street.

(11) Ruth waited two days, five days, seven days, and more, but eventually she got her first letter from Marina Oswald. The return address on the envelope, however, was not Ellsbeth Street, but Neely Street.

(12) In her letter, Marina Oswald apologized for taking so long to return Ruth's letter, but she and LHO had been moving apartments. She now lived at 214 Neely Street.

And that's how that all went down, IIRC, according to both Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald. I see no convincing reason whatsoever to doubt their testimony.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Greg Parker]

OK, Sandy. Here's what Ruth Paine herself said:

Michael had a cold and couldn't go. Direct quote requested

they were young liberals, and they were interested in politics. Direct quote requested

They had read about LHO in the newspapers Direct quote please

[Paul Trejo]

OK, Sandy. Here's what Ruth Paine herself said:

Michael had a cold and couldn't go. Direct quote requested

they were young liberals, and they were interested in politics. Direct quote requested

They had read about LHO in the newspapers Direct quote please

Greg, here's the direct quote on the cold:

--------- BEGIN EXTRACT OF RUTH PAINE'S TESTIMONY Wed 18 Mar 1964 -- WC vol. II p. 430 ----------

Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell us who Mr. Everett Glover was and how you became acquainted with him. What was the milieu?

Mrs. PAINE. I met Mr. Glover at a group gathered to sing madrigals together. These are old English songs where each part has a melody and it was for the enjoyment of reading the music and in harmony, and we often had coffee afterward and would talk.

Mr. JENNER. This included your husband, however, did it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes indeed.

Mr. JENNER. You had a common interest in...Madrigal singing?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And went together.

Mr. JENNER. Proceed.

Mrs. PAINE. And then Everett knew that I was interested in learning Russian well enough to teach it, and since this gathering was to include some people who spoke Russian, he invited me and he invited Michael also to attend. Michael caught a bad cold and wasn’t able to go. I went.

--------- END EXTRACT OF RUTH PAINE'S TESTIMONY Wed 18 Mar 1964 -- WC vol. II p. 430 ----------

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Sandy Larsen]

I'm afraid I didn't word that sentence well, Paul. What I meant was, why were they using a stroller to move if they weren't moving to the Neely apartment, which was only 1 1/2 blocks away. That was the theory I was working under, that the Oswalds never lived at Neely.

OK, Sandy. Here's what Ruth Paine herself said:

(1) She met Marina Oswald for the first time in her life at a party at Everett Glover's apartment on 22 February 1963. Everett had a roommate named Volkmar Schmidt. Everett had known Michael Paine through the Unitarian Church in Dallas. As engineers they had a lot in common, and also friends in common.

(2) Ruth and Michael had separated back in September 1962. They had been married for years and had two children. Everett hoped they would get back together. He invited them both to this party. Michael had a cold and couldn't go. Ruth heard that some Russian speaking people would be there, and she wanted to meet them.

(3) There were perhaps a dozen or more people at the party, mostly young Dallas engineers -- mostly in the oil business. But they were young liberals, and they were interested in politics. They had read about LHO in the newspapers, and Everett had him as a special guest. LHO had lived in the USSR and came back to the USA on his own free will. LHO would be the center of attention.

(4) The Oswalds were driven to this party by George and Jeanne DeMohrenschildt -- friends of both Everett Glover and Volkmar Schmidt, since George was himself an oil exploration specialist.

(5) At the party, LHO became the center of attention, as expected, as English was the preferred language, and everybody wanted to hear about the USSR. Marina had only the DeMohrenschildt's to speak Russian with her, but worse, baby June was cranky, and Marina had to try to get her to sleep. So George DeMohrenschildt asked Everett if Marina could take baby June to Everett's bedroom. Everett said OK.

(6) Ruth Paine didn't really want to hear about the USSR, she wanted to practice her Russian conversational skills, and besides, that, she was also a young mother, and was fond of babies. So Ruth Paine joined Jeane and Marina and June in the bedroom, and Ruth introduced herself.

(7) Marina was friendly and patient with Ruth's stumbling Russian words. Instead of sneering, or making fun of Ruth for making grammar mistakes, Marina would kindly correct Ruth's grammar, and explain the rules of Russian grammar. Ruth really appreciated that.

(8) Marina was a young mother, an educated pharmacologist, a native Russian speaker, and was a patient conversationalist. Ruth Paine was thrilled to meet somebody like Marina. So, Ruth gave Marina her address and phone number, and asked Marina for her address and phone number.

(9) Marina Oswald apologized that she had no phone number, but she said she enjoyed letter-writing, and she gave Ruth Paine her address on Ellsbeth Street.

(10) The next day Ruth Paine sent Marina Oswald a letter explaining how much she enjoyed meeting Marina, and that she would like to get together for lunch or dinner sometime. Knowing that Marina had no automobile, and that Dallas and Irving were 22 miles apart, Ruth offered to drive over with her own children to Ellsbeth Street.

(11) Ruth waited two days, five days, seven days, and more, but eventually she got her first letter from Marina Oswald. The return address on the envelope, however, was not Ellsbeth Street, but Neely Street.

(12) In her letter, Marina Oswald apologized for taking so long to return Ruth's letter, but she and LHO had been moving apartments. She now lived at 214 Neely Street.

And that's how that all went down, IIRC, according to both Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald. I see no convincing reason whatsoever to doubt their testimony.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Thanks for describing their first meaning, Paul. I hadn't heard it before.

Their are a number of reasons we question whether the Oswalds lived at the Apartment on Neely. For example, that their downstairs neighbors said Marina spoke English well (not broken English). That is what we are exploring.

[Paul Trejo]

We tend to think of Marina Prusakova as an innocent in all of this. I've read some thought-provoking stuff that indicates she spoke much better English than she let on (e.g. with Robert Webster in Leningrad). As John Armstrong has pointed out, Marina's cooperation with the government and her ability to supply evidence at the most opportune times is noticeable and quite obvious.

This would throw another variable into the Neely Street equation.

Do you know if Ruth spoke non-broken English with her acquaintances in Dallas, Gene?

If she didn't, then I think that that, in addition to Oswald's denials that they lived on Neely, gives us compelling reason to believe that they indeed did not live there. Plus all the other evidence that points in that direction.

Sandy, when John Armstrong wrote about Marina speaking "excellent" English, he was continuing rumors that somebody at a party in Minsk, Russia heard Marina speak English "perfectly fine." This was before she married LHO.

It had nothing to do with Dallas.

FURTHERMORE -- the Minsk rumor wasn't an official report. it was a personal opinion from a drinker at a party -- and in those social situations, if somebody can say, "Hello, how are you," in a foreign language, then that's a big deal.

What did Marina actually say? Probably, "Hello, how are you? What are you drinking?" in a thick accent. But John Anderson was happy to suggest that Marina Oswald was reading the Congressional Record behind closed doors in a smoke-filled room.

Until and unless we get an OFFICIAL account of Marina's English skills in Russia, naked rumors can fly like birds. They don't mean a thing.

It wasn't neighbors in Dallas who said Marina spoke English -- it was some drunk in Minsk.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 25, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Sandy Larsen]

We tend to think of Marina Prusakova as an innocent in all of this. I've read some thought-provoking stuff that indicates she spoke much better English than she let on (e.g. with Robert Webster in Leningrad). As John Armstrong has pointed out, Marina's cooperation with the government and her ability to supply evidence at the most opportune times is noticeable and quite obvious.

This would throw another variable into the Neely Street equation.

Do you know if Ruth spoke non-broken English with her acquaintances in Dallas, Gene?

If she didn't, then I think that that, in addition to Oswald's denials that they lived on Neely, gives us compelling reason to believe that they indeed did not live there. Plus all the other evidence that points in that direction.

Sandy, when John Armstrong wrote about Marina speaking "excellent" English, he was continuing rumors that somebody at a party in Minsk, Russia heard Marina speak English "perfectly fine." This was before she married LHO.

It had nothing to do with Dallas.

FURTHERMORE -- the Minsk rumor wasn't an official report. it was a personal opinion from a drinker at a party -- and in those social situations, if somebody can say, "Hello, how are you," in a foreign language, then that's a big deal.

What did Marina actually say? Probably, "Hello, how are you? What are you drinking?" in a thick accent. But John Anderson was happy to suggest that Marina Oswald was reading the Congressional Record behind closed doors in a smoke-filled room.

Until and unless we get an OFFICIAL account of Marina's English skills in Russia, naked rumors can fly like birds. They don't mean a thing.

It wasn't neighbors in Dallas who said Marina spoke English -- it was some drunk in Minsk.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Thanks Paul... that's precisely what I wanted to know.

[Thomas Graves]

We tend to think of Marina Prusakova as an innocent in all of this. I've read some thought-provoking stuff that indicates she spoke much better English than she let on (e.g. with Robert Webster in Leningrad). As John Armstrong has pointed out, Marina's cooperation with the government and her ability to supply evidence at the most opportune times is noticeable and quite obvious.

This would throw another variable into the Neely Street equation.

Do you know if Ruth spoke non-broken English with her acquaintances in Dallas, Gene?

If she didn't, then I think that that, in addition to Oswald's denials that they lived on Neely, gives us compelling reason to believe that they indeed did not live there. Plus all the other evidence that points in that direction.

Sandy, when John Armstrong wrote about Marina speaking "excellent" English, he was continuing rumors that somebody at a party in Minsk, Russia heard Marina speak English "perfectly fine." This was before she married LHO.

It had nothing to do with Dallas.

FURTHERMORE -- the Minsk rumor wasn't an official report. it was a personal opinion from a drinker at a party -- and in those social situations, if somebody can say, "Hello, how are you," in a foreign language, then that's a big deal.

What did Marina actually say? Probably, "Hello, how are you? What are you drinking?" in a thick accent. But John Anderson was happy to suggest that Marina Oswald was reading the Congressional Record behind closed doors in a smoke-filled room.

Until and unless we get an OFFICIAL account of Marina's English skills in Russia, naked rumors can fly like birds. They don't mean a thing.

It wasn't neighbors in Dallas who said Marina spoke English -- it was some drunk in Minsk.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Thanks Paul... that's precisely what I wanted to know.

Unless, of course, Marina was an English-speaking spy with a prostitute background, assigned to "hook up with" Marguerite Oswald's son, Lee.

http://oswaldsmother.blogspot.com/2009/10/from-marina-prusakova-with-love.html

Just sayin'

--Tommy

Edited January 26, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Greg Parker]

It wasn't neighbors in Dallas who said Marina spoke English -- it was some drunk in Minsk.

Go back and read Ed Ledoux's interviews of the Gray/Brays

Edited January 25, 2016 by Greg Parker

[James DiEugenio]

SL: Thanks Paul... that's precisely what I wanted to know.

Not it is not Sandy.

​The source for Marina speaking English in the USSR is not some guy at a party in Minsk.

Its Robert Webster, via an interview with Dick Russell. (Armstrong, pgs. 256-57) And it was not just a phrase or two. The conversation went on a long time. But Webster pointed out an interesting fact: Marina spoke understandable English, but with a heavy accent. This detail should be interesting to anyone with a bit of curiosity.

​And it was not in Minsk, Webster met her in Moscow.

​The first American defector in the wave of phony defections that began around this time was Nick Petrulli. Prior to this wave, there had been something like two defectors for over twenty years. (Melanson Spy Saga,, p. 24) But now there were suddenly three in a year, then Oswald and then two more behind him. In other words there were three times the previous number in 18 months than there had been in two decades. And by 1960, the number reached the teens.

​Webster worked for Rand Development Corporation. Its president, Henry Rand, had been a senior officer in the OSS. Executive George Bookbinder also worked for the OSS. Their Washington lobbyist, Christopher Bird, had been a CIA agent. (ibid, p. 25)

​Like Oswald, Webster went to the US Embassy and announced his intention to defect. Guess who he did this with? You got it--RIchard Snyder. The guy Oswald did it with. In fact, 72 hours before Oswald arrived, Snyder wrote a letter to his fellow State Dept.employees on his experience with American "defectors". The quotes are in the original. And he was referring to Webster. (DiEugenio, Destiny Betrayed, Second edition, p. 141) And when Oswald was preparing to leave, in 1961, he reportedly asked about the guy who had come to Russia right before him, Webster. Even though he was not supposed to know about him. (Melanson, p. 25))

Webster met Marina in 1959, when she was 19. Before she met Oswald. Is this how Oswald knew about Webster? Finally, after the assassination, the address of Wester's Leningrad apartment was found in Marina's address book. (Marrs, first edition, p. 117) For as Oswald was ejected from Moscow to Minsk, Webster was ejected from Moscow to Leningrad. From there, Webster applied for an exit visa. The KGB was on to both of them.

​Marina once told an acquaintance she had met her husband at a trade exhibition in Moscow. She was mistaking Webster for Oswald. (CD 5)

This is what you want to know Sandy. It tells us a good deal about Oswald, Marina, and the CIA's fake defector program, which the KGB had figured out pretty early.

Edited January 25, 2016 by James DiEugenio