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Was Lovelady A Big Fat Prevaricator, Or What?


Thomas Graves
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One step does seem about right Sandy. Stepping up for a better view or slowly moving out of the woman's way. It's easy to see why someone would think they were having a conversation with the woman completely ignoring everything going on behind her, like dozens of people wanting to use those same steps she's standing in front of. If that's never happened to you then count yourself lucky but I actually think they were both going in and he stopped and turned around to see what was going on. leaving her wondering what he's doing but who knows?

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13 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Also -- look at Billy Lovelady's pitiful English grammar: "we was talking to her."   This shows sloppiness in English usage, so that suggests sloppiness in his TIMING.   

Regards,
--Paul Trejo 

It suggest nothing of the sort.  Paul, once again you are making outlandish assumptions to try to support your timings.  

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On ‎1‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 7:58 AM, Ray Mitcham said:

It suggest nothing of the sort.  Paul, once again you are making outlandish assumptions to try to support your timings.  

Ray,

I have said that Billy Lovelady's abuse of English grammar also suggests sloppiness in his TIMING.   I stand by that, for the following reasons:

1.  If somebody is accustomed to abusing English grammar, then they are accustomed to being LAZY about English grammar.

2. If somebody is LAZY about English grammar, then they will substitute "close enough" English words for precise English words.

3. So, if somebody LAZY is using English to describe TIMING, they are just as likely to say "3 Minutes" when they really mean "3 Seconds."   (What do they care?)

I stand by that on grounds of common sense and general observation of LAZY human beings who abuse the basics of English grammar.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Ray,

I have said that Billy Lovelady's abuse of English grammar also suggests sloppiness in his TIMING.   I stand by that, for the following reasons:

1.  If somebody is accustomed to abusing English grammar, then they are accustomed to being LAZY about English grammar.

2. If somebody is LAZY about English grammar, then they will substitute "close enough" English words for precise English words.

3. So, if somebody is using English to describe TIMING, they are just as likely to say "3 Minutes" when they really mean "3 Seconds."   (What do they care?)

I stand by that on grounds of common sense and general observation of LAZY human beings who abuse the basics of English grammar.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

You are welcome to your assumptions.

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  • 2 months later...
On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 3:03 AM, Robert Prudhomme said:

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/7461156

Never seen this before. Bill Shelley giving a statement to the FBI on March 18, 1964. Go to Page 20.

Robert,

It's a good post.   In this affidavit, Bill Shelley says that at 12:15 on 11/22/1963, he was standing at the glass doors of the TSBD entrance.

Billy Lovelady was sitting on the steps in front of him.  Wesley Frazier, Sara Stanton and Carolyn Arnold, all TSBD employees, were also standing near him.  Shelley did not see LHO there.

Shelley adds that "immediately" after the JFK shots, "Billy Lovelady and I accompanied  some uniformed officers to the railroad yards" west of the TSBD.  They returned to the west entrance of the TSBD within  10 minutes.

In other words, there is no mention of any "three minute delay."

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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5 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Robert,

It's a good post.   In this affidavit, Bill Shelley says that at 12:15 on 11/22/1963, he was standing at the glass doors of the TSBD entrance.

Billy Lovelady was sitting on the steps in front of him.  Wesley Frazier, Sara Stanton and Carolyn Arnold, all TSBD employees, were also standing near him.  Shelley did not see LHO there.

Shelley adds that "immediately" after the JFK shots, "Billy Lovelady and I accompanied  some uniformed officers to the railroad yards" west of the TSBD.  They returned to the west entrance of the TSBD within  10 minutes.

In other words, there is no mention of any "three minute delay."

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

It couldn't have been "immediately" since there were no police officers that close to the steps during the assassination, so it must have been a few seconds, at least.

I believe Shelley did immediately run over to that part of the Island that's closest to the steps and encountered a running / crying Gloria Calvery there (she'd been standing only about 1/3 of the way down Elm Street).  I think that Shelley, after conferring with Calvery for a few seconds, ran into the TSBD to call his wife (and was therefore out of view while Couch-Darnell were filming the steps). By the time Couch-Darnell started filming the steps some thirty seconds after the assassination, Calvery (and a co-worker) had run across the street and started talking with Billy Lovelady on the steps (and were "captured" doing so in Couch-Darnell).

Shelley and Lovelady  may have started following some police officers to the railway yard at some point after all of that, imho.

--  Tommy  :sun

Sandy Larsen responded before had I edited the post, and I took the liberty of moving his reply here:

That's what I believe too. The presence of All White Woman (light-colored clothing & white scarf) at the stairway in Darnell/Couch is the key, IMO. It tells us that enough time had passed for Gloria Calvery to reach the stairway (since Gloria Calvery and All White Woman were standing together during the procession and shooting).

I believe they were coached to say that they waited 3 minutes for Calvery to arrive at the steps.

(All White Woman is the key because she is easily identifiable.)

Edited by Thomas Graves
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1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

It couldn't have been "immediately" since there were no police officers that close to the steps during the assassination, so it must have been a few seconds, at least.

I believe Shelley did immediately run over to that part of the Island that's closest to the steps and encountered a running / crying Gloria Calvery there (she'd been standing only about 1/3 of the way down Elm Street), and then ran back inside the TSBD to call his wife (while Couch - Darnell were filming the steps after Calvery had already started talking to Lovelady there some 30 seconds after the assassination), and then maybe Shelley and Lovelady started following some police officers to the railway yard.

--  Tommy  :sun


That's what I believe too. The presence of All White Woman (light-colored clothing & white scarf) at the stairway in Darnell/Couch is the key, IMO. It tells us that enough time had passed for Gloria Calvery to reach the stairway (since Gloria Calvery and All White Woman were standing together during the procession and shooting).

I believe they were coached to say that they waited 3 minutes for Calvery to arrive at the steps.

(All White Woman is the key because she is easily identifiable.)

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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7 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

It couldn't have been "immediately" since there were no police officers that close to the steps during the assassination, so it must have been a few seconds, at least.

I believe Shelley did immediately run over to that part of the Island that's closest to the steps and encountered a running / crying Gloria Calvery there (she'd been standing only about 1/3 of the way down Elm Street).  I think that Shelley, after conferring with Calvery for a few seconds, ran into the TSBD to call his wife (and was therefore out of view while Couch-Darnell were filming the steps). By the time Couch-Darnell started filming the steps some thirty seconds after the assassination, Calvery (and a co-worker) had run across the street and started talking with Billy Lovelady on the steps (and were "captured" doing so in Couch-Darnell).

Shelley and Lovelady  may have started following some police officers to the railway yard at some point after all of that, imho.

--  Tommy  :sun

Sandy Larsen responded before had I edited the post, and I took the liberty of moving his reply here:

That's what I believe too. The presence of All White Woman (light-colored clothing & white scarf) at the stairway in Darnell/Couch is the key, IMO. It tells us that enough time had passed for Gloria Calvery to reach the stairway (since Gloria Calvery and All White Woman were standing together during the procession and shooting).

I believe they were coached to say that they waited 3 minutes for Calvery to arrive at the steps.

(All White Woman is the key because she is easily identifiable.)

Tommy,

Your timetable seems fairly reasonable to me.

At what point, then, did Shelley and Lovelady look back to see Roy Truly and Officer Baker run into the TSBD front entrance (if you accept that)?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:


That's what I believe too. The presence of All White Woman (light-colored clothing & white scarf) at the stairway in Darnell/Couch is the key, IMO. It tells us that enough time had passed for Gloria Calvery to reach the stairway (since Gloria Calvery and All White Woman were standing together during the procession and shooting).

I believe they were coached to say that they waited 3 minutes for Calvery to arrive at the steps.

(All White Woman is the key because she is easily identifiable.)

My reply to Paul Trejo's question, "When did Shelley and Lovelady look back and watch Baker and Truly run into the TSBD?" :

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

I.e., does it really matter?  Why?  Why is it important?  So we can timestamp Baker's and Trulys entrance into the TSBD, or so we can somehow timestamp Shelley's and Lovelady's little adventure in the railway yard / parking lot and their alleged encountering "though I wouldn't swear to it" of Viki Adams on the first floor?

Or both?

Other than their testimonies and statements, how do we know that Shelley and Lovelady ever left the TSBD (except for Shelley's immediate little jaunt across the street to confer with Gloria Calvery)?  Since I now believe that Lovelady can be seen talking to Gloria Calvery in Couch-Darnell, I no longer believe that Lovelady was "captured" on film while walking down Elm Street Extension.  Shelley maybe, ....  but not Lovelady.

To bring this response to a (temporary?) end, I can only make a blanket statement -- I gotta believe intelligent, honest-"looking" Vicki Adams (and her sidekick, to a large extent), and I gotta disbelieve anything that contradicts her.  OK?

The second-floor lunch room encounter (if it happened) doesn't have any bearing on Oswald's (probable) innocence or (possible) guilt, imho.  OK?

--  Tommy :sun

 

 

Edited by Thomas Graves
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10 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

My reply to Paul Trejo's question, "When did Shelley and Lovelady look back and watch Baker and Truly run into the TSBD?" :

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

I.e., does it really matter?  Why?  Why is it important?  So we can timestamp Baker's and Trulys entrance into the TSBD, or so we can somehow timestamp Shelley's and Lovelady's little adventure in the railway yard / parking lot and their alleged encountering "though I wouldn't swear to it" of Viki Adams on the first floor?

Or both?

Other than their testimonies and statements, how do we know that Shelley and Lovelady ever left the TSBD (except for Shelley's immediate little jaunt across the street to confer with Gloria Calvery)?  Since I now believe that Lovelady can be seen talking to Gloria Calvery in Couch-Darnell, I no longer believe that Lovelady was "captured" on film while walking down Elm Street Extension.  Shelley maybe, ....  but not Lovelady.

To bring this response to a (temporary?) end, I can only make a blanket statement -- I gotta believe intelligent, honest-"looking" Vicki Adams (and her sidekick, to a large extent), and I gotta disbelieve anything that contradicts her.  OK?

The second-floor lunch room encounter (if it happened) doesn't have any bearing on Oswald's (probable) innocence or (possible) guilt, imho.  OK?

--  Tommy :sun

Tommy,

Yes, it matters, because there are many who claim that Shelley and Lovelady were lying when they said they saw Truly/Baker enter the TSBD.

They also claim they were lying when they met Vickie Adams inside the TSBD, 1st floor, about 10 minutes later.

The complexity is that we have Vickie's timetable, and it doesn't seem to add up to the Shelley\Lovelady timetable.

Then there's the timing of Gloria Calvary.  Then there's the question of whether that was the lady running up to the TSBD front steps.

Then there's the timing (and question) of the alleged film of Shelley\Lovelady heading towards the "little old island" connected to the Grassy Knoll.

You do believe that Shelley was talking to Gloria on film.  That's interesting to me.

Also, you do believe Vickie Adams and also Sandra Styles -- which is also interesting.

I just wanted to know your positions on these questions, Tommy, that's all.

Although I do agree with you that the 2nd floor lunch-room encounter with Baker/Truly did occur -- it is important to me that many CTers insist that it never happened.

Now, I believe this has a strong bearing on the JFK assassination (and thus on Oswald's guilt/innocence), namely, that if Baker/Truly lied about it, then we have the strings of a JFK conspiracy. 

If they didn't lie about it, then the JFK conspiracy strings are hiding elsewhere.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Tommy,

Yes, it matters, because there are many who claim that Shelley and Lovelady were lying when they said they saw Truly/Baker enter the TSBD.

They also claim they were lying when they met Vickie Adams inside the TSBD, 1st floor, about 10 minutes later.

The complexity is that we have Vickie's timetable, and it doesn't seem to add up to the Shelley\Lovelady timetable.

Then there's the timing of Gloria Calvary.  Then there's the question of whether that was the lady running up to the TSBD front steps.

Then there's the timing (and question) of the alleged film of Shelley\Lovelady heading towards the "little old island" connected to the Grassy Knoll.

You do believe that Shelley was talking to Gloria on film.  That's interesting to me.

Also, you do believe Vickie Adams and also Sandra Styles -- which is also interesting.

I just wanted to know your positions on these questions, Tommy, that's all.

Although I do agree with you that the 2nd floor lunch-room encounter with Baker/Truly did occur -- it is important to me that many CTers insist that it never happened.

Now, I believe this has a strong bearing on the JFK assassination (and thus on Oswald's guilt/innocence), namely, that if Baker/Truly lied about it, then we have the strings of a JFK conspiracy. 

If they didn't lie about it, then the JFK conspiracy strings are hiding elsewhere.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Dear Paul,

I choose to believe Catholic foster-homed, Catholic school girl and one-time prospective Catholic nun (and college-educated) Viki Adams' recollections, but not all of her (according-to-her) altered WC testimony, over the self-contradicting statements and testimonies of William Hoyt Shelley (convicted of petty theft after the assassination, best man, FWIW, at Gloria Calvery's July wedding) and Billy Nolan Lovelady (an enlisted Air Force dude who is convicted in Maryland, while he's still in the Air Force, of the felony trying to sell two stolen Air Force pistols and then becomes, uhh ...  a fugitive because he, uhhh ...  can't afford to make $25 (I assume) a-month payments on his suspended-sentence  fine (what's up with that?), and is financially "bailed out" by the stout anti-Integrationist Ochus V. Campbell  after Lovelady, uhhh ... moves all the way from Maryland to Texas and goes to work at, uhhh ...  the "Spider's Web" TSBD?  

(My favorite line from Lovelady's WC testimony is when he, in so many words, voluntarily states, "We entered the TSBD about 5(?) minutes after the assassination and I saw a girl on the first floor at the rear of the building, but I couldn't swear to it's being Viki Adams.")  LOL  Not the sharpest knife in the drawer, was ol' Billy?

A question for you, now:  Do you have a hard time accepting the possibility that Shelley and / or Lovelady were somehow involved with the assassination of JFK, or with the cover-up thereof?

--  Tommy :sun  

Some background on Billy Nolan Lovelady from a 2012 article by Larry Rivera:

"There still remains much to be investigated about Billy Nolan Lovelady: What exactly were his activities and assignments at Andrews Air Force Base as a member of the Base Supply Squadron, and was he proficient in the handling of guns and rifles, and was he ever considered to be AWOL on 12/7/62? [When he was arrested for trying to sell two stolen Air Force pistols.] How was he discharged from the service after his troubles with the law between 4/11/61 and 12/7/62? Why did he literally run from Maryland the way he did? How did he end up working in the TSBD as a running felon? How did he manage to convince O.V.Campbell (VP of the TSBD) to advance him $75.00 so he could pay off his fine in Maryland? If he could not pay the $75.00, how did he secure the $1,000 personal recognizance bond in Dallas? Why was he not fired for being arrested at his place of employment? Did Campbell ever find out about the details of his felony? Was there a prior relationship there? And, how was he able to start his trucking business in Denver after the assassination given the background and notoriety he then possessed? And where did this former warehouse worker get the money to do start a business and hire employees? Could Lee Harvey Oswald, Billy Nolan Lovelady, and perhaps even Thomas Arthur Valle (the designated patsy in Chicago who lucked out when the Chicago plot to kill Kennedy dissolved) have been steered and influenced because of the threats of dishonorable discharge? Was this some kind of a patsy club from which the conspirators could draw from at will? [...] Was Billy Nolan Lovelady an alternate patsy in case something went wrong with framing Oswald?"

Edited by Thomas Graves
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2 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Paul,

I chose to believe Catholic foster-homed, Catholic school girl and one-time prospective Catholic nun (and college-educated) Viki Adams' recollections, but not her, according-to-her, altered WC testimony, over the self-contradicting statements and testimonies of William Hoyt Shelley (convicted of petty theft after the assassination, best man, FWIW, at Gloria Calvery's July wedding) and Billy Nolan Lovelady (an enlisted Air Force dude who is convicted in Maryland, while he's still in the Air Force, of the felony trying to sell two stolen Air Force pistols and then becomes, uhh ...  a fugitive because he, uhhh ...  can't afford to make $25 (I assume) a-month payments on his suspended-sentence  fine (what's up with that?), and is financially "bailed out" by the stout anti-Integrationist Ochus V. Campbell  after Lovelady, uhhh ... moves all the way from Maryland to Texas and goes to work at, uhhh ...  the "Spider's Web" TSBD?  

(My favorite line from Lovelady's WC testimony is when he, in so many words, voluntarily states, "We entered the TSBD about 5(?) minutes after the assassination and I saw a girl on the first floor at the rear of the building, but I couldn't swear to it's being Viki Adams.")  LOL  Not the sharpest knife in the drawer, was ol' Billy?

A question for you, now:  Do you have a hard time accepting the possibility that Shelley and / or Lovelady were somehow involved with the assassination of JFK, or with the cover-up thereof?

--  Tommy :sun  

Some background on Billy Nolan Lovelady from a 2012 article by Larry Rivera:

"There still remains much to be investigated about Billy Nolan Lovelady: What exactly were his activities and assignments at Andrews Air Force Base as a member of the Base Supply Squadron, and was he proficient in the handling of guns and rifles, and was he ever considered to be AWOL on 12/7/62? [When he was arrested for trying to sell two stolen Air Force pistols.] How was he discharged from the service after his troubles with the law between 4/11/61 and 12/7/62? Why did he literally run from Maryland the way he did? How did he end up working in the TSBD as a running felon? How did he manage to convince O.V.Campbell (VP of the TSBD) to advance him $75.00 so he could pay off his fine in Maryland? If he could not pay the $75.00, how did he secure the $1,000 personal recognizance bond in Dallas? Why was he not fired for being arrested at his place of employment? Did Campbell ever find out about the details of his felony? Was there a prior relationship there? And, how was he able to start his trucking business in Denver after the assassination given the background and notoriety he then possessed? And where did this former warehouse worker get the money to do start a business and hire employees? Could Lee Harvey Oswald, Billy Nolan Lovelady, and perhaps even Thomas Arthur Valle the designated patsy in Chicago who lucked out when the Chicago plot to kill Kennedy dissolved) have been steered and influenced because of the threats of dishonorable discharge? Was this some kind of a patsy club from which the conspirators could draw from at will? [...] Was Billy Nolan Lovelady an alternate patsy in case something went wrong with framing Oswald?"

Tommy,

Actually, I find no reason whatsoever to suspect Bill Shelley or Billy Lovelady of any involvement of any kind with the assassination of JFK.

The fact that Billy Lovelady was not a choir boy does not make me suspicious in the slightest.  Does anybody have any MATERIAL evidence that links Lovelady to the JFK assassination?   If so, I haven't seen it.

That said -- I would not DOUBT hard evidence if it was shown to me.  This is because of the nature of my CT.  I believe that the Radical Right in Dallas killed JFK, and the Radical Right is composed of ordinary people with big mouths, like any other organization.

Rogues among the Dallas Police and Deputies were central to the JFK plot, IMHO.  This means that there was gossip all over Dallas about a possible JFK assassination.  Some people were closer to the scuttlebutt than others.

Dealey Plaza was an ideal location for many reasons, including logistical, as many have already pointed out.  But there was also a sociological reason for choosing Dealey Plaza.  The County Jail was right there on Dealey Plaza, and I've been told by residents of Dallas that public executions -- both electric chair and hangings -- were still conducted at Dallas County Jail in 1963.

So, Dealey Plaza was a killing field.

Add to this fact that the parking lot to the west of TSBD was mainly used for workers at the County Jail.  Dallas Deputies were the main holders of parking spaces there.

Furthermore, as Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig told Penn Jones Jr., that parking lot was always locked.  There was a single gate to the parking lot -- the only way in and the only way out.  That gate had a big padlock, and all renters of spaces had the key to that padlock.  It was mainly Dallas Deputies.

This means that the TSBD was continually surrounded by Dallas Police and other County officers, walking to and from their cars all day long.  Dealey Plaza had a police presence.

If a plainclothes Dallas Deputy were to walk into the TSBD, he would likely be allowed to roam free until the Superintendent, Roy Truly, saw him and offered to give him any assistance he wanted.  The same would likely be true of any uniformed DPD cops with him -- or even on their own.

The gossip about this or that public execution happening just across the street from the TSBD would likely be the buzz of the TSBD on any given day. 

Because of this social scenario, it is likely that street people who interact with policemen more often that ordinary people, would be inside the gossip of the Dallas County Jail more than usual. 

Therefore, if there was a rumor that JFK was going to be killed in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/1963, it is likely that Dallas Deputies would have heard the gossip first (according to my CT)  and then street-savvy folks like Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady would have heard it second.

So -- it is not impossible that Bill and Billy knew of rumors of the JFK murder before it happened -- and possibly were not surprised when it happened. 

Yet I see no cause for suggesting "involvement" on their part.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

Edited by Paul Trejo
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4 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Tommy,

Actually, I find no reason whatsoever to suspect Bill Shelley or Billy Lovelady of any involvement of any kind with the assassination of JFK.

The fact that Billy Lovelady was not a choir boy does not make me suspicious in the slightest.  Does anybody have any MATERIAL evidence that links Lovelady to the JFK assassination?   If so, I haven't seen it.

That said -- I would not DOUBT hard evidence if it was shown to me.  This is because of the nature of my CT.  I believe that the Radical Right in Dallas killed JFK, and the Radical Right is composed of ordinary people with big mouths, like any other organization.

Rogues among the Dallas Police and Deputies were central to the JFK plot, IMHO.  This means that there was gossip all over Dallas about a possible JFK assassination.  Some people were close to the scuttlebutt than others.

Dealey Plaza was an ideal location for many reasons, including logistical, as many have already pointed out.  But there was also a sociological reason for choosing Dealey Plaza.  The County Jail was right there on Dealey Plaza, and I've been told by residents of Dallas that public executions -- both electric chair and hangings -- were still conducted at Dallas County Jail in 1963.

So, Dealey Plaza was a killing field.

Add to this fact that the parking lot to the west of TSBD was mainly used for workers at the County Jail.  Dallas Deputies were the main holders of parking spaces there.

Furthermore, as Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig told Penn Jones Jr., that parking lot was always locked.  There was a single gate to the parking lot -- the only way in and the only way out.  That gate had a big padlock, and all renters of spaces had the key to that padlock.  It was mainly Dallas Deputies.

This means that the TSBD was continually surrounded by Dallas Police and other County officers, walking to and from their cars all day long.  Dealey Plaza had a police presence.

If a plainclothes Dallas Deputy were to walk into the TSBD, he would likely be allowed to roam free until the Superintendent, Roy Truly, saw him and offered to give him any assistance he wanted.  The same would likely be true of any uniformed DPD cops with him -- or even on their own.

The gossip about this or that public execution happening just across the street from the TSBD would likely be the buzz of the TSBD on any given day. 

Because of this social scenario, it is likely that street people who interact with policemen more often that ordinary people, would be inside the gossip of the Dallas County Jail more than usual. 

Therefore, if there was a rumor that JFK was going to be killed in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/1963, it is likely that Dallas Deputies would have heard the gossip first (according to my CT)  and then street-savvy folks like Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady would have heard it second.

So -- it is not impossible that Bill and Billy knew of rumors of the JFK murder before it happened -- and possibly were not surprised when it happened. 

Yet I see no cause for suggesting "involvement" on their part.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

Dear Paul,

LOL.

Whatever.

Bye.

--  Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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On 3/15/2017 at 4:22 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Paul,

LOL.

Whatever.

Bye.

--  Tommy :sun

Whatever?

I find nothing -- not the slightest bit of evidence -- that Billy Lovelady lied at any point. 

Yes, he was a slow-speaker.   Nor was Billy a pillar of society.   So what?

If you have a case, Tommy, show your evidence -- or why bother at all?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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16 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Whatever?

I find nothing -- not the slightest bit of evidence -- that Billy Lovelady lied at any point. 

Yes, he was a slow-speaker.   Nor was Billy a pillar of society.   So what?

If you have a case, Tommy, show your evidence -- or why bother at all?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Do you believe Lovelady over what Vicki Adams told author Barry Ernest?

PS  What's your problem?

Edited by Thomas Graves
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