A Couple of Real Gems from the "Harvey and Lee" Website

[Mathias Baumann]

2 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Sounds like Jim has the assassination plot all figured out. Time to take this to Morley and get exposure in the national media. Oh that's right-while Morley has wandered over to the conspiracy side to some degree, he hasn't totally lost touch with reality. He would say something like "What's your theory" and when he heard the ramblings of John Armstrong he would beat a hasty retreat as will anyone living in the real world.

Tracy,

Do you not wonder why CIA counterintelligence kept a super secret file on Oswald? Why they decided to withhold vital information about him from the Mexico City station? Why Phillips lied about the tapes being destroyed? Why they lied about the surveillance cameras being out of order? Why Oswald was taken off the watch list AFTER he had met a KGB agent?

 

[Jim Hargrove]

31 minutes ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Jim,

That is highly interesting. What is your source for that?

Do you know if Phillips might have been involved in setting up the radio debate between Oswald and Bringuier?

 

Mathias,

It's from Harvey and Lee; scattered around a bit but mostly from these two excerpts:

Around 1:15 am KLIF radio announcer Russ Knight approached the entrance
to the police station and asked if anyone had seen District Attorney Henry Wade. Jack
Ruby, who was milling around talking to people said, "I'll show you" and escorted
Knight to the basement. Before reaching the basement Ruby asked Knight, twice, to
ask District Attorney Wade if he thought Oswald was "insane." After reaching the base­-
ment Ruby once again approached Wade and told him that radio announcer Russ
Knight wanted to speak with him.142

As Knight began talking with Wade, Dallas Police Lieutenant James Gilmore
saw Ruby and asked him what he was doing at the police station after midnight. Ruby
told Gilmore that he was passing out sandwiches and planning to deliver sandwiches to
KLIF radio, the station owned by Gordon McLendon.143

NOTE: Jack Ruby listed Gordon McLendon, the owner of Dallas radio station KLIF,
as one of his six closest friends. McClendon had known career CIA officer David Atlee
Phillips since both men were in their teens and attended school in Fort Worth. In the
1970's McLendon joined Phillips to form the Association of Former Intelligence Offic-
ers (AFIO).

....

Jack Ruby-1:30 am to 6:00am

After Russ Knight finished talking with Henry Wade he and Ruby walked out
of the police station. Ruby asked Knight if he needed a ride to the KLIF station, but
Knight declined and walked to KLIF, while Ruby walked to his car.147

About 1:45am Ruby arrived at KLIF with sandwiches and soft drinks and again
talked with Knight. At 2:00am, with Ruby nearby, Knight went on the air and told ra­-
dio listeners, "Through a tip from a local nightclub owner I asked Mr. Wade the ques-
tion of Oswald's insanity."

Around 2:15am, following the radio broadcast, Knight and Ruby left the radio
station. On the steps of the building Ruby handed Knight the text of a speech called
"Heroism" from H.L. Hunt's LIFE Line radio program, broadcast on radio station
KRLD. Ruby told Knight there were elements such as Hunt's in Dallas that hated Presi­-
dent Kennedy.

Knight remembered the late night incident and said, "Ruby had the speech but
he didn't seem to be cognizant fully of what the speech was or actually what side that
he stood on ..... just mentioned like there is an element here that hates, that hated Mr.
Kennedy." When Knight asked Ruby if he meant the Hunt's, Ruby said nothing.148

NOTE: After Ruby shot Oswald, Knight began to think about the "Heroism" speech that
Ruby gave him and said, "It seemed to me like too much of a coincidence that he should
be carrying a speech called 'Heroism' and then for him to shoot Oswald on Sunday
mormng...."149

--From Harvey and Lee, pp. 904-905, Copyright © 2003 by John Armstrong.  All rights reserved.

Terrific summation on Phillips, by the way.  Thank you!  I'll do some checking on the "debate."

[W. Tracy Parnell]

47 minutes ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Tracy,

Do you not wonder why CIA counterintelligence kept a super secret file on Oswald? Why they decided to withhold vital information about him from the Mexico City station? Why Phillips lied about the tapes being destroyed? Why they lied about the surveillance cameras being out of order? Why Oswald was taken off the watch list AFTER he had met a KGB agent?

 

The CIA does not give out information as a matter of policy. Many researchers seem to not understand that. People like Helms, Angleton, Dulles and so on felt they had a higher oath and that was to the CIA and was the nature of the job they held-they didn't see it as lying. Angleton controlled information very closely. Many of the things certain researchers attach a sinister meaning to are probably the CIA just trying to keep the secrets and also covering up their own incompetence. 

[Ray Mitcham]

8 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

The CIA does not give out information as a matter of policy. Many researchers seem to not understand that. People like Helms, Angleton, Dulles and so on felt they had a higher oath and that was to the CIA and was the nature of the job they held-they didn't see it as lying. Angleton controlled information very closely. Many of the things certain researchers attach a sinister meaning to are probably the CIA just trying to keep the secrets and also covering up their own incompetence. 

C.I.A.oath.

“I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.” Schooled CIA employees know that the Constitution also defines the role of federal employees: "To establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty."

 

[Michael Walton]

53 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said:

C.I.A.oath.

“I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.” Schooled CIA employees know that the Constitution also defines the role of federal employees: "To establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty."

Ray - what is your point? I took that same oath when I worked for the government years ago. And yes, I can honestly say that I did honest work while there.

But just because they take an oath doesn't mean everyone does honest work there.  Tell me, Hoover was the top man at the FBI.  Do you really think he upheld his duties faithfully when he kept his scandal files on people? Or how about when he tried to get King to commit suicide?

[Michael Walton]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Jim,

That is highly interesting. What is your source for that?

Do you know if Phillips might have been involved in setting up the radio debate between Oswald and Bringuier?

Mathis, what exactly are you trying to learn here?  You seem to be all over the place, curious about Russian, Oswald's language capabilities, then you delve into Webster. What exactly are you trying to learn here? Instead of getting into the minutiae of this crazy story, you may want to step back and just ask yourself if this whole caper passes the smell test, which it obviously does not.

[Michael Walton]

4 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

I would try this. I would take your "evidence" for two Oswalds to the US Congress, an investigative journalist such as Morley, or any other official or person in authority and see how far you get. You will be laughed at.  I have said this before and I'll say it again. Perhaps I am wrong and there was a conspiracy in JFK case and that fact will be proven. If it is fine-so be it. But I can tell you this with 100 percent certainty. The "Harvey & Lee" theory is a load of nonsense. I would bet my life, my house and all my belongings on that fact. But I can't stop people from believing it (or claiming to). I can only try to point them in the right direction.

My thoughts exactly, Tracy Parnell. The Texas Monthly article quote I posted above when the reporter interviewed Armstrong way back in 1998 about this crazy story also says pretty much the same thing - totally implausible and does not pass the smell test. Like you said, too, people are going to believe what they want.  Just like my brother-in-law believed that when you throw the REC switch on a car's AC system, it turns on a magical second motor causing the air to get ice cold. No amount of reasoning or explaining could get him to change his mind that this was not true.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

Thanks Michael and I appreciate your contributions to this thread.

[Jim Hargrove]

10 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

And the obvious reason you guys won't actually use what is at that link to debunk Oswald simultaneously attending two schools is that it DOESN'T debunk it. It doesn't explain it.

So whenever Jim presents the evidence, all you guys do is post that link. The link that proves nothing.

The link to Mr. Parker’s private site proves nothing, but H&L critics want to pretend it does.  So they post the link and run away, hoping at least some readers will believe there is an explanation there.  But there isn’t.

C’mon men, the Harvey and Lee Menace® is right here!  Man up and tell us in your own words why we can’t believe our lying eyes when we look at school records shown in the Warren volumes that indicate “Lee Harvey Oswald” attended school in New Orleans and New York simultaneously.  Don’t just post the usual link and run away.

This is a debate forum!  Use your own words to ‘splain yourselves.  I’ll even gather the docs together, again, to make it easy for you.  But, I think you'll be afraid to do it.

Will anyone find the courage to debate the evidence HERE?

So....

In 1953, Marguerite and LEE were living in a basement apartment at 1455 Sheridan while LEE was attending PS 44 in New York City. After the assassination SAC John Malone, the FBI agent in charge of the New York Office, inspected Oswald's original court file in the presence of Judge Florence Kelley. Malone took notes and sent a report to FBI Director Hoover the following day. Malone wrote, "Oswald's attendance record at PS #44 from 3/23/53 to 1/12/54 was 171 and 11 half-days present and 18 and 11 half days absent. If LEE Oswald's 182 days of attendance (171 full days, 11 1/2 days) and 18 absences are plotted on 1953 and 1954 calendars it is easy to see that LEE Oswald attended PS 44 full time during the entire 1953 school year.

 
In the fall of 1953 LEE Oswald was attending the eighth grade at PS 44 in New York, while HARVEY Oswald and his caretaker/mother were living at 126 Exchange Place in New Orleans. HARVEY was enrolled in the eighth grade at Beauregard Junior High, and because he attended school part-time he was not assigned a home room. On page 817, of Warren Volume 22, there is a copy of Oswald's cumulative school records at Beauregard.  The first row, highlighted in yellow, is the fall semester of 1953 and shows that Oswald attended a General Science class, a Physical Education class, and attended 89 days of school with only one absence. The second row is for the last half of the eighth grade (spring semester).  The third row shows final grades, absences, and tardies for the entire 53-54 school year (eighth grade).

 

C’mon, men!  Tell us RIGHT HERE all about the secret at your Magic Link. Or just paste the secret right here!  Man up and tell us what’s wrong with these school records!!  Cat got your tongues?  

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

If Jim or Sandy believe that the information at this link

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1500-one-more-attempt-at-those-darn-school-records

really "proves nothing", perhaps they could explain why. Then anyone who is interested in the topic of Oswald's school records can take the simple step of clicking on the link, to compare the two interpretations.

Here's another link for Jim to either check out (if he sincerely wants to question his beliefs) or scream and shout about (if he doesn't):

https://www.amazon.com/Harvey-Oswalds-Cold-Assassination-Reinvestigated-ebook/dp/B00IXOA5ZK

Anyone who is genuinely interested in the topic of Oswald's school records will find it covered in Volume Two, a few pages into Part One: Symbiosis and Synthesis: 1954-1956.

Happy reading!

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Sandy,

Thanks for pointing out that misleading reference on page 5 of Harvey and Lee ("... in December 1958. A month later, he took, and passed, a military language exam in the Russian language.")

Oswald actually took the test two months later, not one month later. Sadly, Armstrong does not provide a source for his claim that Oswald passed the test. In the absence of any such evidence, I think it's safe to conclude that it wasn't a pass-or-fail type of test.

Armstrong's implication, that Oswald passed a test after just one month of studying, sounds a lot more impressive than what actually happened: after at least two months of studying, Oswald rated poorly in a test, just as one would expect from an American who began learning Russian in his teens.

That isn't the only misleading passage. This is from page 4:

<blockquote>One of the unexplained curiosities, which always perplexed and intrigued me, was Oswald's near perfect command of the Russian language, which was allegedly self-taught and mastered within a couple of months ... I wondered how Oswald, with a 9th grade education, could have mastered the Russian language within a few months.</blockquote>

Of course, Oswald never had a "near perfect command of the Russian language", and he never "mastered the Russian language", let alone "within a couple of months" or "within a few months." At the time he took the test, he had a "poor" command of the language. Even at his best, several years later, he made frequent grammatical mistakes. Again, this is exactly what one would expect from an American who had begun learning Russian in his teens.

There is nothing that requires the Oswald who defected to have been a native speaker of Russian, as 'Harvey and Lee and Marguerite and Marguerite' doctrine demands.

Sandy writes:

<blockquote>The theory is that Russian speaking HARVEY immigrated to the United States when he was in about the 4th grade. And that would explain why Oswald would pass the Russian Test -- designed for native speakers, according to Bugliosi -- with poor scores. He spoke at a 4th grade level. (At least that's my understanding of the theory.)</blockquote>

But there is only a very remote chance that the hypothetical Hungarian boy would have been brought up in a Russian-speaking family, and the only piece of evidence we have about the ages at which Russian was taught in Hungarian schools states that it was taught only from grade 5 onwards. The hypothetical Hungarian boy could not realistically have left Hungary with a native speaker's knowledge of Russian when he was in the fourth grade.

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Tracy Parnell writes:

<blockquote>I would take your "evidence" for two Oswalds to the US Congress, an investigative journalist such as Morley, or any other official or person in authority and see how far you get. You will be laughed at.</blockquote>

Of course the evidence will be laughed at by any sensible person. The problem is that this car-crash of a theory is liable to cause rational critics of the lone-nut theory to be tarred with the same brush (Tracy and I will probably disagree about whether this is a good or bad thing).

On the plus side, the 'Harvey and Lee and Marguerite and Marguerite' cult doesn't seem to have attracted many followers.

[Jim Hargrove]

As I predicted, Mr. Bojczuk just gives us another link to Greg Parker (now doubled to two links!) and has nothing to say on his own about the conflicting school records.  In other words, he refuses to debate the subject on the "JFK Assassination Debate" forum.  What a surprise!

Let me go through this again, this time taking a longer look at the Beauregard records.

First, here's the PS44 records from New York City, summarized as follows:

In 1953, Marguerite and LEE were living in a basement apartment at 1455 Sheridan while LEE was attending PS 44 in New York City. After the assassination SAC John Malone, the FBI agent in charge of the New York Office, inspected Oswald's original court file in the presence of Judge Florence Kelley. Malone took notes and sent a report to FBI Director Hoover the following day. Malone wrote, "Oswald's attendance record at PS #44 from 3/23/53 to 1/12/54 was 171 and 11 half-days present and 18 and 11 half days absent. If LEE Oswald's 182 days of attendance (171 full days, 11 1/2 days) and 18 absences are plotted on 1953 and 1954 calendars it is easy to see that LEE Oswald attended PS 44 full time during the entire 1953 school year.

Now let’s see how the PS 44 and Beauregard records conflict with each other.

I’m reposting below the Beauregard cumulative record for LHO and below that two pages from an FBI report analyzing it.  Remember that the PS44 records clearly indicated that LHO attended more than 62 school days (and was absent three and a fraction days) for the semester beginning 9/14/53 at the NYC school.
 

 



 

Page 10 of the FBI report summarizes the attendance data in the “Absent,” “Tardy,” “Left” and “Re-Ad” columns, which are explained, according to the FBI agents, starting at the bottom of page 10 and continuing to page 11 by William Head, assistant principal at Warren Easton High School, who received the Beauregard records for incoming students.  The FBI’s summary of Head’s explanation has caused Greg Parker and Tracy Parnell to argue against David Josephs and me for years, because Head seemed to say two contradictory things.

At the bottom of page 10, the FBI indicates he said that the “Re ad” column stood for “Re Admitted” and “would represent a total listing of the school days for a given school year.”  But later in the very same paragraph, now at the top of page 11, the report indicates that Head said a school year regularly consisted of 180 days and that “school days in any given year must not fall below 170” and that “therefore the numbers listed opposite this abbreviation indicated the number of school days that Oswald attended for a given school year.”

So which is it?  Does the “Re-Ad” column represent the number of school days in a school semester or year, or the number of days a student actually attended during that period?

The answer is right before us in the documents shown above.    In the actual Beauregard cumulative record for LHO (top document above), look at the very last entry on the far right under the “Re-Ad” column.  It shows a total of “168” days for the 1954-55 school year.  Tracy Parnell wants you to believe that number, like the numbers in the “Re-Ad” column for the previous school year, represent the number of total days in the school year.

But that can’t be!  Head indicated that Louisiana law dictated a minimum of 170 school days in a school year, and so if we’re to believe Tracy’s interpretation, every student report card at Beauregard for the 1954-55 school year was evidence that Louisiana law was being broken.  On the other hand, using my interpretation (that the “168” indicated the actual days LHO attended school) we can make perfect sense of these numbers.  Adding Oswald’s 168 days of attendance and his 12 absences comes out to exactly 180 days, just what Head said comprised a typical Beauregard school year!

The “Re Ad” column clearly indicates the number of days a student actually attended school.  So let’s look at the first semester of the 1953-54 school year at Beauregard.  It indicates that Oswald attended 89 days and was absent once, for a total of 90 school days.

For the 1953 fall semester at PS 44 in New York, Oswald attended 62 and a fraction days and was absent three and a fraction days for a total of 66 school days accounted for.  Add those 66 days to the 90 days from Beauregard and you get at total of 156 days, equivalent to nearly an entire school year! Despite whatever spin Tracy cares to put on this, the NYC and Louisiana school records for fall semester starting in 1953 clearly show two Lee Harvey Oswalds attending two different schools at the same time!

Would anyone like to debate this right here?  Or will you just point this way or that way or anywhere but here?

Edited August 24, 2017 by Jim Hargrove

[Michael Walton]

Greg Parker puts the final nail in the coffin in the "two Oswalds attending schools in NO and NYC" silliness that Armstrong (masquerading as Hargrove?) is passing on as a real-life event.

Jeremy and others have posted more than enough  proof  that this story is nothing but a fairy tale.

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, Michael Walton said:

Greg Parker puts the final nail in the coffin in the "two Oswalds attending schools in NO and NYC" silliness that Armstrong (masquerading as Hargrove?) is passing on as a real-life event.

Jeremy and others have posted more than enough  proof  that this story is nothing but a fairy tale.

Of course, Mr. Walton cannot discuss the evidence.  He merely declares victory, declares I may be John Armstrong, and runs away.  What courage!

So, let's change the subject.  Maybe Mr. Walton would like to explain why, when Lee Harvey Oswald was clearly living in Minsk in the USSR, he was also at the Bolton Ford Dealership in New Orleans.

Will Mr. Walton debate THIS evidence here on the "JFK Assassination Debate" forum?  Of course he won't.  Anyway, here are the details.

The Bolton Ford Incident

On January 20, 1961, while Harvey Oswald was in Minsk, two men visited the Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans. They spoke with Assistant Manager Oscar Deslatte and said they were interested in purchasing 10 Ford Econoline Trucks. As one of the men discussed the purchase with Deslatte the other man, who identified himself as Joseph Moore, made a list of the equipment they desired on the trucks.

Deslatte went to his boss, truck manager Fred Sewell, and told him about the two men who wanted to purchase trucks and said they represented the "Free Democrats of Cuba or some such organization." Sewell told Deslatte to give the men a bid of $75 over their cost for the trucks. Deslatte and Sewell returned to Deslatte's desk and wrote out a bid form to Joseph Moore. As Deslatte was filling out the bid form, Joseph Moore and the other man began talking to both Deslatte and Sewell.42

When Moore saw that Deslatte had written his name on the bid form he asked that the name be changed to "Friends of Democratic Cuba." Moore's friend looked· at the form and said, "By the way, you'd better put my name down there because I'm the man handling the money." When Deslatte asked, "What's your name?" the man replied, "Lee Oswald."61-04

Sewell described Lee Oswald as, "5-foot-6 or 5-foot-7, thin, about 140 pounds, and thought he needed a meal and a haircut. He recalled that Oswald was clean but "wasn't well dressed and he wasn't shabby." Sewell described the second man, who identified himself as Joseph Moore as, "Kind of heavy-set ..... not overly, but well built ..... he was curly haired ..... he had a scar over his left eye ..... olive complexioned and seemed to be educated ..... he had a Cuban accent and looked like a Cuban."

Deslatte gave the original bid form to "Lee Oswald" and kept a copy for his files, which he gave to the FBI following the assassination.61-05

The purchaser was listed as the "Friends of Democratic Cuba," 402 St. Charles Street, New Orleans, LA., phone number JA-5-0763.43 After talking with Deslate for over an hour the two men took the original bid form and left.

NOTE: The Friends of Democratic Cuba was incorporated on January 9, 1961 in
Louisiana. The address of 402 St. Charles Street was listed as vacant in the 1960, 1961
and 1962 New Orleans City directories.

--Above excerpted from Harvey and Lee, pp. 325-326, Copyright © 2003 by John Armstrong

Remarkable about the “Friends of Democratic Cuba” were the names of two of its officers. The image shown below is a composite scan from the beginning and the end of the Louisiana Articles of Incorporation for Friends of Democratic Cuba, Inc.

 

W. Guy Banister worked at the infamous 544 Camp Street address in New Orleans, made famous by the Jim Garrison investigation.

Gerard Tugague employed Oswald briefly in late 1955 and early 1956 at the 300 Sanlin Building in New Orleans.

On our website John Armstrong wrote, “This well-known incident was cited in Warren Commission Document 75 p. 677 and the House Select Committee on Assassinations Vol. X; FBI 67-39565-66. For years some JFK researchers believed that an impostor was using Oswald's name while the alleged future assassin was in Russia. As more and more examples surfaced it became clear that another man, using the name "Lee Harvey Oswald," was associating with anti-Castro Cubans and CIA operatives in the southern United States during the very years the Warren Commission placed him in the Soviet Union. This man was southern born LEE Oswald, and is a clear indication that both Oswalds were active in American intelligence operations.”

There are other examples of LEE Oswald operating in the U.S. while HARVEY Oswald was in Russia. For an overview, see THIS PAGE on HarveyandLee.net. Below is a copy of the FBI report covering this incident. Compare it to the Garrison interview excerpted above.