A Couple of Real Gems from the "Harvey and Lee" Website

[Michael Walton]

It is important to note the "spy in his own mind" quote that Bill Simpich wrote so eloquently about in State Secret. I think that many HL supporters are misinterpreting that statement, or not fully understanding, or do not *want* to understand and look at alternative stories based more on fact and documentation vs HL, which is based much more on supposition, taking statements out of context, assumptions, witness coercion and/or encouragement - the fitting the round peg in a square hole, if you will. There is a tremendous amount of well documented evidence in SS that proves the narrative to be correct and the HL story to be incorrect.

That statement goes to the essence of understanding who LHO was. LHO was like any other low-income kid with a sense of adventure. He joined the Marines because, prospects were low but knowing he wanted to do something "more" with his life, he must have left an impression with the military enough that they moved him into intelligence areas like manning the radar for U2 flights. In other words, he was probably a crafty guy and the brass wanted to take advantage of his smarts. Though probably boring and mundane, LHO also felt good about doing this, once again feeling in-the-know with doing "secret agent" work.

So it's important not to dismiss the "spy in his own mind" statement that Bill Simpich wrote so eloquently about in State Secret. It goes to the heart of the SS narrative.  And it actually proves that the HL never happened.

It's important too to remember the 5-10 165 announcement on the radio mere minutes after the assassination.  How could anyone have known that? It's simple.  It came from the different legends that the secret agents developed for both Webster and Oswald when they did their fake "defection" two years before Dallas. Those legends were carefully crafted and could be easily interchangeable, which is further proven by Simpich's outstanding section when he shows two different documents using this 5-10 legend, ones even published by the press.

As for LHO and Webster's similar appearance, I think it's being disingenious to show a photo that they do not look a like.  They actually do as shown here:

The point though is not to have them be clones of each other.  To the contrary, the point is for them to have a close resemblance; that, combined with their interchangeable legends set up by the secret agents, would allow either of them to move in and out at will during their fake "defections."

[Jim Hargrove]

If you want to conclude these two men had an uncanny resemblance, be my guest.  I don’t think they do.  

 

Any statement that Oswald “was a spy in his own mind” clearly suggests he wasn’t really a spy.  Prove me wrong.  Show me where SS concludes he WAS a spy.

Although SS states that “Oswald’s documented weight for the last seven years of his life varied between 131-140 pounds,” we have to ask why his final USMC paperwork, including a medical report under the heading “MEASUREMENTS AND OTHER FINDINGS” indicates his weight was 150 lbs. and his height was 71” (5’11”).  His discharge paperwork indicates the same thing.

 

 

Documents published about LHO are almost evenly divided between 5’ 9” and 5’ 11”.  Hardly any list him as 5’ 10”.  Sure seems like a description of two different fellows, but if we split the difference, we get 5’ 10”, the exact height shown in the Lee Henry Oswald CIA document of October 10, 1963.  This supposed to make us think of 5’ 10” William Webster?  Really?  The fifteen pound difference between 150 lbs. and 165 lbs. really isn't very much.

The amazing thing about this so-called mole hunt is that the CIA's classified message indicating Oswald had matured and was safely allowed back in the U.S. occurred within hours of the “information received” date on the cancellation of the FBI Wanted Notice Card.

 

The effect of both of these documents was to decrease Federal monitoring of “Lee Harvey Oswald” just weeks after he had been arrested for his so-called pro-Communist Cuba activities in New Orleans.  It would now be possible for Harvey to be set up as the assassination patsy without undue Secret Service and FBI monitoring.

I’m sorry, I just do not believe this is best explained a “mole hunt.”

[Joe Bauer]

Does anyone else see what I see here?

Looking at the pictures of Webster and Oswald side by side and comparing that Oswald photo to the one of Oswald being paraded around in the Dallas PD in his T-shirt , the Oswald in custody picture shows a much longer space between Oswald's lower lip to the bottom of his chin than the side-by-side Webster/Oswald photo of Oswald IMO.

Of course the Webster/Oswald photo of Oswald taken years earlier than the Dallas PD one would show a fuller/fatter and smoother feature younger face, as Oswald would have a few years older face in the Dallas PD photo. But still, there is something different about these two faces.

Hard to describe.  Just a gut feeling. But the lower lip to bottom of chin distance definitely looks different to me.

Seldom get into this thread as I haven't spent enough informed time reading the subject proposition or the contrary debate takes.

But, it's hard to totally dismiss the two Oswald theory out of hand. There are enough Albert Guy Bogard type Oswald sightings and even interacting stories that seem to have legs that are intriguing.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Joe Bauer

[Sandy Larsen]

22 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I may not have written my original note clearly enough, Sandy.  I didn’t mean to say that the CIA officially took notice of anything about “Oswald.”

Jim,

What you wrote is clear. I think I misread it somehow.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

8 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

It is important to note the "spy in his own mind" quote that Bill Simpich wrote so eloquently about in State Secret.

Michael,

Just because Bill wrote something in State Secret doesn't make it so. Even Jim DiEugenio has problems with State Secret. (It seems like you usually agree with Jim.)

 

[Sandy Larsen]

5 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Looking at the pictures of Webster and Oswald side by side and comparing that Oswald photo to the one of Oswald being paraded around in the Dallas PD in his T-shirt , the Oswald in custody picture shows a much longer space between Oswald's lower lip to the bottom of his chin than the side-by-side Webster/Oswald photo of Oswald IMO.

Joe,

That photo of Oswald, to the right of Webster's photo, appears to be a composite of LEE's and HARVEY's photos, Harvey's half-face being on the right. I gave a little presentation of that in this post:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/23677-a-couple-of-real-gems-from-the-harvey-and-lee-website/?do=findComment&comment=359980

That might explain the chin length difference that you describe. And yes, I do see it myself.

If you want to see hard evidence that there were two Oswald's (not mere photos or sightings) I suggest you study Oswald's school records for his fall semester of 8th grade. He attended both Public School 44 in NYC and Beauregard Junior High in New Orleans simultaneously that semester. Of course, it was really the two Oswalds attending the two schools.

 

Edited September 30, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Michael Walton]

State Secret is the only narrative I've come across that even begins to address the LHO fake defection narrative eloquently and plausibly. The whole operation had the hands of intelligence all over it.  Even the reporter Johnson, playing the role of the fake "inquiring mind" reporter, tried to get on with the secret agents and instead was used like she was, writing the stories about Webster and LHO.

It's obvious that both Webster and LHO, two men who were probably loyal and thought they were doing things for the good of their country, were used as dangles in this so-called "defection" caper. Johnson, who had to have been fed info about either of them, simply got the easily switched out legends that were created for them as seen here:

Peter Dale Scott then goes on to write eloquently about the shifting around of legends, including the legend on LHO for the molehunt:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=48692#relPageId=3

Meanwhile, if the plan is to argue apples and oranges, I saw this yesterday at a store:

A 2-3 inch height difference is hardly something to base a theory on. Instead, it's not the height difference itself that is the issue - the real, underlying issue is why there is a discrepancy in the records and it's easy to figure out once you read SS.  It's simply a matter of creating differing legends by the secret agents so they can easily be switched out depending on the type of intelligence operation that was being conducted.

The entire key to this is what takes place two years later in Dallas. At 12.45 pm, with there being absolutely no witnesses to have seen or to have taken a measurement of anyone holding a gun and firing it, the broadcast 5-10 165 description goes out on the radio. Where did that come from? It comes from SS's article explaining this was all part of the legend started by the secret agents two years before. To this day, no one has been able to identify the person who gave the radio guy that description, yet it's broadcast three different times.

As for the quote about me agreeing with Jim DiEugenio and him having an issue about SS, I can't speak for that. I do agree with Jim's write-ups but not everything and he told me that he agrees with what I've said in the past but not everything as well. So who we agree with on this forum or not pretty much cancels everything out because it seems like no one on here agrees with others 100% of the time.

And that, too, is why I think the CT wing of this case is so fractured. Everyone wants to be *the one* who breaks the case if anything is ever revealed someday and they all want to go off on their own tangents with their beliefs. It's probably why there's so much sniggering and eye-rolling in the mainstream press about the CT wing and it's also why there's so much buggering between the different posters here. 

Edited October 1, 2017 by Michael Walton

[Jim Hargrove]

13 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Joe,

That photo of Oswald, to the right of Webster's photo, appears to be a composite of LEE's and HARVEY's photos, Harvey's half-face being on the right. I gave a little presentation of that in this post:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/23677-a-couple-of-real-gems-from-the-harvey-and-lee-website/?do=findComment&comment=359980

That might explain the chin length difference that you describe. And yes, I do see it myself.

If you want to see hard evidence that there were two Oswald's (not mere photos or sightings) I suggest you study Oswald's school records for his fall semester of 8th grade. He attended both Public School 44 in NYC and Beauregard Junior High in New Orleans simultaneously that semester. Of course, it was really the two Oswalds attending the two schools.

 

A number of researchers, including John Armstrong and the late Jack White, felt that the “Minsk ID photo” used on LHO’s counterfeit DoD ID card was a composite image of two different people, LEE Oswald and HARVEY Oswald. (See the photo of Oswald to the right of Webster’s photo in my post above.)  I’ve never been very good with faces and for many years was quietly skeptical of the claim that it was a composite of two different faces… until Sandy Larsen did the breakthrough little study he points to above.  The minute I saw that, I was convinced it was a composite image.

Anyone who finds that claim hard to believe should take a look at Sandy’s work.

[Jim Hargrove]

19 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

But, it's hard to totally dismiss the two Oswald theory out of hand. There are enough Albert Guy Bogard type Oswald sighting and even interacting stories that seem to have legs that are intriguing.

The incident at the Downtown Lincoln Mercury dealership witnessed by Bogard, Eugene Wilson, Frank Pizzo, Oran Brown and probably others is one of the better-known examples of how HARVEY Oswald was set up to be the assassination patsy by someone else.  Briefly, the story goes that “Lee Harvey Oswald” arrived at the dealership in early November and test drove a Mercury Comet at speeds “up to 75 to 85 miles and hour” on wet pavement on the Stemmons Freeway.  This Oswald claimed he could return in a couple of weeks with enough cash (about $3500) to buy the car.

Bogard told the WC that he thought Oswald drove the car on November 9, but Eugene Wilson, who talked to Oswald about financing the car, did some checking on his personal activities that day and determined that the actual date was November 2.  Besides being a good example of the setup of “Lee Harvey Oswald,” this story is fascinating in another respect.

Over the years, I have test driven many cars from auto dealerships, and I cannot recall a time when I did not have to show a valid drivers license before being allowed to take the car out on the road.  But according to the Official Story, “Lee Harvey Oswald” did not have a drivers license.  Ruth Paine indicated she drove LHO to the drivers license facility to get a learner’s permit on Nov. 9, and she said he wasn’t out of her sight all day.

Was the Oswald at the Downtown Lincoln Mercury dealership allowed to drive a car without a valid license or even a learners permit? I sincerely doubt it, don’t you?

But we know of one LHO who DID have a valid Texas drivers license, and that was American-born LEE Harvey Oswald.  See:

The Man Who Could—And Couldn’t—Drive

 

[Jim Hargrove]

On 9/13/2017 at 9:03 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

What David thinks (that the DOD ID card originally had a photo of LEE on it) also makes sense because someone decided later that the LEE photo would not do, and so that person removed the LEE photo and put in its place the Minsk photo, which looks like HARVEY. (That that photo might be a composite is another issue. For this issue, the important thing is that the photo looks much more like HARVEY, and not much like LEE.)

This is all well and good. But it does make one wonder why HARVEY went to Russia on a passport bearing LEE's photo.

Sandy posed this excellent question several weeks ago, right after he posted his amazing graphics mirroring the right and left sides of LHO’s counterfeit DoD ID photo, which appears to be a composite of the two Oswalds’ faces.  

Assuming it is true that, as Sandy wrote, “HARVEY went to Russia on a passport bearing LEE’s photo,” my bet is that it the subterfuge was concocted for domestic (US) consumption.  The assumption was probably that the appearances of Harvey and Lee were similar enough that a small mug shot of LEE would pass the inspection of hurried international customs agents looking at HARVEY standing directly in front of them, but it might not fool a much closer inspection by U.S. State Department and Intelligence agents not in on the spy game who suddenly might begin taking a harder look at “Lee Harvey Oswald” after he “defected” to Russia.

A similar problem was faced by U.S. Intel when Oswald Project managers had to figure out how to provide a picture of “Lee Harvey Oswald” to newspaper and and other news media reporters.    After all, there might well be people in the Dallas/Fort Worth areas, for example, who knew LEE well enough to question whether a picture of HARVEY was really him.  So here is the mug shot published in the Fort Worth Star Telegram announcing the defection of “Lee Harvey Oswald.”

 

Problem solved!  Can you imagine anyone seeing anything wrong with such a washed-out photo?

For more on this, see…. 

Evolution of the "Defection" Photo

[W. Tracy Parnell]

On ‎9‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 12:45 PM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Tracy has made the suggestion several times that Jim and his fellow cult members should assemble their evidence and present it to someone with connections, such as a prominent newspaper or TV journalist, who might be able to give it some publicity.

Jeremy's idea has been made onto a major motion picture!

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1582-harvey-and-lee-cult-the-interview

[Tom Hume]

Opinion: The merging of identities of two individuals, let’s call them Harvey and Lee for now, was a first class operation. For roughly six years up until 1963, the hands-on guy doing the merging was named Richard Case Nagell, and he ran these two guys. While following orders, Richard and Lee (AKA Igor) also created tell-tale booby traps in all of these doppelganger activities so they could potentially double-cross their (profoundly evil) superiors, and potentially show us what they’d done. 

Richard Nagell used “stereo” and “3-D” as metaphors for the two Oswalds, and while many, if not most, of the Oswald photos are composites of H&L, four sets of photos are in stereo 3-D. Two of these sets of images may be lost to us, but two sets can be seen on the last post of the link below. I’ll be making my arguments on a new thread when I’m damn good and ready, but not here on this thread. 

“Stereo Realist” anagrams to:

“LEE’S ROSETTA. R/I”

("R/I" = "Richard/Igor")

Tom

Edited October 1, 2017 by Tom Hume

[Michael Walton]

Well done and thanks for sharing the link Tracy to the funny video made by Jeremy and Stan Dane.

There's a comment on that page that seems sadly true and is a very good question:

"Very well done Stan.I too have wondered from time to time whether the Harvey & Lee theory is a disinformation plot to deliberately divide the community and make researchers look like nutcases."

It's a very good question that this person has asked.  I, too, wonder about this because it's just amazing how many wildly out-there theories people have come up with regarding the Kennedy case.

A case in point - the one directly above this post.  Tom Hume once again, with absolutely no foresight or plausibility to his scheme, is posting yet another anagram of letters that he "sees" as some secret code that will reveal it all about what happened in Dallas.

[Tom Hume]

Give it a rest, Michael. How about I let you do your research, and you let me do mine?

I've decided to post the 3-D photos here so you can see them now without having to jump around. 

As I wrote in the post above, I’ll be posting my supporting puzzle material that led me to the 3-D stereo photographs in a new thread.

The first set of photos below are CE133A on the left, and 133C on the right, and they are in SUPER 3-D. I simply sized the two photos in accordance with puzzle instructions, and rotated them 88 degrees as per the instructions. One can see deeply down the side of the house. The stairs are practically in one’s face. And Oswald’s 3-D head is thrust toward the viewer. 

 

We are apparently seeing the body of Wesley Frazier with Lee Oswald’s head attached, and the chin is that of JFK. I’ll make this argument elsewhere. 

Lee Oswald owned a Stereo Realist, and many of those cameras had a double exposure function, and those that did not could be retrofitted. Even if Oswald’s Realist had no double exposure function, it would have been easy to accomplish other ways. The camera would have been mounted on a tripod, and tilted 88 degrees.

These photos are meant to be viewed with a Stereoscope. 

 

Note: For viewing with a Stereoscope, the two sets of images need to be about three inches apart. This means that, say, Oswald’s eyes on one photo should be close to 3 inches from Oswald’s eyes on the other photo. I don’t know how they will show up on your monitor, but do what ever you need to do to comply with the 3 inch requirement. 

Without a card in the card holder on the Stereoscope, one might be able to view the stereo images directly on one’s monitor - I can. By bringing the stick that carries the card holder close to the monitor, some of you may be able to get a good focus. If not, you’ll either have to cut off the stick, or print out a 7 inch wide copy of the photo pair and put it in your card holder. Once you start asking around, you’ll probably find that many of your friends and relatives have a nice vintage Stereoscope in their closet. The cardboard ones you can buy on line for $3.95 are junk. 

The 3-D from the SSS card and the 1173 card is tame in comparison to the BYPs, and is most noticeable in the chin area. I'll say that again, it's the chin area that the 3-D creator (probably by Nagell) apparently concentrated on, the head area seems less robust. And the top set of two photos are there merely for comparison - they are not 3-D. With a Stereoscope, look from the bottom set to the top set and notice the somewhat subtle yet obvious difference. 3-D on the bottom set, no 3-D on the top set. Keep comparing the two sets and you should get it. The 3-D is on the subtle side, but it is definitely present in the lower set of two photos.

 

It’s my current belief that we are seeing a composite photo with “Lee’s” (Igor’s) face, “Harvey’s” ears, and “JFK’s” 3-D chin. As before, I’ll make this argument elsewhere. 

Beg, borrow, or steal, a Stereoscope, and I think you’ll be both surprised and puzzled.

Edit added:

The set of 3-D Backyard Photos below are similar to the pair at the top of the post, except that I have removed the 12 degrees of keystone.

“3D” can translate to “33” using the translation device at the bottom, and puzzle #33 in Oswald’s Historic Diary is:

“THEY MAKE NOTES”

This anagrams to:

“THE KEYSTONE: 12”

And “THEY MAKE NOTES” also anagrams to:

“KEYSTONE THEM ‘0’” (so I did)

(The complete list of 88 Historic Diary puzzles can be found in my June 25, 2014 post at the link below)

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/20276-the-oswald-code/

In spite of the keystone being removed, the vivid 3-D is about the same as the set at the top of the post. Below is the standard and ubiquitous set of BYPs. Notice that CE133A on the left, and 133C on the right display the keystone effect, while CE133B in the center has no keystone. 

A=0)(B=1)(C=2)(D=3)(E=4)(F=5)(G=6)(H=7)(I=8)(J=9)(K=10)(L=11)(M=12)(N=13)(O=14)(P=15)(Q=16)(R=17)(S=18)(T=19)(U=20)(V=21)(W=22)(X=23)(Y=24)(Z=25) 

Tom

 

Edited October 12, 2017 by Tom Hume

[W. Tracy Parnell]

4 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

It's a very good question that this person has asked.  I, too, wonder about this because it's just amazing how many wildly out-there theories people have come up with regarding the Kennedy case.

I have wondered as well because it is difficult to believe Jim or David or any of the H&L followers really believe there were two Oswalds. In the case of Armstrong, I feel it was a "vehicle" for his research, in other words, you have to have a new theory in order to publish a book.