David Andrews Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 If "spy in his own mind" is another way of saying "desperate loner, wannabe-political hero," this is belied by Oswald's connections and contacts, which are remarkable for a 24-year-old with no money or influence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said: The second time it is used in a paragraph suggesting Oswald exaggerated his own height on Marine Corps records and includes this: It doesn’t prove that Oswald was a government spy. It indicates that Oswald was a spy in his own mind, and would exaggerate his own description. Is it just me or does that sound like an H&L slam? (Even though the H&L book makes no such claim.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 18 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said: I've already accepted that there were two Oswald's, so I'm not surprised that an Oswald drivers license existed. That's the reason I'm more interested in why the license would have been given to the DPS. If I had to guess, I’d say whoever returned the license, perhaps with some indication that the issuer was deceased or had moved out of state or something, hoped that it might cause the Texas DPS to close the file and throw it away, but it apparently didn’t work, as this HSCA doc shows…. HSCA investigator Gary Sanders tried to talk to TDPS but ultimately concluded in his report: “It is very obvious to me that if there are any records at the DPS pertaining to LEE HARVEY OSWALD they are not going to release them.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 6 hours ago, Karl Hilliard said: You do not fill out your own medical forms [height weight etc] in the military service. Of course. It would be almost as bad if my own doctor asked me to estimate my height, weight, and blood pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 5 hours ago, David Andrews said: If "spy in his own mind" is another way of saying "desperate loner, wannabe-political hero," this is belied by Oswald's connections and contacts, which are remarkable for a 24-year-old with no money or influence. Indeed! Even the official cover story of the radar operator observing American U-2 planes defecting to Russia, saying he would give away all his secrets, and returning home without penalty smells like a spy story. The CIA, we’re told, cared so little about Harvey’s Excellent Adventures in Moscow and Minsk that they didn’t even bother to debrief him. Even though the CIA’s U-2C spy plane was shot down over Russia while Oswald was there, there were STILL no questions from American Intel and, just a year or two later, in 1963, the State Department approved his travel to Communist countries AGAIN!!! Does anyone interested in the truth really believe that story? It’s like the Emperor’s New Clothes. The clever thing about the actual event is that Harvey Oswald, the Russian-speaking kid who “defected” to Russia and was shot dead by Jack Ruby, was never in the radar bubble at Atsugi. That was American-born Lee. Even if Harvey had been tortured by the Russkies, or bewitched into spilling the beans by a beautiful Russian woman, he had no U-2 secrets to give away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 (edited) On 9/28/2017 at 12:02 PM, Jim Hargrove said: Indeed! Even the official cover story of the radar operator observing American U-2 planes defecting to Russia, saying he would give away all his secrets, and returning home without penalty smells like a spy story. Except Lee Oswald's "Preference" and "Recommended" Duty assignment was as an Aircraft Maintenance and Repairman... not an air traffic controller which was a completely different class and course of education... Also in the "Duties performed" box... none of that indicates the aptitude or intelligence needed to be a radar operator... Also, one of the key qualification of a 6741: Avn Electronics Operator is perfect hearing.... Lee, having the mastoid operation and poor hearing in the left ear would never be considered for that job... this brings to bear the Alan Felde timeline and its conflict with the Marines timeline given to the WC.... Edited June 18, 2018 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 But it was LEE who attended radar school in Biloxi for long hours in 1957. John wrote that the course “included 180 hours of instruction on radar familiarization, radar indicators, air surveillance operations, direction center operations, and electronic countermeasures.” The soldiers at MACS 1 near Atsugi remembered that Oswald sometimes got passed-out drunk and that he wasn’t interested in politics. That’s clearly LEE, not HARVEY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 14 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said: If I had to guess, I’d say whoever returned the license, perhaps with some indication that the issuer was deceased or had moved out of state or something, hoped that it might cause the Texas DPS to close the file and throw it away, but it apparently didn’t work, as this HSCA doc shows…. HSCA investigator Gary Sanders tried to talk to TDPS but ultimately concluded in his report: “It is very obvious to me that if there are any records at the DPS pertaining to LEE HARVEY OSWALD they are not going to release them.” Well, with the death of Harvey and the publicity over the incident, the Oswald Project jig was effectively up. There was no reason for Lee to have a Lee Harvey Oswald drivers license any further. And indeed having it was a liability, particularly having one issued in Texas. So it's no surprise that the license was given up. The real question is why it ended up in the hands of DPS. It seems that the CIA would have wanted the license destroyed. But that something happened that resulted in the license being confiscated by the local authorities. I wonder if Lee Oswald was wasted shortly after the assassination, his license taken and sent to the DPS, and the whole affair covered up. I know this sounds rather drastic, but if Lee was okay it seems to me that the license would not have found its way back to the DPS. Or, less drastic... maybe Lee Oswald was arrested and later released, but his drivers license not given back to him for whatever reason. The license was later returned to the DPS as a matter standard of operating procedure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 15 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said: Indeed! Even the official cover story of the radar operator observing American U-2 planes defecting to Russia, saying he would give away all his secrets, and returning home without penalty smells like a spy story. The CIA, we’re told, cared so little about Harvey’s Excellent Adventures in Moscow and Minsk that they didn’t even bother to debrief him. Even though the CIA’s U-2C spy plane was shot down over Russia while Oswald was there, there were STILL no questions from American Intel and, just a year or two later, in 1963, the State Department approved his travel to Communist countries AGAIN!!! Jim, What you write here alone seems to qualify to be on your list of evidence that Oswald was CIA. Especially if it's true that the CIA took notice of Oswald as a result of the U2 being shot down. (While it is true that the CIA knew that Oswald didn't give away U2 secrets, that was only the casefor those CIA officers and agents who had clearance for the Oswald Project, and more specifically the fake defection. It's probable that other CIA officials took Oswald's defection seriously, and would be concerned about his giving up secret information.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Laverick Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said: Jim, What you write here alone seems to qualify to be on your list of evidence that Oswald was CIA. Especially if it's true that the CIA took notice of Oswald as a result of the U2 being shot down. (While it is true that the CIA knew that Oswald didn't give away U2 secrets, that was only the casefor those CIA officers and agents who had clearance for the Oswald Project, and more specifically the fake defection. It's probable that other CIA officials took Oswald's defection seriously, and would be concerned about his giving up secret information.) Why are you referring to "Oswald" in the singular? Which Oswald was CIA? I thought they were 'both' the product of a CIA plot to facilitate a defection by switching "Hungarian born Harvey" (and therefore obviously fluent in Russian!) with southern boy Lee, who spoke no Russian. I thought that was the whole point!! So which Oswald are you referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 52 minutes ago, Bernie Laverick said: 8 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said: Jim, What you write here alone seems to qualify to be on your list of evidence that Oswald was CIA. Especially if it's true that the CIA took notice of Oswald as a result of the U2 being shot down. (While it is true that the CIA knew that Oswald didn't give away U2 secrets, that was only the casefor those CIA officers and agents who had clearance for the Oswald Project, and more specifically the fake defection. It's probable that other CIA officials took Oswald's defection seriously, and would be concerned about his giving up secret information.) Why are you referring to "Oswald" in the singular? Because I was replying to what Jim posted, and he was talking only about one Oswald. Harvey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 12 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said: Jim, What you write here alone seems to qualify to be on your list of evidence that Oswald was CIA. Especially if it's true that the CIA took notice of Oswald as a result of the U2 being shot down. (While it is true that the CIA knew that Oswald didn't give away U2 secrets, that was only the casefor those CIA officers and agents who had clearance for the Oswald Project, and more specifically the fake defection. It's probable that other CIA officials took Oswald's defection seriously, and would be concerned about his giving up secret information.) I may not have written my original note clearly enough, Sandy. I didn’t mean to say that the CIA officially took notice of anything about “Oswald.” I meant to emphasize the stupidity of the Official Cover Story that a U.S. Marine serving in a radar installation involved with U-2 aircraft, who soon “defected” to the USSR and on arrival in Moscow told American embassy personnel that he planned to divulge everything he knew to the Soviets, that this guy did NOT seem to interest the CIA even when Powers’ U-2 was shot down while he was still in Russia. The story we’ve been told for half a century is that the CIA wasn’t even interested enough in Oswald to talk to him… ever! CIA claims to this day it never communicated with Lee Harvey Oswald. It is a profoundly stupid story, but everyone from the New York Times to the National Inquirer to WC apologists right on this forum are all too happy to defend it with a straight face. Crap like that has put us our nation right smack dab into the middle of the political mess we’re in today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said: Because I was replying to what Jim posted, and he was talking only about one Oswald. Harvey. Thanks, Sandy. That's EXACTLY who I was talking about... HARVEY.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Laverick Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said: Thanks, Sandy. That's EXACTLY who I was talking about... HARVEY.... In future could you please clarify who you are all talking about? It gets a little confusing when you talk of two Oswalds and then refer to them as HIM. Freudian slip... Just noticed that the signature links you have also refer to ONE Lee Harvey Oswald "Oswald received "a full-time salary for agent work for doing CIA operational work" “Lee Harvey Oswald was a contract employee of the CIA and the FBI.” But which LHO are we talking about here? The links refer to the one and only LHO, but you say they were two people, yet still refer to him as an individual. Come on Jim, it's getting sloppy now. Edited September 30, 2017 by Bernie Laverick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 Sheesh! I frequently refer to "Oswald" in the singular. You've been whining about me off and on for years, and you've just noticed that now? Terrific research! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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