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Does Lifton's Best Evidence indicate that the coverup and the crime were committed by the same people?


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2 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Let's try to incorporate Mr. Graves' theory into my question. Tommy - if the KGB was behind the assassination, and actively set Oswald up as the patsy, If that is what you believe to be true, it seems quite a stretch to conclude that the autopsy shenanigans were part of that scheme beforehand. That goes to the essence of what my post was asking. There would have had to been other shooters arranged by the Soviets, Soviet moles inside the Secret Service, the DPD, and the TSBD. 

The KGB didn't didn't turn LBJ's hand, before or after the fact. The KGB didn't force a DPD stand-down, or Secret Service stand-down for that matter. The KGB didn't set-up the parade route, put Oswald in the TSBD or que-up the Mafia to do their parts.

and the list goes on.....

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2 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

The KGB didn't didn't turn LBJ's hand, before or after the fact. The KGB didn't force a DPD stand-down, or Secret Service stand-down for that matter. The KGB didn't set-up the parade route, put Oswald in the TSBD or que-up the Mafia to do their parts.

and the list goes on.....

Dear Michael,

Your grasp of the obvious is truly amazing.

Question:  Do you think the CIA somehow forced Duran and Azcue to collectively describe the Oswald or "Oswald," who may-or-may-not have visited the Cuban Consulate on 9/27/63, in such a way as to perfectly describe KGB officer Nikolai Leonov?

--  Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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20 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Let's try to incorporate Mr. Graves' theory into my question. Tommy - if the KGB was behind the assassination, and actively set Oswald up as the patsy, If that is what you believe to be true, it seems quite a stretch to conclude that the autopsy shenanigans were part of that scheme beforehand. That goes to the essence of what my post was asking. There would have had to been other shooters arranged by the Soviets, Soviet moles inside the Secret Service, the DPD, and the TSBD. 

Paul B.,

This is an excellent point.   Well stated.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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8 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Michael,

Your grasp of the obvious is truly amazing.

Question:  Do you think the CIA somehow forced Duran and Azcue to collectively describe the Oswald or "Oswald," who may-or-may-not have visited the Cuban Consulate on 9/27/63, in such a way as to perfectly describe KGB officer Nikolai Leonov?

--  Tommy :sun

Tommy - that makes somewhat more sense than it really being leonov.

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On 5/4/2017 at 7:39 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Fwiw,

I, for one, will probably forever wonder if the photos referenced by Winn Scott when he wrote on 11/23/63 to J.C. King, "a certain person known to you" weren't of KGB officer Nikolai Leonov instead of the traditional, husky, "Mexico City Mystery Man" (who may or may not have been KGB agent Yuri Moskalev or "Saul" or .......... )

--  Tommy :sun

bumped

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Tommy - let's say the photo in question is Leonov. What then? Leonov impersonated Oswald inside the Cuban consulate? Doubt it, for many reasons. Given that you are honestly searching for answers, and have done lots of reading, and posting, on the leads to the KGB, such as this one, please try to make some sense out of this. You know all the reasons why it's unlikely that the Soviets were running Oswald, or more importantly would assassinate the president even if Oswald was their asset. No one on either side of the spy war would choose Oswald as the assassin. Please tell me you know that makes sense. Either side might think he would make a good patsy, in which case the preponderance of evidence is that he was connected to US Intel. If he was impersonated by a high ranking KGB officer, why? What do you think? If the Soviets assassinated JFK how did they do it? What evidence is there that the Soviets had assassins at Dealey Plaza? 

I would suggest that you look for answers as to why Nosenko was sent to the US, other than to mislead about Oswald. I'm not saying I agree with you about Nosenko, or Leonov impersonating Oswald inside the consulate. I'm saying that since you seem quite convinced on those two points, and are posting on a web site devoted to discussion about JFK, that you courteously supply your reasoning such as it is at this time. From my point of view it seems obvious that Nosenko's value to the Soviets as a false defector would have nothing to do with Oswald. So either he told the truth as far as he knew it, or he lied for some other purpose. 

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On 5/14/2017 at 3:15 PM, Paul Brancato said:

Tommy - let's say the photo in question is Leonov. What then? Leonov impersonated Oswald inside the Cuban consulate? Doubt it, for many reasons. Given that you are honestly searching for answers, and have done lots of reading, and posting, on the leads to the KGB, such as this one, please try to make some sense out of this. You know all the reasons why it's unlikely that the Soviets were running Oswald, or more importantly would assassinate the president even if Oswald was their asset. No one on either side of the spy war would choose Oswald as the assassin. Please tell me you know that makes sense. Either side might think he would make a good patsy, in which case the preponderance of evidence is that he was connected to US Intel. If he was impersonated by a high ranking KGB officer, why? What do you think? If the Soviets assassinated JFK how did they do it? What evidence is there that the Soviets had assassins at Dealey Plaza? 

I would suggest that you look for answers as to why Nosenko was sent to the US, other than to mislead about Oswald. I'm not saying I agree with you about Nosenko, or Leonov impersonating Oswald inside the consulate. I'm saying that since you seem quite convinced on those two points, and are posting on a web site devoted to discussion about JFK, that you courteously supply your reasoning such as it is at this time. From my point of view it seems obvious that Nosenko's value to the Soviets as a false defector would have nothing to do with Oswald. So either he told the truth as far as he knew it, or he lied for some other purpose. 

Dear Paul,

I read only your first sentence and I automatically thought of the perfect response --  "You're the cop.  You figure it out." 

Have you started reading your Kindle edition of Tennent H. Bagley's Spy Wars yet, Paul?

Let me know if you need any help understanding it.  LOL

( Still unable to use Google Search ?  Tsk, Tsk ... )

--  Tommy :sun

 

Edited by Thomas Graves
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On 5/9/2017 at 1:14 AM, Thomas Graves said:

Question:  Do you think the CIA somehow forced Duran and Azcue to collectively describe the Oswald or "Oswald," who may-or-may-not have visited the Cuban Consulate on 9/27/63, in such a way as to perfectly describe KGB officer Nikolai Leonov?

 

For the record, I think that Duran and Azcue are both describing a person that greatly resembles Nikolai Leonov.

It's also my assumption that Azcue, in his top role at the Cuban Embassy certainly would know Leonov and probably also knew he was KGB.  There is no reason to believe that Cuban and Russian diplomats would not socialize together in Mexico City.

Duran, as a Mexican National and contract secretarial employee of Cuban Embassy, could have recognized Leonov as a Russian Embassy employee but would have no reason to have any knowledge his KGB role.

Also, for the record, the above in the context of an Oswald "impersonator" visit to the Cuban Embassy makes no sense to me and I don't have any explanation.

It's a true conundrum.

 

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On 5/14/2017 at 4:02 PM, Chris Newton said:

 

For the record, I think that Duran and Azcue are both describing a person that greatly resembles Nikolai Leonov.

It's also my assumption that Azcue, in his top role at the Cuban Embassy certainly would know Leonov and probably also knew he was KGB.  There is no reason to believe that Cuban and Russian diplomats would not socialize together in Mexico City.

Duran, as a Mexican National and contract secretarial employee of Cuban Embassy, could have recognized Leonov as a Russian Embassy employee but would have no reason to have any knowledge his KGB role.

Also, for the record, the above in the context of an Oswald "impersonator" visit to the Cuban Embassy makes no sense to me and I don't have any explanation.

It's a true conundrum.

 

Chris,

In a PM to me last night, Bill Simpich said rather cryptically that Leonov was the KGB's David Atlee Phillips, that Leonov was the victim of (evil, evil) CIA "dirty tricks", and that he had been a (3-time) target of TARBRUSH.  Edit:  Is Simpich implying that Duran's and Azcue's collectively describing the guy who was-or-was-not there the way they did (i.e., like Leonov) was somehow related to the (evil, evil) CIA's TARBRUSH project?  Or am I only inferring that that's kinda what Bill Simpich is geting at?

MFF has some stuff on Leonov and TARBRUSH.

--  Tommy :sun

 

Edit:  Here's the follow-up, explanatory PM Bill sent me.  I hope he won't mind my (possessive pronoun) making (gerund) it "public".

"If you go to MFF you will see he was the target in several TARBRUSH actions designed to make [Leonov]  look bad.  I think he helped direct covert actions like Phillips that is why he was targeted.  I believe he saw someone upset - not sure it was Oswald.  Few people care about Leonov in the 10/1 [sic; 10/02, actually] photo because it doesn't solve the case - you and I find it fascinating to actually resolve another puzzle piece and be able to move on."

Edited by Thomas Graves
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7 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Bill Simpich said rather cryptically that Leonov was the KGB's David Atlee Phillips

I would assume that Phillips and Leonov, as respective opposites would be very familiar with each other.

What purpose does it serve for a Russian Diplomat to impersonate Lee Harvey Oswald in the Cuban Embassy? Why would he do that? I think if Leonov was inside the Cuban Embassy at the same time as an Oswald impersonator, he'd be there as his KGB tail. How does he get away with an impersonation?

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1 minute ago, Chris Newton said:

I would assume that Phillips and Leonov, as respective opposites would be very familiar with each other.

What purpose does it serve for a Russian Diplomat to impersonate Lee Harvey Oswald in the Cuban Embassy? Why would he do that? I think if Leonov was inside the Cuban Embassy at the same time as an Oswald impersonator, he'd be there as his KGB tail. How does he get away with an impersonation?

Chris,

That's what's so intriguing about Duran's and Azcue's collectively describing the guy who was-or-was-not there on 9/27 in such a way that so closely described Leonov.

Why?  Why? Why?

Maybe he wasn't there and their description was a kind of message or warning to one of the Intel agencies involved?

Just thinking out loud here ...

--  Tommy :sun

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Just now, Chris Newton said:

Maybe the impersonator closely resembled Leonov and Leonov was his KGB tail? <Head Explodes>

Simpich said Leonov may have seen an upset person or someone upset, but didn't say where.

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4 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Simpich said Leonov may have seen an upset person or someone upset, but didn't say where.

Well, we know Oswald is supposed to have displayed his sidearm to the Russians in the Embassy and Leonov has been reported to have been a witness to that.

Does he put Leonov in the Cuban Embassy?

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15 minutes ago, Chris Newton said:

Well, we know Oswald is supposed to have displayed his sidearm to the Russians in the Embassy and Leonov has been reported to have been a witness to that.

Does he put Leonov in the Cuban Embassy?

Chris,

IDK.

I asked Bill some follow-up questions late last nigh (early this AM, actually) and he hasn't replied yet.

Let's bear in mind, though, that Nechiporenko didn't mention Leonov as one of the colleagues who met with Oswald on Saturday, September 28.  Nechi said Yatskov and Kostikov were the only others there with him.

And Leonov in his Russian-language book and in that National Enquirer "interview" (?) said that he met with Oswald on Sunday, September 29.

Stupid question, but did those Ruskies at the Sov Emb play volleyball on Saturdays and Sundays?

IIRC, Tennent H. Bagley points out that the KGB was never able to provide documentary proof to CIA "after the Cold War had ended"  (LOL- that's a good one) that Nechi and the boys really had sent a cable about Oswald to Moscow Center on Saturday, 9/28. ...

--  Tommy :sun

Edit:  Here's an interesting-looking MFF page I just now stumbled upon while innocently checking the correct spelling of Yatskov's name.

https://www.maryferrell.org/php/cryptdb.php?id=LIOVAL-1

Edited by Thomas Graves
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