Paul Trejo Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said: ...Marita said the trip happened "a week or so" before the assassination, so... Jim, Marita evidently contradicted herself. Here's what she said in her 1978 Testimony against Howard Hunt (p. 60): Q: Did you ever meet Harvey Oswald? A: Yes. Q: When did you first meet him? A: In the safe house. Q: Where? A: In Miami. Q: What year? A: I know it was after the extradition of the general, and that was August, 1963. Q: Sometime between August and November of 1963? A: Yes... So, that's a much wider range than "a week or so" before the JFK assassination. In fact, it even includes October 2nd through 7th, 1963 -- the times when Lee Harvey Oswald would have exited Mexico City as a passenger in a car, and had about a week before he would return to Dallas. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited August 9, 2017 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bauer Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 (edited) Officer Rothstein "congratulates Sturgis on the assassination of J.F.K." ??? Was this congratulations from Rothstein to Sturgis stated sarcastically? One has to ask because it is also stated in this story that as soon as Sturgis finds out Rothstein was there in the combat zone of the Bay Of Pigs as Sturgis was, and Rothstein mentions this fact along with the negative addition of JFK refusing air cover there, they then shake each other's hands? Like war combat veteran brothers? Please! It sounds like Rothstein was of like mind as Sturgis in regards to their shared hatred of JFK. If true, that's an important personal bias to keep in mind regards that whole story and Rothstein's part in and telling of it. Was Sturgis armed when Rothstein and his partner put their guns on him when Sturgis first arrived in Marita's apartment? Perhaps a gun with a silencer? Or some knock out - heart stopping vial of drug? If not, how did Sturgis plan to get rid of Marita, if this was the feared purpose of his going there according to Marita? Sturgis was captured and jailed at the Bay Of Pigs? If so, is there any hard evidence of how he was treated while in captivity? Was he tortured? You'd think that since Sturgis was such a high profile person in Castro's original revolutionary team and who then turned coats to do Castro in...that he would be subjected to some pretty harsh interrogation and treatment - if not shot! How long was Sturgis held and how in the heck did he ever get released? He sure never looked like he suffered any long term injuries ... like the famously revered ex-pat Cuban who lost his eyesight. Tunheim says he saw no Marita Lorenz files? There goes the credibility of his investigation. And that 22 page confession letter from Sturgis to the Catholic Cardinal - never found either? And when it is speculated that E.Howard Hunt held back or changed things in his end of life confession ( his part in it for instance ) regards the "Big Event" in Dallas on 11,22,1963 to perhaps protect still living fellow compatriots...? I believe that if he did so it wasn't to protect these other characters ... but to protect his surviving family. Can you imagine being one of E. Howard Hunt's children after it was discovered that their father had a direct connection to J.F.K.'s murder in Dallas on 11,22,1963? The stigma of that would haunt and damage them the rest of their lives. Oswald's two daughter's went through some of this in their early years...but with time and the huge majority held believe that Oswald didn't act alone or not at all...there seems to be a lot of sympathy for them instead. When Colonel Dan Marvin gave his interview in the documentary "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" he broke down when talking about his legacy of killing and how he hoped ( and prayed ) that this reality of his life didn't harm his grandchildren and hopefully they would grow up seeing him more as a loving Grandpa versus a stone killer. Hunt couldn't tell the whole truth about his involvement in "The Big Event" out of his similar Dan Marvin type concern for his surviving family's stigma effected welfare and peace of mind ...IMO Edited August 9, 2017 by Joe Bauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 34 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said: Jim, Marita evidently contradicted herself. Here's what she said in her 1978 Testimony against Howard Hunt (p. 60): Q: Did you ever meet Harvey Oswald? A: Yes. Q: When did you first meet him? A: In the safe house. Q: Where? A: In Miami. Q: What year? A: I know it was after the extradition of the general, and that was August, 1963. Q: Sometime between August and November of 1963? A: Yes... So, that's a much wider range than "a week or so" before the JFK assassination. In fact, it even includes October 2nd through 7th, 1963 -- the times when Lee Harvey Oswald would have exited Mexico City as a passenger in a car, and had about a week before he would return to Dallas. Regards, --Paul Trejo No, no, no! She said she met Oswald in the fall of 1963 at an Operation 40 safe house in Little Havana in Miami. She met him AGAIN "a week or so before" the Kennedy assassination in 1963 in the house of Orlando Bosch, just before the drive to Dallas. This is not a contradiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Clark Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, Paul Trejo said: David, I don't read that article as saying that Frank Sturgis outranked Howard Hunt inside the CIA, but rather, that Frank Sturgis outranked Howard Hunt inside a CIVILIAN plot. Regards, --Paul Trejo Paul, a CIVILIAN plot involving William Harvey, David Morales, Frank Sturgis and Howard Hunt? Throw in David Phillips and Guy Bannster, whom you have implicated before. Where is this CIVILIAN plot of which you speak? And Hunt is a "flunkie"? Edited August 10, 2017 by Michael Clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 (edited) I repeat...the CIVILIAN plot against JFK included at least two ROGUES from the CIA, namely, David Morales and Howard Hunt. We know this because they confessed. Frank Sturgis confessed, but he was not a CIA Officer. Aside from these two CIA guys, I strongly suspect William Harvey, but nobody has proof, IMHO. James Jesus Angelton has the excuse of the Simpich Mole Hunt. David Atlee Phillips has a good alibi, IMHO. Guy Banister was never in the CIA, though he probably convinced Lee Harvey Oswald that he was. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited August 10, 2017 by Paul Trejo typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Clark Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said: I repeat...the CIVILIAN plot against JFK included at least two ROGUES from the CIA, namely, David Morales and Howard Hunt. We know this because they confessed. Frank Sturgis confessed, but he was not a CIA Officer. Aside from these two CIA guys, I strongly suspect William Harvey, but nobody has proof, IMHO. James Jesus Angelton has the excuse of the Simpich Mole Hunt. David Atlee Phillips has a good alibi, IMHO. Guy Banister was never in the CIA, though he probably convinced Lee Harvey Oswald that he was. Regards, --Paul Trejo Paul, I heard that Armstrong, Aldrin, and Collins had a few beers one evening, and decided to secretly "go rogue" on Aplollo 11. So,..... NASA and the US really didn't land on the moon on the Apollo 11 mission. Don't tell Evan, please. Edited August 10, 2017 by Michael Clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglas Caddy Posted August 9, 2017 Author Share Posted August 9, 2017 On 8/8/2017 at 5:49 PM, Larry Hancock said: As much as I want to stay out of this, for those who have not already made up their minds I need to say that key records on Sturgis have been available for some time. The same can be said for Hemming (who was also cleared as a CIA source for a short period after he came out of Cuba, until he violated some basic security protocols). For those who don't know, Hemming was continually volunteering information to the FBI and the CIA, as were Hargraves and Howard. Generally on other groups or people they were competing with for donations or publicity . I dug into this about a decade ago and got the files on Sturgis which show exactly how he became involved in Cuba, his involvement in buying and smuggling in weapons - much like McKeown. After he came out he appears to have been paid with unofficially with discretionary funds (most likely by Hunt) to do wild things like the leaflet and bombing runs over Havana (they even helped his buddy the former Cuban Air Force chief Diaz Lantz acquire the surplus plane to do that) and how eventually he was brought on as a "source" informing generally on any and all exile Cuban activities. I should also note that the documents show that before coming out he volunteered to put together an assassination of Castro, the offer got to the CIA and they rejected it. Hemming called Sturgis a snitch and eventually he was, his information shows up in JM/WAVE station reports. Again, it appears he was paid for that with discretionary funds, was certainly not an officer and most likely not on any formal payroll (as Cuban exile assets were). Hunt and Barker held the money bag and Barker in particular was doing a good deal of private stuff on the side, some of it apparently illegal and that got him dismissed. I put all this in the Keys to Conspiracy CD which will indeed be available shortly from Lancer, they just burned new copies. Anyone interested can email me and I'll let you know when and how you can order it. "...the key records on Sturgis have been available for some time." ???? How then to explain this? https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2016/sep/21/frank-sturgis-crowdfund/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 4 hours ago, Paul Trejo said: David, I don't read that article as saying that Frank Sturgis outranked Howard Hunt inside the CIA, but rather, that Frank Sturgis outranked Howard Hunt inside a CIVILIAN plot. Regards, --Paul Trejo Wait - were LBJ, Cord Meyer, and William Harvey civilians? My remark was to qualify a possible explanation: Sturgis spoke (if it happened this way) for Morales to give Morales deniability. Who the hell would give the world to Frank Sturgis? Only notoriety saved him from a hole in the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglas Caddy Posted August 9, 2017 Author Share Posted August 9, 2017 https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=frank+sturgis+imprisoned+in+cuba+by+castro&qpvt=frank+sturgis+imprisoned+in+cuba+by+castro&qpvt=frank+sturgis+imprisoned+in+cuba+by+castro&qpvt=frank+sturgis+imprisoned+in+cuba+by+castro&FORM=IGRE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Clark Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Douglas, Larry was referring to his CD of research materials available on lancer. http://jfklancer.com/catalog/hancock/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglas Caddy Posted August 10, 2017 Author Share Posted August 10, 2017 4 hours ago, Joe Bauer said: Officer Rothstein "congratulates Sturgis on the assassination of J.F.K." ??? Was this congratulations from Rothstein to Sturgis stated sarcastically? One has to ask because it is also stated in this story that as soon as Sturgis finds out Rothstein was there in the combat zone of the Bay Of Pigs as Sturgis was, and Rothstein mentions this fact along with the negative addition of JFK refusing air cover there, they then shake each other's hands? Like war combat veteran brothers? Please! It sounds like Rothstein was of like mind as Sturgis in regards to their shared hatred of JFK. If true, that's an important personal bias to keep in mind regards that whole story and Rothstein's part in and telling of it. Was Sturgis armed when Rothstein and his partner put their guns on him when Sturgis first arrived in Marita's apartment? Perhaps a gun with a silencer? Or some knock out - heart stopping vial of drug? If not, how did Sturgis plan to get rid of Marita, if this was the feared purpose of his going there according to Marita? Sturgis was captured and jailed at the Bay Of Pigs? If so, is there any hard evidence of how he was treated while in captivity? Was he tortured? You'd think that since Sturgis was such a high profile person in Castro's original revolutionary team and who then turned coats to do Castro in...that he would be subjected to some pretty harsh interrogation and treatment - if not shot! How long was Sturgis held and how in the heck did he ever get released? He sure never looked like he suffered any long term injuries ... like the famously revered ex-pat Cuban who lost his eyesight. Tunheim says he saw no Marita Lorenz files? There goes the credibility of his investigation. And that 22 page confession letter from Sturgis to the Catholic Cardinal - never found either? And when it is speculated that E.Howard Hunt held back or changed things in his end of life confession ( his part in it for instance ) regards the "Big Event" in Dallas on 11,22,1963 to perhaps protect still living fellow compatriots...? I believe that if he did so it wasn't to protect these other characters ... but to protect his surviving family. Can you imagine being one of E. Howard Hunt's children after it was discovered that their father had a direct connection to J.F.K.'s murder in Dallas on 11,22,1963? The stigma of that would haunt and damage them the rest of their lives. Oswald's two daughter's went through some of this in their early years...but with time and the huge majority held believe that Oswald didn't act alone or not at all...there seems to be a lot of sympathy for them instead. When Colonel Dan Marvin gave his interview in the documentary "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" he broke down when talking about his legacy of killing and how he hoped ( and prayed ) that this reality of his life didn't harm his grandchildren and hopefully they would grow up seeing him more as a loving Grandpa versus a stone killer. Hunt couldn't tell the whole truth about his involvement in "The Big Event" out of his similar Dan Marvin type concern for his surviving family's stigma effected welfare and peace of mind ...IMO Joe: I am sure that you have heard of the good guy/bad guy routine used by police detectives to crack a case and get key information. Rothstein played the good cop when he arrested Sturgis in Marita's NYC apartment and it worked. Sturgis bonded with him immediately, especially after learning that Rothstein had served on the Essex in the Bay of Pigs invasion. Would Sturgis have opened up if Rothstein instead had taken the opposite approach, one of being the adversary? No. Rothstein, as a skilled detective, wanted to find out what Sturgis knew and they talked for two hours before Rothstein and his partner took Sturgis to jail. Rothstein says that the real world is ruled by the Law of Eighth Avenue. Sturgis, like Hunt and Marita, had a mission, which was to protect the United States at all costs, whatever it takes even if this included assassinations. Both Hunt and Sturgis blamed JFK for the Bay of Pigs debacle because he pulled out support for the invasion at the last minute. This led to Sturgis and many others being caught in Cuba as the mission was underway and then imprisoned. The Law of Eighth Avenue is that when one is betrayed, especially as happened here, there will be consequences. That is the real world. Nixon understood this, which is why he used the Bay of Pigs as a code phrase in his Oval Office tapes when in reality he was talking about what happened in the JFK assassination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bauer Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 (edited) Thanks for the response D. Caddy. Oh, was Sturgis armed when first confronted in Marita's apartment? Did Rothstein ask Sturgis if he had planned to harm Marita as she had claimed to Rothstein? Edited August 10, 2017 by Joe Bauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Kinaski Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 (edited) Interesting account of Marita Lorenz' daughter of the Lorenz-Sturgis encounter back in the seventies. http://www.ticotimes.net/2015/10/27/costa-rica-spy-kid-my-mom-was-sent-to-kill-castro-and-my-dad-was-president-of-venezuela KK Edited August 10, 2017 by Karl Kinaski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Clark Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 (edited) ... Edited August 10, 2017 by Michael Clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Clark Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Karl Kinaski said: Interesting account of Marita Lorenz' daughter of the Lorenz-Sturgis encounter back in the seventies. http://www.ticotimes.net/2015/10/27/costa-rica-spy-kid-my-mom-was-sent-to-kill-castro-and-my-dad-was-president-of-venezuela KK " Watergate burgler, frank Sturgis, is booked at E. 102nd St. police station. He was charged with trying to coerce ex-spy, Marita Lorenz, into changing her testimony to congressional committee looking into assassination of President Kennedy. Sturgis was arrested in her Yorkville apartment a few hours after police say her daughter, Monica Mercedes Perez Jimenez, 15, was was picked up with a loaded automatic in her pocket. She said it was to protect her mother from Sturgis." Edited August 10, 2017 by Michael Clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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