WHEN does Oswald crystallize into the patsy?

[Michael Clark]

22 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Michael,

The Furniture Mart incident is OBVIOUSLY a case of "mistaken identity".   Read the WC testimony more CAREFULLY.   You keep jumping to your prejudiced conclusions.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul, regarding prejudiced conclusions. You are the one that said the all incidents of impersonation can be explained as a case of mistaken identity. That, Mr. Trejo, is a prejudiced conclusion, and you think you can use your Hagelian Dialectics to make it so. Dialectics don't exist without a second party to work with the principals. You don't seem to get that.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Paul Trejo]

22 minutes ago, Jason Ward said:

Since we've kind of drifted into the whole Walker-centric CT now, what I'd like to know is your what you asked, Ty, but also: through what conduit Walker reaches into New Orleans.  Banister? Shaw-Bertrand?  Where's the evidence they talked, met, knew each other, schemed, etc?    I mean if Walker is the prime mover in this, he didn't find Oswald, the New Orleans cell recruited Oswald, correct?  So the Walker-New Orleans connection, if it in fact existed, must be fleshed out.  IMO.

Jason

Jason,

Your question is when Oswald was "crystalized" into the JFK plot Patsy.

My proposal is that -- whenever it was -- it MUST have something to do with General Walker.   The most public evidence is Jeff Caufield's CT (2015).

Going by that CT, the connection between Walker and New Orleans is double -- namely -- Guy Banister and Gerry Patrick Hemming.

If we had direct evidence that they "schemed" in the JFK plot, then there would be no more need for any debate -- at all in the past 50 years.

What Jeff Caufield shows is that Walker and Banister had the same politics and the same friends, and that they "likely" met at this or that common rally.

They both had a personal contact in go-between Gerry Patrick Hemming -- we have written correspondence from Hemming to Walker in Walker's personal papers (about Cuba and Interpen).

In my reading -- not Jeff Caufield's -- Walker was the victim of Lee Harvey Oswald's April shooting -- then Walker found out about it from DeM-Voshinin-Hosty on Easter Sunday, 1963 (cf. Dick Russell, TMWKTM).

That was when Walker chose to get revenge on Lee Harvey Oswald.  Walker called Guy Banister for help, IMHO.   Guy Banister called David Ferrie for help, IMHO.  Then David Ferrie convinced LHO to move to New Orleans only two weeks after the Walker shooting.

When did this crystalize into a JFK plot?   Not until everybody could be reasonably sure of success.   JFK could have been killed in Miami (and a different Patsy would be used).  JFK could have been killed in Chicago (and a different Patsy would be used).

All the stars lined up for Dallas, however, and LHO was double-dipped for extra good measure in Mexico City.  That was the crystallization, as I see it.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 18, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Michael Clark]

1 hour ago, Jason Ward said:

Michael, many thanks for the links and so forth.  I already got carried away in largely irrelevant pissing contests this week with Sandy L and Jim D, which I regret.  I'm not real practiced with forum life and let emotions get the best of me once already.  So I'm trying to not pour fuel on the fire anymore.   I of course don't mind challenging Paul about any point, but it's hard enough getting a coherent big picture that I'm not the kind to sweat the details.   I just don't care if LHO was or was not asked to join the CP.   I understand that Paul's theory is that LHO is clever here and maybe playing hard to get; but again it doesn't seem important.  It's like Payne's typewriter....

 

thanks again

 

Jason

Jason, I understand and respect that, yet, as you may find, a pile of details becomes an argument and a comprehensive theory at some point.

Paul Trejo's tid-bits of bunk, likewise, become a pille of bunk. The tid bits of bunk need to be challenged as he drops them around the forum IMO.

 

Edited August 18, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Jason Ward]

4 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Jason,

Just to be clear, I don't think Oswald's trip to Russia had ANYTHING to do with the JFK assassination -- except that it made General Walker hate Oswald's guts the second that Oswald stepped off the airplane back into Dallas, Texas.

General Walker absolutely hated Communists -- and anything associated with Russia.  He was a one-sided fanatic on the issue.  That Oswald had a Russian wife also irked Walker.

Otherwise -- there's no connection whatsoever.   I say this because I'm convinced that there is no CIA plot whatsoever involved with the JFK assassination.   (I'm not as certain about the Russian trip.)

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Well, as I've said several times in this thread, my belief is that near certain evidence LHO was the designated patsy doesn't bubble up until about the time of the TSBD job.   Some suggest  that the Odio encounter and/or the Veciana-Phillips-[Oswald?] meeting or Mexico indicates his patsy status, and I agree that's plausible.   But it seems the absolute earliest Oswald is patsy-material comes only about March-Aprilish at the time of Walker shooting; and/or at the time the conveninetly paper-trailed Carcano transaction occurs. It's completely out of the question that the Russia residency was assassination related.  Living in Minsk was almost certainly something intelligence-related, but not assassination related.  

I don't see it at all likely Oswald is involved in the assassination before 63, and as I say I lean later rather than earlier.   Everything before Walker & the Carcano purchase in Oswald's life is truly something unusual back to and including the Marines.   Mainly I think the evidence shows he was a low level toy in the Cold War intrigues; not that much different than all the Cubans running around like Felix Rodriguez who seem to want intrigue and the spy-identity just for the sake of intrigue and the spy-identity.

 

Jason

[Paul Trejo]

1 minute ago, Jason Ward said:

...I don't see it at all likely Oswald is involved in the assassination before 63, and as I say I lean later rather than earlier.   Everything before Walker & the Carcano purchase in Oswald's life is truly something unusual back to and including the Marines.   Mainly I think the evidence shows he was a low level toy in the Cold War intrigues; not that much different than all the Cubans running around like Felix Rodriguez who seem to want intrigue and the spy-identity just for the sake of intrigue and the spy-identity.

Jason

Yes,  I agree with this.

--Paul

[Jason Ward]

10 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Ja

Going by that CT, the connection between Walker and New Orleans is double -- namely -- Guy Banister and Gerry Patrick Hemming.

     . . .

What Jeff Caufield shows is that they had the same politics and the same friends, and that they "likely" met at this or that common rally.

 

Ok, that's fine, but it is speculation.  So it's a weak spot.   It's kind of like saying if Ruth Paine's family has CIA connections and Michael Paine works for a defense contractor, then Ruth Paine must be CIA.   So what Jeff Caufield shows is that Gen Walker and Banister/Hemming traveled in the same circles - that's pretty thin.  No doubt there's quite a few other interesting characters who were traveling in those circles in 1963...

Jason

[Paul Trejo]

53 minutes ago, Jason Ward said:

Hi Michael,

In my view Oswald was impersonated a number of times.  I particularly highlight the Sportsdome gun range sightings and the car dealers.   So I disagree with Paul about that... 

Jason

Jason,

The Sportsdome gun range sightings were not only cases of "mistaken identity," but the witnesses contradicted each other.  

The car dealership WC witnesses also contradicted each other.   These are clearly "mistaken identity" cases. 

In my CAREFUL reading, all of the so-called Oswald impersonations or doubles were cases of "mistaken identity." 

This includes the Mexico City bus ride, and the Dallas bus ride, and the Dallas taxi cab ride.  None of those witnesses tells a consistent story.

It doesn't take special logic to show that -- only a CAREFUL reading, I say.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Ty Carpenter]

https://grassyknollgirl.wordpress.com/2013/09/27/308/

Food for thought on the TSBD job and the Paines.

[Paul Trejo]

2 minutes ago, Jason Ward said:

Ok, that's fine, but it is speculation.  So it's a weak spot.   It's kind of like saying if Ruth Paine's family has CIA connections and Michael Paine works for a defense contractor, then Ruth Paine must be CIA.   So what Jeff Caufield shows is that Gen Walker and Banister/Hemming traveled in the same circles - that's pretty thin.  No doubt there's quite a few other interesting characters who were traveling in those circles in 1963...

Jason

Jason,K

Yes, OK, but at least consider the evidence.

Walker and Banister ran in the same circles.  For example, they both knew Kent and Phoebe Courtney very well (and we have written evidence).

Also, they both knew Gerry Patrick Hemming very well.

Also, they both knew Loran Hall.

Also, they both knew George Lincoln Rockwell.

Also, they both knew Reverend Billy James Hargis.

All these people were active members of the Radical Right movement in 1963.   There were many others.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

13 minutes ago, Ty Carpenter said:

https://grassyknollgirl.wordpress.com/2013/09/27/308/

Food for thought on the TSBD job and the Paines.

Ty,

Ed Buck was simply confused.   His story comes long after the JFK assassination -- after Lee Harvey Oswald at the TSBD had long been demonized.

Ed Buck rightly identifies Michael Paine as boasting to some college students in April 1963 in a cafeteria that he personally new a man who defected to Russia and came back to the USA with a Russian wife.  That part is true.

But Ed Buck confuses his story by claiming that Michael Paine said that his man was working at the TSBD in April, 1963.

It's simply a confused story from a over-excited witness (which is fairly common).  There's nothing more to it than that, rather obviously, IMHO.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 18, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Jason Ward]

45 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Jason,

The Sportsdome gun range sightings were not only cases of "mistaken identity," but the witnesses contradicted each other.  

The car dealership WC witnesses also contradicted each other.   These are clearly "mistaken identity" cases. 

In my CAREFUL reading, all of the so-called Oswald impersonations or doubles were cases of "mistaken identity." 

This includes the Mexico City bus ride, and the Dallas bus ride, and the Dallas taxi cab ride.  None of those witnesses tells a consistent story.

It doesn't take special logic to show that -- only a CAREFUL reading, I say.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul,

I don't call it mistaken identity when the name Lee Harvey Oswald is given as the name; at the car dealers they even wrote down his name.

As far as the cases where people just say that LHO was with there based on appearances alone, I agree with you, it could be a mistake.

But too many witnesses say he gave a name.

I don't expect honest witnesses to give a 100% consistent story; mainly I look to see if there's any benefit gained for themselves by lying.   If you asked me about a bus trip I took two months ago I'd get details wrong and change the story a bit every time I told it,  but I wouldn't just make up the name Lee Harvey Oswald.   The Mexican border authority has a record of someone presenting LHO's birth certificate in Laredo.   Oswald's name is in a Mexican hotel register and in the Atomic Energy Museum.  Marina's story changes a lot as well, you know.   Odio's changes significantly.  But I think they're both generally honest.   There's a lot of reported Oswalds out there; too many in my view to be mistakes.

In any case, it's not a critical detail.   Impersonators or not it doesn't much matter...

 

Jason

Edited August 18, 2017 by Jason Ward

[Michael Clark]

27 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Ty,

.   His story comes long after the JFK assassination -- 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Yet, Paul would have us believe that a note from General Walker, written 13 years after the assassination, claiming the the Dallas Police arrested LHO 2 days after attempting to murder him (Walker) is solid, primary evidence that this was so.

 

 

 

[Paul Trejo]

30 minutes ago, Jason Ward said:

Paul,

I don't call it's mistaken identity when the name Lee Harvey Oswald is given as the name; at the car dealers they even wrote down his name.

As far as the cases where people just say that LHO was with there based on appearances alone, I agree with you, it could be a mistake.

But too many witnesses say he gave a name.

I don't expect honest witnesses to give a 100% consistent story; mainly I look to see if there's any benefit gained for themselves by lying.   If you asked me about a bus trip I took two months ago I'd get details wrong and change the story a bit every time I told it,  but I wouldn't just make up the name Lee Harvey Oswald.   The Mexican border authority has a record of someone presenting LHO's birth certificate in Laredo.   Marina's story changes a lot as well, you know.   Odio's changes significantly.  But I think they're both generally honest.   

In any case, it's not a critical detail.   Impersonators or not it doesn't much matter...

Jason

Jason,

Do you honestly believe there was nobody else in Dallas named Lee Oswald?   That's all you have?  The name of "Lee Oswald" on the back of a business card?

Because that's all that the WC witness, Albert Guy Bogard had.   Not "Lee Harvey Oswald," just "Lee Oswald."

As for a description, here is what he said:

Mr. BALL. Now, what kind of a looking man was he, or could you describe him?
Mr. BOGARD. I can tell you the truth, I have already forgotten what he actually looked like. I identified him as in pictures, but just to tell you what he looked like that day, I don't remember.
Mr. BALL. You don't have a memory of it?
Mr. BOGARD. No, sir.

Come on, Jason, this is totally weak.   There is even more to show that it was a simple case of "mistaken identity" but this exceeds the theme of your thread.

Just to be clear -- I'm not accusing these "mistaken identity" witnesses of outright lying.   They are simply making honest mistakes, and that is simple and clear from their testimony -- if the reader is objective.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

Edited August 18, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Jason Ward]

9 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Jason,

Do you honestly believe there was nobody else in Dallas named Lee Oswald?   That's all you have?  The name of "Lee Oswald" on the back of a business card?

Because that's all that the WC witness, Albert Guy Bogard had.   Not "Lee Harvey Oswald," just "Lee Oswald."

As for a description, here is what he said:

Mr. BALL. Now, what kind of a looking man was he, or could you describe him?
Mr. BOGARD. I can tell you the truth, I have already forgotten what he actually looked like. I identified him as in pictures, but just to tell you what he looked like that day, I don't remember.
Mr. BALL. You don't have a memory of it?
Mr. BOGARD. No, sir.

Come on, Jason, this is totally weak.   There is even more to show that it was a simple case of "mistaken identity" but this exceeds the theme of your thread.

Just to be clear -- I'm not accusing these "mistaken identity" witnesses of outright lying.   They are simply making honest mistakes, and that is simple and clear from their testimony -- if the reader is objective.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

Ok, Paul.

It's not important either way.  Some can see multiple Oswalds and that makes the conspiracy look more elaborate.   Some can see cases of mistaken identity and see a less elaborate conspiracy.  Some, like Posner, use the suggestion that all witnesses of a second Oswald and may other matters are mistaken; except those which agree with his narrative of course.  One of the problems with this place that might turn off, say, a young college researcher or someone new to the assassination is that everyone here is busy yelling at each other over the make and model of Payne's typewriter or other minutia that just doesn't matter all that much.

http://knoxblogs.com/atomiccity/2013/11/22/lee-harvey-oswald-oak-ridge/

 

Jason

[Michael Clark]

2 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Michael,

Read it more CAREFULLY.  It says:

"...that Lee Harvey Oswald...be granted the right of TEMPORARY sojourn in the Soviet Union for ONE YEAR, and that the QUESTION of his permanent residency in the USSR and his receiving Soviet citizenship be resolved upon the EXPIRATION of that period."

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Because this represents Paul Trejo's blatant dishonesty, I have to address this more precisely.

The three dots, above, that sit between "Oswald" and "be granted" omit the following, from my quotation of the original Russian Document.

... "who has applied for US Citizenship," ...

On 8/17/2017 at 10:43 AM, Paul Trejo said:

9.1. If Lee Harvey Oswald ever wanted Russian citizenship, he had four years inside Russia to apply for it. He never did. That should answer your question fully.

Paul changes his story to (bold is mine):

"2.  After ONE YEAR was over, Lee Harvey Oswald did not pursue any procedure to apply for Russian citizenship.  He just kept living there on his temporary visa.  (By the way -- one could not be a member of the Russian Communist Party without that citizenship.) "

Edited August 18, 2017 by Michael Clark