General Walker, Lee Harvey Oswald and Dallas Officials

[Jason Ward]

48 minutes ago, Roger DeLaria said:

One of the things that I remember while reading Treachery In Dallas, was when mentioning the DPD, he (paraphrasing) said "either DPD or someone in DPD uniforms". Could there have been ground crew/mechanics in DPD uniforms who were not DPD? 

Well both real DPD or faux DPD in DPD uniforms require high level DPD support, right ?

[Roger DeLaria]

I would agree with you Jason, and say yes. Real and/or faux would require facilitation and support from higher level DPD. 

[Michael Clark]

22 minutes ago, Roger DeLaria said:

I would agree with you Jason, and say yes. Real and/or faux would require facilitation and support from higher level DPD. 

And the CIA-employed Mayor of Dallas, Earle Cabell.

 

”At the time of the assassination, Dallas Mayor Earle Cabell, brother of one-time Deputy Director of Central Intelligence Charles P. Cabell, had been a CIA asset since 1956.

It is worth noting that Kennedy dismissed CIA Director Allen Dulles in November 1961, and that Earle Cabell’s brother Charles left the CIA on January 31, 1962,...”

https://whowhatwhy.org/2017/08/02/dallas-mayor-jfk-assassination-cia-asset/

Edited March 31, 2018 by Michael Clark

[Mark Knight]

The police uniform shirt hanging  in the back of Tippit's squad car is likely a clue.

[Jason Ward]

1 hour ago, Roger DeLaria said:

I would agree with you Jason, and say yes. Real and/or faux would require facilitation and support from higher level DPD. 

I complain about CTers around here relying on non-evidence to make their points, such as quoting secondary sources (conspiracy books) or offering hearsay from unnamed or undocumented sources - so I'm going to do that myself.   Correction.  I'm not going to do that.  I'm going to offer weak inadmissible hearsay evidence only as a possible clue to consider and insist it proves nothing whatsoever.  The best it can do is point in the right direction.  What do you think of this snippet from Walt Brown's book?

 

Quote

As Mike Robinson reconstructs the statements, the order was: (angrily) "You knew you were supposed to kill Lee", followed by icy silence, then the same voice in the same nasty tone, "then, you stupid son of a bitch, you go kill a cop..." At this point, another individual entered the room, and the first three fell silent. The newcomer, who Mike could identify as wearing blue, "did his business, flushed the urinal, and left." The original three then concluded, "Lee will have to be killed before they take him to Washington.'

---Walt Brown, Treachery in Dallas (1995), p. 189.

Mike Robinson is presented by Brown as a 14 year old boy inadvertently hearing a candid conversation in the DPD men's room on 22 November 1963.   As a police officer's son, he says he was downtown to watch the parade that day and naturally sought out his dad's office after the assassination....

 

Jason

Edited April 1, 2018 by Jason Ward

[Jason Ward]

 

 

43 minutes ago, Jason Ward said:

 As a police officer's son,

 

Is the DPD officer with a son on-board DPD headquarters in the aftermath of the assassination mentioned in Walt Brown's Treachery in Dallas

....Basel Robinson?

 

• FBI Report of 20 MAY 1964; aka CE 2985

 

[Jason Ward]

On 3/15/2018 at 8:21 AM, Paul Trejo said:

the Dallas Police and Sheriff's deputies were the principal ground-crew of the JFK Assassination

Hi Paul,

Perhaps there were a few honest cops around who just got swept under the carpet....like Tom Tilson?  Obviously the license plate number he recorded was decidedly unhelpful to the Lone Nut narrative?  Didn't DPD also try to quash a license plate seen in a photo at General Walker's house?

Maybe Dinah could still help us out here?

IMO this is how close you might be in blowing up the whole consensus JFK assassination narrative - a license plate.  If Tom Tilson recorded a license plate registered to anyone in the Walker Group, the Minutemen, the JBS, or various splinter groups, history is re-written.....

 

....HSCA Report Vol 12, p. 15

Edited April 1, 2018 by Jason Ward

[Paul Trejo]

21 hours ago, Roger DeLaria said:

One of the things that I remember while reading Treachery In Dallas, was when mentioning the DPD, he (paraphrasing) said "either DPD or someone in DPD uniforms". Could there have been ground crew/mechanics in DPD uniforms who were not DPD? 

Roger,

It's an interesting question.    In my opinion, however, there were plenty of Dallas Policemen who belonged to Radical Right groups in Dallas, who were ready to kill JFK, because of their political opinions about Patriotism.   If true Patriotism was Anticommunism, and if JFK was truly the leader (or a dupe) of the Communists, as the John Birch Society said, then killing JFK in Dallas would be an act of heroism -- certainly nothing to be ashamed of -- and certainly nothing to expect money for.

Mechanics (hired assassins) would have wanted large payments -- and this would risk blackmail in the future.    Sharpshooters -- like the Minutemen -- who would serve at no charge -- were obviously the far better choice.    By the way, the father of J.D. Tippit claimed that J.D. could shoot a butterfly in flight -- that's how good he was.   You rarely find "mechanics" that good.   Plus, such Minutemen would do it for the personal satisfaction.

All best,
--Paul

[Paul Trejo]

On 3/31/2018 at 7:12 PM, Jason Ward said:

...I'm going to offer weak inadmissible hearsay evidence only as a possible clue to consider and insist it proves nothing whatsoever.  The best it can do is point in the right direction.  What do you think of this snippet from Walt Brown's book?

---Walt Brown, Treachery in Dallas (1995), p. 189.

Mike Robinson is presented by Brown as a 14 year old boy inadvertently hearing a candid conversation in the DPD men's room on 22 November 1963.   As a police officer's son, he says he was downtown to watch the parade that day and naturally sought out his dad's office after the assassination....

Jason

Hi Jason,

Mike Robinson was not only the son of a DPD officer, but he also claims that he and his schoolmates personally knew J.D. Tippit, and they didn't like him.   But what was exciting was that they knew a cop who was killed right after JFK was killed, and the whole city of Dallas was in turmoil -- and so he and his pals rode their bikes to the DPD station.

He lived close by.   It makes logistical sense.

What Mike Robinson claims is that the DPD cop whom he heard confessing to the killing of JD Tippit was none other than Roscoe White -- the very same DPD cop whom Jack White claimed had provided the chin, neck, shoulders, lumpy right wrist and back-leaning stance of all of Lee Harvey Oswald's "Back Yard Photos" (BYP).   

What is also curious, is that Roscoe White's son, Ricky White, came out in 1993 with the claim that his father had confessed to his family that he had not only been a shooter at JFK that day, but that he also killed JD Tippit himself.

Roscoe White provides one of the most colorful instances of the CT that the Dallas Radical Right killed JFK.   His own son admits his father was a shooter -- and his own wife provided historians with a completely different BYP than anybody had ever seen before.

Mike Robinson's story is weird, yet what makes it weirder is that it fits so snugly into Ricky White's story.  It all suggests something that the Warren Commission would bend over backwards to deny -- that Oswald had ACCOMPLICES.

All best,
--Paul

Edited April 2, 2018 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Paul Trejo]

17 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Hi Paul,

Perhaps there were a few honest cops around who just got swept under the carpet....like Tom Tilson?  Obviously the license plate number he recorded was decidedly unhelpful to the Lone Nut narrative?  Didn't DPD also try to quash a license plate seen in a photo at General Walker's house?

Maybe Dinah could still help us out here?

IMO this is how close you might be in blowing up the whole consensus JFK assassination narrative - a license plate.  If Tom Tilson recorded a license plate registered to anyone in the Walker Group, the Minutemen, the JBS, or various splinter groups, history is re-written.....

..HSCA Report Vol 12, p. 15

Hi Jason,

What is crucial about retired officer Tom Tilson's personal, eye-witness account of Dealey Plaza immediately after the JFK killing is that he is the 3rd person to say that he saw a man running from the Dealey Plaza embankment (or TSBD) and into an automobile.

Roger Craig was one.  Marion Meharg was two.  Now Tom Tilson is three.

Like all witnesses who claimed that Oswald had Accomplices in the JFK murder, all three of these witnesses were discredited by the WC and the FBI.  

I am also reminded of Arnold Rowland, Silvia Odio and Harry Dean.

What they all had in common was their witness that LHO had accomplices.   That turned out to be unforgivable.

All best,
--Paul

Edited April 1, 2018 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Paul Trejo]

On 3/26/2018 at 6:48 PM, Mark Knight said:

Just a point: Holmes was a POSTAL INSPECTOR, not a POSTMASTER. A POSTMASTER is CEO of a single post office; the Postal Inspection Service are the post office "cops," or the investigative branch.

I'm only after accuracy; we are, after all, the EDUCATION Forum.

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the correction.   I'll watch that in future posts.   I've also corrected my own posts in this thread.

All best,
--Paul

Edited April 1, 2018 by Paul Trejo

[Jason Ward]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

.    Sharpshooters -- like the Minutemen -- who would serve at no charge -- were obviously the far better choice.    

 

 

versus

 

50 Years Ago, Jim Garrison said:

....The New York Times, 22 September 1967, p 21.

[Paul Trejo]

This revelation from the NY Times (9/22/1967, p. 21) demonstrates exactly what Jeff Caufield told me in the context of his recent book, General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy: the Extensive New Evidence of a Radical Right Conspiracy (2015).

Caufield told me that he had access to all of Jim Garrison's papers, and that these papers confirmed that Jim Garrison's original theory was a Dallas Radical Right CT in the killing of JFK.

This statement here, in late 1967, confirms Caufield's observation 100%.    It also matches my own CT as much as 99%.   I only wish Jim Garrison had more help in 1967.   It would have spared millions of Americans a lot of pain and worry about our Government. 

Notice in that NY Times article, that Garrison claimed to have an "investigator in Dallas."    But he didn't name that investigator.   In fact, I never saw any Dallas report from Jim Garrison's office -- so I think it was a ruse.  I think that Garrison was hoping that people from Dallas would begin to step forward.  But that never happened.

I think people, even today, underestimate how much Dallas residents would "close ranks" around their Civic Leaders and Police Department.   Nobody leaked any data from Dallas.   There was not one whistle-blower.   Not even Roger Craig, actually.  Even with this article in the NY Times, which comes closer, IMHO, than any other effort by Jim Garrison to name names in Dallas -- nothing came of it.   

This proves to me that Jim Garrison utterly failed to get whistle-blowers about General Walker,  Bill Decker, Will Fritz, Jesse Curry, James Hosty, Forrest Sorrels, and their immediate officers, like Robert Alan Surrey,  Buddy Walthers, Deputy Luke Mooney and so many others.

On the other hand, Jim Garrison successfully named every single person of interest who was in New Orleans -- the area under his own jurisdiction.   But without a whistle-blower inside Dallas, Jim Garrison could never solve the JFK murder. 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited April 2, 2018 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Jason Ward]

On 3/19/2018 at 12:26 PM, Paul Trejo said:

 

 

DPD  Marrion Baker.

 

 

Police and Sheriff testimony in the Warren Commission Part 14: Dallas Police Officer Marrion L Baker

M.L. Baker, age 33

• 8 years experience as solo motorcycle policeman; ~10 years with DPD overall
• Initially assigned to ride next to presidential limo.  Assignment changed while JFK at Love Field so no one rides on the side of the limo.
• Rides in motorcade adjacent to about the 7th car in line, a press car; a
• about a half a block behind the president in Dealey Plaza
• Had just stabilized his motorbike onto Houston St when he heard shots which "seemed high"
• pigeons flew from top of TSBD
• Stops his bike, briefly assesses the confused state of the crowd; proceeds inside TSBD along with unknown others
• Is confronted by Mr Truly, who announces himself as building manager and says "follow me, officer, and I will show you"
• Truly guides officer Baker to the automatic elevator in the back and Northwest corner of the TSBD, presses the button
• As the elevator does not arrive, they decide to take the stairs to the top where Baker thought the shots originated
• On the 2nd floor, Baker sees someone walking and follows them to the lunchroom
• In the lunchroom, officer Baker commands the unknown person "Come here," and the person turns around and walks to Baker
• Baker marks position 24 on exhibit 497 as the place he confronted then unknown man
• Officer Baker's gun is in his hand, he had drawn it in the stairwell
• Position 23 on exhibit 497 is where Baker first spotted the unknown man
• Baker asks Truly if the unknown man works at TSBD; Truly says yes
• Unknown man was not hurrying; at this point Rep Boggs has Baker say he met Oswald later at the police station
• 1 minute 15 seconds to 1 minute 30 seconds passes between the fist shot and when Baker confronts Oswald on the 2nd floor
• ...the above time estimate is based on re-enacting Baker's movements with a stopwatch
• the elevators seemed 3 to 4 floors up when Baker looked in the elevator shaft from the ground floor, shortly after entering the TSBD, and both elevators are together parked on the same floor
• several off the record discussions take place during this testimony - an unusually high number
• Light brown jacket and white shirt worn by Oswald, officer Baker says
• ...but Baker declines to positively identify clothing exhibits he is shown
• WC member Allen Dulles is directly active in this questioning to an unprecedented degree
• 30 seconds of time is spent on the 2nd floor, Baker says, noticing and evaluating Oswald
• Baker and Truly continue on elevator to floor 7, then stairs to the roof
• Officer Baker quickly realizes shots could not have been easily fired from the roof, because the edge wall is 5 feet high
• Baker tours all 4 sides of the building, briefly glancing over the west side towards the railroad tracks
• Capt Fritz made an broadcast commanding officers to the railroad tracks as officer Baker was getting of his motorbike to come inside the TSBD
• Baker climbs up the Hertz sign about 10 feet, but is certain no one could shoot from there
• Baker takes the elevator down; briefly stopping to talk to Inspector Sawyer on what seemed like the 3rd or 4th floor to report no one on the roof
• Baker returns to his motorbike, by this time he says there is officer guarding the front door
• Baker estimates 15 minutes inside TSBD during his talk with Oswald and search of the roof
• Oswald had on different clothes at the police station versus at TSBD, Baker says
• Apart from Oswald, Officer Banker also saw 2 unidentified white men by the elevator on the 1st floor
• Baker identifies the location of Truly's office on a floorplan of the TSBD
• the "blood and everything" hit the motorcycle escorts to the presidential limousine in such a way that the officers discussed among themselves the belief that the shots came from behind
• Officer Baker says Officer Martin had blood and wound debris on his motorbike, helmet, and uniform
• Baker leaves Dealey Plaza for the Trade Mart
• He is then joined by a sergeant and medical examiner who ask for his escort to Parkland
• At Parkland, officer Baker guards the presidential limo
• Officer Baker accompanies Kennedy's body to Love Field, and stays there for about 30 minutes
• Officer Jim Chaney, motorcycle officer riding to the right rear of the limo, tells officer Baker that 2 shots hit JFK and a separate shot hit John Connally
• The presidential limo stopped completely at the time of the shooting, several officers report, although Baker did not see this
• Baker reiterates that he saw no one from floors 2-7 on his journey to the roof
• Many people were on the overpass and grassy knoll immediately after the shots, Baker says
• an unidentified man ran from a motorcade vehicle towards the crowd, and ran back, followed by the crowd
• Baker testifies that one can fire a bolt action rifle with 3 seconds between shots

CONCERNS:

1. Officer Baker is the *best witness* of the officers reviewed so far.  There are no gaping questions or holes in his testimony that he fails to address.  This officer is 100% telling the truth, IMO.  Both WC members and lawyers try leading the witness but Baker refuses their pressure.  He refuses to say Oswald was in any way flustered or hurried, for example.
2. Why does Baker go to the Trade Mart after Dealey Plaza?
3. WC members, especially Allen Dulles, directly question this witness as no other.  Why?  Just interested or something more sinister...perhaps trying to trip him up?
4. This is the first we learn that Capt Fritz is ordering people to the railroad area in the first seconds after the gunfire, I think?....why?   
5. Now learning that Decker and Frtiz sent officers to the rail area, I feel very comfortable asking if Decker and Fritz did this to allow the true gunman time to escape?
6. The fact that Baker used a stopwatch with a secret service observer to time his re-created movements is devastating to the Oswald-did-it narrative.   It is impossible for us to believe Oswald fired 3 shots at the president, hid the rifle, and then talks calmly to Baker in the 2nd floor lunchroom with no signs of nervousness or trying to escape: BARELY ONE MINUTE after the FIRST shot.
7. The elevators are a concern; were they both stopped on the 6th floor when Baker saw them together in the shaft?
8. It seems that the elevators had no walls or had only partial barriers so that officer Baker had a few seconds to look in each floor on his way to the roof; why is this not probed further, especially what was happening on the 6th floor?
9. Establishing that other motorcycle officers confirmed JFK & Connally were shot by separate bullets practically devastates the magic bullet narrative
10. Baker apparently had a lot of time with the limo at Parkland.  What did he see?   What bullet damage on the limo?  Blood splatter patterns on the limo?  
11. Who ordered the removal of planned side riders like Baker to the rear of the limo and why?

Overall, DPD Officer M.L. Baker singlehandedly causes horrific damage to a prosecution's case against Oswald and would have been a tremendous defense witness perhaps alone assuring acquittal.  Baker's sighting Oswald in the TSBD as little as a minute and fifteen seconds after the FIRST shot tells everyone for eternity that Oswald could only have been a gunman by using superhuman abilities of movement and self-control.

Baker shows us just what a sloppy accident the assassination was to succeed at all.   If this is some master CIA plan with all details covered, how are there officer Bakers and all the other impertinent clues staring us in the face in the WR that practically prove there was a conspiracy?  Why are any devastating witnesses like Baker allowed at all if the WC is totally clued in on how to protect the conspirators?

C E 497 - Officer Baker sees Oswald while standing at 23; and confronts Oswald closeup at 24;  <1.5 minutes after shot 1

 

Edited April 3, 2018 by Jason Ward

[Paul Trejo]

15 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Police and Sheriff testimony in the Warren Commission Part 14: Dallas Police Officer Marrion L Baker (age 33)

<snip>

CONCERNS:

1. Officer Baker is the *best witness* of the officers reviewed so far.  There are no gaping questions or holes in his testimony that he fails to address.  This officer is 100% telling the truth, IMO.  Both WC members and lawyers try leading the witness but Baker refuses their pressure.  He refuses to say Oswald was in any way flustered or hurried, for example.
2. Why does Baker go to the Trade Mart after Dealey Plaza?
3. WC members, especially Allen Dulles, directly question this witness as no other.  Why?  Just interested or something more sinister...perhaps trying to trip him up?
4. This is the first we learn that Capt Fritz is ordering people to the railroad area in the first seconds after the gunfire, I think?....why?   
5. Now learning that Decker and Frtiz sent officers to the rail area, I feel very comfortable asking if Decker and Fritz did this to allow the true gunman time to escape?
6. The fact that Baker used a stopwatch with a secret service observer to time his re-created movements is devastating to the Oswald-did-it narrative.   It is impossible for us to believe Oswald fired 3 shots at the president, hid the rifle, and then talks calmly to Baker in the 2nd floor lunchroom with no signs of nervousness or trying to escape: BARELY ONE MINUTE after the FIRST shot.
7. The elevators are a concern; were they both stopped on the 6th floor when Baker saw them together in the shaft?
8. It seems that the elevators had no walls or had only partial barriers so that officer Baker had a few seconds to look in each floor on his way to the roof; why is this not probed further, especially what was happening on the 6th floor?
9. Establishing that other motorcycle officers confirmed JFK & Connally were shot by separate bullets practically devastates the magic bullet narrative
10. Baker apparently had a lot of time with the limo at Parkland.  What did he see?   What bullet damage on the limo?  Blood splatter patterns on the limo?  
11. Who ordered the removal of planned side riders like Baker to the rear of the limo and why?

...

Jason,

I continue to be surprised at how closely your interpretation of WC testimony matches my interpretation -- with only minor differences.  I have long held that DPD officer Marrion Baker's WC testimony is the truth.  Whether he told the whole truth, I cannot be certain today -- however, I am confident that every word that he chose to tell the WC was true and correct.

I also agree that Baker's testimony tends to exonerate Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) as the Lone Shooter in the JFK Assassination -- if indeed LHO was any sort of shooter at all.

HOWEVER -- just for the record -- if anybody wanted to saunter down calmly, from the 6th floor of the TSBD down to the 2nd floor in 90 seconds, that is easy to do, with time to spare.  So, I don't place much weight on that aspect.  Furthermore, LHO was a fairly good poker face, going by all the secrets that he kept from Marina Oswald and Ruth Paine.  So I don't weight that heavily, either.

I'm not fully exonerating LHO based only on Marrion Baker's testimony.  Yet it is amusing to see how far Allen Dulles would go to protect these cracks in the FBI's foregone conclusion of a Lone Shooter.

Now, why does Marrion Baker go to the Trade Mart when he's done at Dealey Plaza?  I'll guess that Baker really thought the shots came from the roof of the TSBD, and that he was out of touch with all the rest of the DPD for the 10-15 minutes that he was up on the TSBD roof.  If so, then the only place fresh in his mind was the Trade Mart -- nobody had told him about Parkland Hospital.  He possibly thought his peers were still at the Trade Mart -- so, in the absence of further information, he went there.  Just a guess.

As for the order for Dallas cops to go to the railroad yard behind the picket fence of the Grassy Knoll seconds after the JFK shots, that was not Captain Fritz, that was Chief Jesse Curry -- followed immediately by Sheriff Bill Decker.  They were eye-witnesses at Dealey Plaza, only 200 feet in front of the JFK limo.  (Captain Fritz was at the Trade Mart at the time.)

Being willing to give everybody the benefit of every doubt so that the best suspicion rises to the top, I'll overlook that Curry and Decker ordered officers to the parking lot behind the Grassy Knoll.  After all -- they were directly south of that area when JFK was shot. It was a fair guess.

I believe Baker -- just as I believe all of the TSBD employees, without exception.  The main difference is that most of the TSBD employees were sloppy in their time-estimates of their Dealey Plaza memories -- while Officer Baker went back to Dealey Plaza multiple times, with multiple associates and stop-watches, to time his movements.

By the way -- in my reading, Marrion Baker ran into the TSBD first, and Roy Truly ran in after him, because Truly was the supervisor, and this DPD cop meant business.  Baker demanded the elevator -- and to get to the roof ASAP.  Truly tried to get the elevator, but it was very easy to lock the elevator from within the cab -- with no other controls than to shout up six floors to release the lock.  But if the elevator cab user was down the hall stacking books, one shouted in vain.

I have no concern about the elevator.  Also, I'm not interested in the SBT or the Lone Shooter narrative today -- my only concern is to track every minute of the Dallas Police and Deputies at Dealey Plaza in the 10 minutes before, and the 60 minutes after the JFK Assassination. 

I do agree that Officer Baker's testimony about the limo would have been most interesting.  It's very sad that we don't have that.  Finally, Officer Baker would have had no clue who ordered the removal of side-of-limo motorcycle riders, or why. 

I agree that if the WC wanted to suppress Dealey Plaza witnesses, then Marrion Baker would have been a top candidate for suppression.  Probably suppressing him was inadvisable because: (1) Roy Truly had to mention him to account for his own movements; (2) several TSBD employees saw Truly and Baker together; and (3) Baker had nothing concrete with which to truly shatter the SBT or the LN theories -- only to rattle them a little.

All best,
--Paul

Edited April 3, 2018 by Paul Trejo
typos