General Walker, Lee Harvey Oswald and Dallas Officials

[Jason Ward]

Here's an interesting dichotomy....

The FBI in Dallas says there is no such thing as local Minutemen.  (Hosty?)  But the ATF in Dallas says the Minutemen are massive in assets, threatening terrorist action, trading in illegal weapons, and supplying anti-Castro Cubans.  

The Dallas FBI office will continually deny the existence of right wing extremists in the area during the JFK investigation and will repeatedly roadblock ATF agent Frank Ellsworth's attempts to investigate Walker and the Minutemen. 

 

1. Note reference to Hosty at the bottom of this memo.

 

 

2. NO Minutemen in the DFW area says the FBI:

3. The Ft Worth PD confirms to Hosty there are no Minutemen in Fort Worth:

4. ....yet in the same memo as (3) above, there is evidence that Masen is selling weapons to the MINUTEMEN:

5. Hosty recognizes Minutemen activity in September of 1963 but he denies it later (see above):

https://www.ciadidnotkilljfk.com

Edited June 18, 2018 by Jason Ward

[Jason Ward]

Hmmmmmmmmm......General Walker's name is mentioned in an ongoing investigation the FBI and ATF have concerning mail order guns..........seems like someone we've heard of in the Kennedy assassination has something to do with a mail ordered gun???

 

[Paul Trejo]

1 hour ago, Jason Ward said:

It seems at least one WC staffer thought DPD testimony was dishonest.

This is from a late 1964 internal FBI memo outlining gossipy dirt on WC staffers, presumably to discredit them if necessary:

 

Hi Jason,

Yes, that was attorney Burt Griffin, a WC investigator on the Jack Ruby case.   I am pleased to count Mr. Griffin as a friendly voice in my project to dig deeper into General Walker as a JFK plotter.   Mr. Griffin once asked me for some of General Walker's personal papers that I had found at UT Austin back in 2014.

Burt Griffin was the WC staffer to whom ATF agent Frank Ellsworth gave his account of the Minutemen and Walker as probably neck-deep in the JFK Assassination, and Mr. Griffin was also struck by the fact that Jack Ruby had named General Walker as well.

When I asked Mr. Griffin precisely why he had called a DPD officer a L-I-A-R, he was unwilling to share that information at that time -- because, IIRC, he was under contract for somebody else to publish his reasons.  Yet I never saw that explanation in print.   

If anybody else has seen it -- please share it.   If not, I will consider asking Mr. Griffin again.   He is a valuable JFK researcher, having served on the WC, and he is very open-minded.

All best,,
--Paul

[Jason Ward]

 

                  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2018 by Jason Ward

[Paul Trejo]

Jason,

You have again raised the Walker-did-it CT to a new level.   Fantastic work.   Your ability to filter through countless FOIA documents and the Mary Ferrell web site is a clear talent.

By showing that Dallas FBI agent James Hosty was directly involved in the denial of any dangers from the Radical Right that existed in Dallas in 1963, we are showing Hosty as directly next to the center of the JFK plot -- General Walker.   After all, the Dallas Minutemen were known as General Walker's boys.

When the Washington DC Secret Service was preparing to come to Dallas, they followed standard protocol and asked the Dallas FBI if there were any known dangers in Dallas, and whom they should visit and warn before they traveled so far.    The official word from James Hosty and Forrest Sorrells was: "there are no dangerous people in Dallas or Fort Worth."

This is not my opinion -- this was stated  multiple times in the Warren Commission, by multiple witnesses.

Now -- because of your work, Jason, we have further confirmation of this specific falsehood being spoon fed to the Washington DC Secret Service PRS (Protective Research Section).

The PRS always depended on the local FBI for their true records.   In this case, Hosty and Sorrell kept the truth from the PRS -- very deliberately.

Here -- obviously -- is the root of the US Government screw-up that led to JFK getting his head blown off in public.

So, this is superlative research and reporting on your part.

I should also point out here that the historical work by Chris Cravens (1993) shows that the WANTED FOR TREASON: JFK poster was not only distributed on the streets of Dallas  on the morning of 11/22/1963, but it was also distributed in Dallas one month earlier, on the night of 10/24/1963, when Adlai Stevenson came to Dallas to speak for the United Nations, and was famously  humiliated by the residents of Dallas.

Yes -- this was the Minutemen at work.

All best,
--Paul

Edited March 26, 2018 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Jason,

I know you're busy at your day job -- just as I am.   I also know that reviewing the 1964 WC testimony of Dallas Police can be a boring and time-consuming task.  So, I will wait patiently.   Yet I'm finding your summaries and analyses of these Dallas Police to be riveting.

We'll easily be able to link up the falsehoods of FBI agent James Hosty, IMHO, with the many other falsehoods from the DPD and Dallas Sheriff's office among those who plotted to kill JFK -- after we have reviewed further key pieces of WC testimony.

After your review of the DPD cops on your list -- may I ask you to add the WC testimony of the four key people who interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald inside the office of DPD Captain Will Fritz that weekend, namely: (1) Dallas FBI agent James Hosty; (2) Dallas Postal Inspector Harry Holmes; (3) Dallas Secret Service agent, Forrest Sorrels; and (4) Dallas FBI agent James Bookhout? 

All best,
--Paul

Edited April 1, 2018 by Paul Trejo
Postal Inspector not Postmaster

[Mark Knight]

Just a point: Holmes was a POSTAL INSPECTOR, not a POSTMASTER. A POSTMASTER is CEO of a single post office; the Postal Inspection Service are the post office "cops," or the investigative branch.

I'm only after accuracy; we are, after all, the EDUCATION Forum.

[Jason Ward]

On 3/19/2018 at 12:26 PM, Paul Trejo said:

...

In my quick review, that limits it to those marked in purple above.   Here's my new list of 14 Dallas Police employees -- and I think this is a manageable number:

 

...

DPD Homicide Detectives (6):

... C.W. Brown...

 

...

 

Police and Sheriff testimony in the Warren Commission Part 10 Dallas Police Department Detective C.W. Brown

C.W. Brown, Age 38:

• 13 years as a DPD officer, currently homicide & robbery detective
• Heard of assassination while booking a prisoner into jail
• Ordered by Lt. Wells to "get down there and help them;" proceeds to TSBD
• Enters TSBD by back stairs and goes directly to floor 6, meeting Capt Fritz; partner goes in TSBD front door
• Brown says Capt Fritz commands Brown & Det. Senkel to take "about five" TSBD employees on the 6th floor to DPD HQ to give statements
• Back at Police HQ, Detective Brown is getting a statement from Bill Shelley when Oswald is brought in to an interview room
• Because "the phones were ringing," Brown answers a phone.  It is Capt Fritz calling from the TSBD!
• Det. Brown tells Capt Fritz that Oswald (1) has shot a police officer; (2) is a TSBD employee, and; (3) is in custody
• Capt Fritz announces he will be back at the police station in a few minutes
• Brown says he tells Fritz that "we might have the boy responsible for that;" clarifying his phrase "for that" means the Kennedy assassination
• After "the confusion dies down," Det. Brown continues taking the statement of Bill Shelley
• Bill Shelley says Oswald is a subordinate and that Shelley is responsible for him; further details around LHO's work duties are provided
• Shelly assigns a task to Oswald on the morning of the 22nd, but does not see Oswald again until that afternoon at the police station
• Det. Brown says that his partner, Det. Senkel, takes an affidavit from TSBD employee Bonnie Ray Williams
• Det. Brown says that Det. Senkel is "getting an affidavit from every employee in the building that day"
• WC attorney Belin prompts Det. Brown to admit that at 6:30PM he heard Dallas city bus driver Cecil McWatters identify Oswald in a lineup
• Brown quotes bus driver McWatters as saying, "Yes, he is the one who got on the bus. I gave him a transfer"
• Detective Dohrity shows McWatters a bus transfer, according to Det. Brown, which McWatters confirms he, McWatters, issued
• Dallas city bus drive McWatters demonstrates his ticket-punch on a blank piece of paper in front of Detective Brown
• McWatters compares the punch made on a blank piece of paper to the punch on the bus transfer and concludes it is the same
• Detective Brown takes an affidavit from Dallas city bus driver Cecil McWatters
• At 7:45pm, Detective Brown witnesses Virginia & Barbara Davis pick Oswald out of a lineup related to the Tippit shooting
• Det Brown makes a point that the two Davis women "instantly" identify Oswald, even before he is brought fully into the identity parade stage
• Brown snaps his fingers together during the WC deposition to audibly indicate how fast Oswald was identified by the women Davis
• Brown volunteers that Lieutenant T.P. Wells received a call from Barbara Davis indicating that Virginia Davis had found a .38 cartridge shell in their front yard
• Detectives Brown and Dohrity are dispatched to collect the .38 cartridge shell from the Davis women at 7pm by Lt. Wells
• After handing the shell to Dohrity, the Davis women are brought back to DPD headquarters to make a statement, Brown says
• Det Brown asserts "we were keeping the evidence chain here," and insists he applied his initials to the shell casing, as did Det. Dohrity, before handing over the shell casing to the "crime lab"

CONCERNS:

1. Detective Brown is the only officer yet studied who practices the police-standard chain of evidence, which he does with the shell casing found by the Davis women.

2. Given Brown's insistence on the expected chain-of-evidence habit of initialing items as they are passed between police officials, how is it that the evidence found on the 6th floor is treated so sloppily with no chain of evidence effort made whatsoever?

3. Brown has significant gaps in his itinerary that day.  What was he doing?

4. The conclusion that Oswald is the gunman in both Dealey Plaza and Oak Cliff is very quick; it's unclear how a worker missing from the TSBD is so certainly named a presidential assassin based only on the fact that he was missing from the TSBD.

5. Does Fritz admit to talking to Detective Brown?  Where exactly is Fritz calling from in the TSBD?

6. The sequenced story Brown provides is minimalist and hits only the essential ingredients of guilt (JFK shot; Oswald identified by Shelley as a missing employee simultaneously as Oswald is brought in to the police station for shooting Tibbit; McWatters identifies Oswald; the Davis sisters identify Oswald; a .38 shell casing appears along with the Davis women.  Very neat.  An orderly and concise conviction of guilt in 2 separate shooting incidents which injure or kill 4 people)

7. Why does Brown go straight to the TSBD?   Why does he go to the back door?  Why does he go only to the 6th floor?  Who else does Brown see or interact with on the 6th floor or in the TSBD?

8. Is this the first we've heard of ~5 TSBD employees on the 6th floor with Fritz around the time the gun and shell casings are found?

9. Out of all the phones ringing at the DPD that day, Brown picks up the phone and it is, fortuitously for the quick pace of the narrative, Captain Fritz!?!

10.  Are bus drivers like Cecil McWatters really so diligent in studying their passengers that they can identify them later in the day?

11.  The elaborate theater of McWatters showing Brown that "the transfer" is in fact from McWatters' ticket punch is a blatant attempt to oversell weak evidence.  No chain of evidence provided with the found bus transfer; additionally of course previous testimony is that Oswald took a cab, did not need a bus transfer, and changed his entire wardrobe while at the Beckley rooming house.  A hole from a ticket punch is an Agatha Christie-style clue that IMO took some serious advanced contemplation as it strategically and cinematically enhances McWatters' reliability.  Ticket punches are unique to each driver/conductor, even in systems with 1000+ ticket punchers.  Not many people know that - this evidence reeks.

12. Det. Brown's testimony around the Davis women portrays them as the most efficient, certain, and reliable witnesses in the history of homicide investigations

13. Taken as a composite, each police witness is providing a connect-the-dots picture of 22 November, with, it seems, most witnesses providing the next missing or needed plot point in the story that Oswald did it and in the story of how Oswald was caught so quickly.   

 

Overall, Brown to me smells of prepared testimony.   He obviously came in with a few bullet points (pun intended) he had to get on the record.  WC Attorney Belin obliges him by allowing Brown to run the proceedings and make an unchallenged narrative of events.   I almost want to ask if Belin was warned that Brown is a fragile witness of limited improvisation ability such that Belin makes an especially tender effort to let this witness come and go quickly without further probing of any kind.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Jason Ward

[Jason Ward]

 

1. Dallas city bus Driver Cecil McWatters in Warren Commission testimony; asked whether the man he identified in a DPD lineup took a bus transfer:

 

vs.

 

2. DPD Detective C.W. Brown's testimony as to what McWatters said at the DPD lineup

[Paul Trejo]

Hi Jason,

Excellent -- I was just going to post McWatters' denial myself.   McWatters was a weak WC witness.   He doesn't even want to ID Oswald -- why is he even there?       

For some reason, some witnesses seem willing to tell the DPD cops whatever they want to hear.  They seem to sing to whatever tune the DPD calls.   Then they take the witness stand and take it back.   Same with the taxi driver.  Same with the Mexico City bus folks.   Yet the official WC version still relies on these people!  

All best,
--Paul

Edited March 27, 2018 by Paul Trejo

[Jason Ward]

2 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Hi Jason,

Excellent -- I was just going to post McWatters' denial myself.   McWatters was a weak WC witness.   He doesn't even want to ID Oswald -- why is he even there?       

For some reason, some witnesses seem willing to tell the DPD cops whatever they want to hear.  They seem to sing to whatever tune the DPD calls.   Then they take the witness stand and take it back.   Same with the taxi driver.  Same with the Mexico City bus folks.   Yet the official WC version still relies on these people!  

All best,
--Paul

 

Hi Paul,

This reminds me of  a somewhat lesser known case - the case of DPD officer Robert W. Wood and patsy Randall Dale Adams.   

In 1976, the DPD had great enthusiasm for hanging a cop-killer quickly, just like in the Tippit-Oswald case.  Adams was convicted of killing Officer Wood on weak or coached witness testimony and shoddy crime scene management.   Adams escaped the DPD's mendacity after 13 years in prison - Oswald lived only a couple days and paid with his life.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randall_Dale_Adams

I've seen you and many others speculate on Tippit's involvement in the JFK assassination conspiracy.   He's undoubtedly a hard right winger.  Even so, the most valuable contribution Tippit made to the authors of the assassination is -perhaps- the way his murder triggered such enthusiasm for quickly hanging a cop killer among the revenge-minded Dallas law enforcement community.

There's also a common link between Randall Dale Adams and Oswald - the involvement of DPD officer Gus Rose and DA Henry Wade.

Jason

 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Jason Ward

[Paul Trejo]

On 3/26/2018 at 8:30 PM, Jason Ward said:

Police and Sheriff testimony in the Warren Commission Part 10 Dallas Police Department Detective C.W. Brown

CONCERNS:

1. Detective Brown is the only officer yet studied who practices the police-standard chain of evidence, which he does with the shell casing found by the Davis women.

2. Given Brown's insistence on the expected chain-of-evidence habit of initialing items as they are passed between police officials, how is it that the evidence found on the 6th floor is treated so sloppily with no chain of evidence effort made whatsoever?

3. Brown has significant gaps in his itinerary that day.  What was he doing?

4. The conclusion that Oswald is the gunman in both Dealey Plaza and Oak Cliff is very quick; it's unclear how a worker missing from the TSBD is so certainly named a presidential assassin based only on the fact that he was missing from the TSBD.

5. Does Fritz admit to talking to Detective Brown?  Where exactly is Fritz calling from in the TSBD?

6. The sequenced story Brown provides is minimalist and hits only the essential ingredients of guilt (JFK shot; Oswald identified by Shelley as a missing employee simultaneously as Oswald is brought in to the police station for shooting Tibbit; McWatters identifies Oswald; the Davis sisters identify Oswald; a .38 shell casing appears along with the Davis women.  Very neat.  An orderly and concise conviction of guilt in 2 separate shooting incidents which injure or kill 4 people)

7. Why does Brown go straight to the TSBD?   Why does he go to the back door?  Why does he go only to the 6th floor?  Who else does Brown see or interact with on the 6th floor or in the TSBD?

8. Is this the first we've heard of ~5 TSBD employees on the 6th floor with Fritz around the time the gun and shell casings are found?

9. Out of all the phones ringing at the DPD that day, Brown picks up the phone and it is, fortuitously for the quick pace of the narrative, Captain Fritz!?!

10.  Are bus drivers like Cecil McWatters really so diligent in studying their passengers that they can identify them later in the day?

11.  The elaborate theater of McWatters showing Brown that "the transfer" is in fact from McWatters' ticket punch is gilding the lilly.  No chain of evidence provided with the found bus transfer; additionally of course previous testimony is that Oswald took a cab, did not need a bus transfer, and changed his entire wardrobe while at the Beckley rooming house.  A hole from a ticket punch is an Agatha Christie-style clue that IMO took some serious advanced contemplation as it strategically enhances McWatters' reliability.  Ticket punches are unique to each driver/conductor, even in systems with 1000+ ticket punchers.  Not many people know that - this evidence reeks.

12. Det. Brown's testimony around the Davis women portrays them as the most efficient, certain, and reliable witnesses in the history of homicide investigations

13. Taken as a composite, each police witness is providing a connect-the-dots picture of 22 November, with, it seems, most witnesses providing the next missing or needed plot point in the story that Oswald did it and in the story of how Oswald was caught so quickly.   

Overall, Brown to me smells of prepared testimony.   He obviously came in with a few bullet points (pun intended) he had to get on the record.  WC Attorney Belin obliges him by allowing Brown to run the proceedings and make an unchallenged narrative of events.   I almost want to ask if Belin was warned that Brown is a fragile witness of limited improvisation ability such that Belin makes an especially tender effort to let this witness come and go quickly without further probing of any kind.

Hi Jason,

Thanks for this summary and analysis of DPD Homicide Detective Charles W. Brown.  Here's my feedback on your 13 concerns.

1. Chain of evidence is one of the most important factors in the TSBD testimony.   

2. Brown's initialing of the alleged .38 shell found by the Davis sisters shows his conceren for it -- so it's amazing that the TSBD 6th floor evidence is treated without regard for chain-of-evidence.

3. Brown's story was practically read from a script.  It's skinny and lacks crucial details.

4. The conclusion that LHO is killer of both Tippit and JFK is far too quick to be guesswork for somebody at the level of street work.  It's not like a worker at a more general level -- there is almost no evidence and Brown knows it.

4.1.  It is impossible to conclude from the fact of a worker missing from the TSBD that "they must have killed JFK."   In fact, there were *many* workers missing from the TSBD at 1pm.

4.2.  The DPD cops who told Roy Truly to gather up all his men and count them were, IMHO, among the JFK plotters.  

4.3.  They would know that LHO was not in the building, and they would know that Roy Truly would do anything the DPD told him to do.

4.4.  It was just a matter of moments before Chief Lumpkin would take Roy Truly upstairs to meet Captain Fritz, who had only arrived inside the TSBD a few minutes ago.

5. Fritz never mentions C.W. Brown except in the context of the LHO lineups. 

5.1.  Since Fritz called DPD HQ after LHO arrived at the DPD HQ, Fritz didn't call from the TSBD, but from the office of Sheriff Bill Decker. We have this timeline from Detective Boyd.

6.  As for the sequence that Brown provides: (1) JFK killed; (2) LHO ID'd by Shelley; (3) LHO ID'd by  McWatters at lineup; (4) Davis sisters report a .38 shell that evening; (5) Brown and Dhority get shell and bring the Davis sisters; (6) LHO ID'd by the Davis sisters -- it is all too pat. 

7.  Brown goes to the TSBD because he is so "ordered" by "Lieutenant Wells."  But Wells never testifies for the TSBD. 

7.1.  The time is suggested roughly -- JFK is shot -- Lt. Wells orders Brown and his partner to "get out there and help" and when Brown and his partner arrive at the TSBD, Captain Fritz is already there on the 6th floor. 

7.2.  Yet we know from Boone that Fritz was on the sidewalk below the TSBD with Sheriff Decker at 1:12 PM, when the bullet shells were found on the TSBD 6th floor.

7.3.  This tells us, that after JFK was killed, more than 40 minutes had passed before Brown and his partner arrived at the TSBD.

7.4.  This also explains why they went to the TSBD -- dozens of Dallas Police were already there at the TSBD.  

7.5.  Yet since the hour was so late, and Captain Fritz was now on the 6th floor, this suggests no clue why Brown would go in the back door while his partner went in the front door.

7.6.  The cautious mode of entry suggests that they arrived very early -- early enough to be cautious.  But by 1pm, with the TSBD teeming with cops, there was no need to be cautious.

7.7.  Brown gives us no details about what happened on the 6th floor TSBD except that he saw Captain Fritz there, who ordered Brown and his partner to take "five or so" TSBD employees back to HQ for questioning. 

7.8.  At the very, very best, we are speaking of time compression here -- virtually no details.

8.  Let me give Brown the benefit of the doubt on this "6th floor" location of the "five or so TSBD" employees.

8.1.  IMHO, Brown meant that he got Fritz' "order" on the 6th floor -- the employees were entirely the crew of Roy Truly -- mostly African-American employees -- all gathered for roll-call on the 1st floor.  

8.2.  We have a photograph, IIRC, of these African-Employees being loaded into a car outside the TSBD to be taken downtown for questioning.  They are all Roy Truly's guys.

8.3.  They were all on the 1st floor.   I'll let this one slide.

9.  It is also plausible that when Brown picked up the phone, it was Captain Fritz, because Brown worked in the Homicide bureau, and most DPD calls did not go there, but Fritz's calls would go there.   I'll let this one slide, too.

10. McWatters' ID of LHO is ridiculous.  You have already shown the blatant contradiction. 

10.1.  This is substantial evidence of witness tampering to frame a suspect.  It's so obvious, IMHO. 

11.  The story of McWatters' ticket punch is clearly meant to REPLACE the chain-of-evidence for that bus transfer.

11.1.  We have no verification outside the DPD, that LHO ever had a bus transfer.   All the WC witness testimony relied upon to identify LHO on a city bus that afternoon, crumbles under scrutiny.

11.2.  The officers of the DPD Homicide Bureau are our only witnesses to a "bus transfer."

12.  The whole account of the Davis sisters is also too pat.  

12.1.   Also, their WC testimony also falls apart, IMHO.

DPD Homicide Detective Charles W. Brown provided a quick-and-dirty portrait of how LHO killed both JFK and Tippit, and how he was caught so quickly.  Way, way too pat. 

All best,
--Paul

Edited April 5, 2018 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Jason Ward]

On 3/19/2018 at 12:26 PM, Paul Trejo said:

...

In my quick review, that limits it to those marked in purple above.   Here's my new list of 14 Dallas Police employees -- and I think this is a manageable number:

..., Bob Carroll, ...

 

Police and Sheriff testimony in the Warren Commission Part 11: DPD Detective Bob Carroll

Bob Carroll, Age 33

• 10 Years as a DPD police officer
• 22 November 63: assigned to crowd control at 700 Main St, about 4 blocks from Dealey Plaza
• After motorcade passes, stops at a bar to talk to a friend, hears of JFK shooting on TV at bar, proceeds to DPD headquarters
• Ordered by DPD dispatcher to crime scene; arrives at TSBD "right around" 1pm or "a little before"
• "they" assigned Carroll to search the TSBD basement 
• While searching for flashlights back on the 1st floor, Carroll hears a DPD officer is shot in Oak Cliff
• Searching for information, Det. Carroll uses a TSBD office to call the DPD dispatcher, who announces officer J D Tippit is dead
• Carroll asks for permission to go to Oak Cliff; once granted he drives to Oak Cliff with officer K E Lyons
• While driving in Oak Cliff at 300 E Jefferson, a radio call is heard by Carroll announcing a suspect "was seen going in" the Texas Theatre
• Carroll drives the remaining 5 blocks on Jefferson to the Texas Theatre and is the first police unit at the scene, followed closely by a patrol car
• "a lady" at the theater informs Det. Carroll that "he" is upstairs
• Det. Carroll promptly searches the balcony and based on his "vague idea" of a description given by the DPD dispatcher, Carroll decides that no one on the balcony is who he is looking for
• WC attorney Ball pressures Det. Carroll for the description he was using at the Texas Theatre, but Carroll cannot recall the details except to say that it was a "rough description"
• Now going down the stairs, Carroll hears someone yell "hear he is or something like that"
• Carroll captures Oswald from Oswald's right; Sgt. Hill on the Left, officer Ray Hawkins from behind
• Carroll sees Oswald struggle with officer Nick McDonald and others
• Seeing a pistol aimed at him, Carroll grabs the gun from "whoever had it" and puts it in his belt
• Det. Carroll thinks officer Ray Hawkins cuffed Oswald
• No one struck Oswald as far as Carroll could see
• "someway or other" Paul Bentley joins Jerry Hill and Carroll in Carroll's police car as Oswald is put in the backseat with Hutson
• Oswald protests police brutality as leaving the theater, Carroll says, along with mentioning what he had done and not done and "stuff like that"
• Carroll says that while driving to DPD headquarters, Oswald says he has done nothing wrong, except carrying a pistol
• Oswald had a mark "up here, somewhere...I'm not real sure," Carroll says, after noticing Oswald's upper eye in the car
• According to Detective Carroll, a lynch mob had formed in front of the Texas Theatre, demanding to kill Oswald themselves
• Oswald was nut muzzled from speaking, Carroll says
• No one asks Oswald about Kennedy in the car ride to downtown, only Tippit
• Carroll does not remember who was asking Oswald questions in the car, but questions were asked about Tippit
• Sgt Hill obtains the pistol from Carroll in the car ride to DPD headquarters
• Carroll does not remember who took custody of Oswald at the police station
• "by the way," Carroll says, K E Lyons was also in the car taking Oswald downtown
• Det Carroll does not know whether the pistol was unloaded in the car or at the station, but he knows he saw it unloaded and saw the bullets
• 6 bullets were in the pistol, it was full
• Carroll notices a small indention on one of the bullets, as he was inspecting the gun in the personnel office
• Carroll cannot remember whether McDonald is with him inspecting the gun, suddenly, Carroll changes his testimony to reveal McDonald was with him in the personnel office inspecting the gun
• McDonald marks his initials on the gun 
• Det Carroll does not know who took the bullets from the gun
• Carroll identifies a WC exhibit as the gun he obtained in thee Texas Theatre
• Carroll now says he put his initials on the gun while in the personnel office
• Carroll hears two names for Oswald mentioned in the car, but cannot remember who was doing the talking
• Carroll hears of the Beckley address "later that day"

CONCERNS

1. Why does Det. Carroll initially state that officer McDonald marks the gun to preserve the chain of evidence only to later identify the gun in person because the gun contains his, Carroll's, initials?
2. Who gave orders to Carroll at the TSBD?  To search the basement and go to Oak Cliff?
3. Is Carroll sent to the TSBD basement so as not to disturb whatever's happening on the 6th floor?
4. Why is Carroll a few blocks from the Texas Theatre when he hears "a suspect" is in the Texas Theatre?   Why was he on that part of Jefferson?
5. How does Carroll know the people he saw on the balcony were not the suspect if Carroll cannot provide the suspect's description?
6. From whom did Carroll snatch the gun from in the Texas Theatre?
7. Why does a mob form at the Texas Theatre and what information do they have to make them ready to kill Oswald on the spot?
8. A man is arrested for shooting a cop on the day the president is assassinated and Carroll does not know who took custody of Oswald at DPD headquarters?
9. The chain of evidence for the pistol is a complete fiasco.   There are at least 3 officers who handled the pistol and testimony that two officers put their initials on the pistol....what really happened with the pistol at DPD headquarters?  and why were they in the personnel office with the pistol?
10. WC attorney Ball is at times more probing than his colleague Bellin, although for the most part Carroll is allowed to gloss over unlikely or confused parts in his narrative.
11. There is apparently no usable description of Oswald when Carroll arrives at the theatre - so how do they choose to arrest Oswald?

Det. Carroll seems like he was deliberately kept away from the main action on the 6th floor of the TSBD.   

All previous testimony has seen officers quickly get to the 6th floor, sometimes inexplicably; but Carroll is sent to the basement!   Will we see in testimony a clear demarcation of officers who immediately get to the 6th floor and those who are kept away from the 6th floor?   

The convenient location a few blocks from the Texas Theatre at the time Carroll is ordered to the Texas Theatre makes us wonder if Carroll set off for the Texas Theatre immediately upon leaving the TSBD?  Probably Carroll's most significant role here is as the first cop on the scene at the theater.   My inclination is to believe that Carroll is playing ball and going along with a story but is not actually an active conspirator in Kennedy's assassination.  

 

Stuart Reed's photo of Oswald's removal from the Texas Theatre; Detective Bob Carroll is to the left, circled in red.   His testimony is that he puts a pistol in his belt, where it stays until sometime in the car ride back to downtown Dallas....so why does this picture show a picture of Carroll holding a gun in his right hand?

 

 

 

https://billiongraves.com/grave/Bob-K-Carroll/20729854

 

[Jason Ward]

 

DPD patrol officer M N McDonald says he handed the gun found on Oswald to Detective Cooper:

 

vs.

 

DPD Detective Cooper does not know who was holding the gun and grabbed it out of an unknown hand:

[Jason Ward]

 

 

On 3/19/2018 at 12:26 PM, Paul Trejo said:

Here's my new list of 14 Dallas Police employees -- and I think this is a manageable number:

... Marvin Johnson, 

...

·     

Police and Sheriff testimony in the Warren Commission Part 12: DPD Homicide & Robbery Detective Marvin Johnson

 

Marvin Johnson, age 43

   

·         10 years with the DPD.  22 November 1963: investigating another case, not assigned to motorcade duty

·         12:40 hears of JFK shooting, proceeds to DPD headquarters

·         Lt Wells orders Det Johnson to the TSBD

·         TSBD arrival is around 1 or shortly before; looks for Capt Fritz; directed to the 6^th floor by uniformed officer at front door

·         Fritz orders Johnson to preserve the scene after the shell casings were found

·         Johnson is now certain the TSBD 6^th floor is where the shooting occurred – because of the found casings

·         WC Attorney Belin says, “you mentioned” the number 3, but Johnson did NOT mention the number 3

·         WC Attorney Belin leads Det Johnson to agree there were 3 found hulls

·         The shell casing were found in the southeast corner of the 6^th floor, Johnson says

·         Det Johnson is “pretty sure” the hulls were already found when he arrived at the TSBD

·         Det Johnson testifies he recalls that one shell casing was closer to the wall than the picture taken by Day or Studebaker offered as a WC exhibit; all 3 shell casings were together by the wall, Johnson says

·         A long narrow paper bag is in the area of the found shells, Johnson says, along with the remains of a brown bag lunch

·         L D Montgomery unfolded up the long narrow paper bag, Jonson says

·         Johnson and WC attorney Belin discuss at length box arrangements and where the long paper bag was found

·         Johnson deduces the long bag is what “he probably brought” the gun in to the 6^th floor

·         The long sack is dusted for prints; but the lunch sack is turned over to the crime lab

 

CONCERNS:

1.       Why does WC attorney Belin announce repeatedly that 3 shells were found before asking the Det. Johnson how many shells were found?

2.       Det Johnson testifies that all three shells were close to the window, which suggests at least one shell was moved.  The official crime scene photos show one shell 2 feet or so away from the window. Who moved the shells and why?

3.       There is a timing inconsistency here between Det Johnson, Inspector Sawyer, and Captain Fritz, et. al.   Det Johnson testifies he arrived at 1 or a shortly before 1 and at this time the shells were already found.   But Fritz says he arrived at 12:58; and Sawyer says the shells were found at 1:12.  [see DPD report below for an additional statement from Johnson as to TSBD arrival time]

4.       Doesn’t Det Johnson contradict Deputies Mooney and Craig as to who was tasked with guarding the evidence of the found shells?

5.       If I were cross examining Detective Johnson, I would wonder if he saw more or less than 3 shell casings and I would make him pinpoint where exactly the shells were located compared to the official picture.

6.       The whole 6^th floor part of Detective Johnson’s narratives just doesn’t make sense compared with other testimony.   He has different people protecting the shells, different times, and a different shell arrangement than that suggested in other testimony.  

7.       Either Johnson is a very confused witness or we have reason to suspect that there were two different scenes that day, one scene Johnson saw and the other scene Fritz et al. describe in testimony – with each scene having different officers, different shell arrangements, and at different times.  We wonder if Johnson is testifying to the wrong scenario and not the one agreed upon by other police witnesses?

8.       From a broader perspective I wonder if Johnson is a totally honest witness whose honesty contradicts the practiced master narrative heard elsewhere?

 

1. From the City of Dallas Police Archives.   Johnson says he arrives at the TSBD at 12:50. Fritz was already there and the shells were already found:

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box1.htm

 

2. From the University of Texas at Arlington; Ft Worth Star-Telegram Collection.   DPD Detective Marvin Johnson at the TSBD:

https://library.uta.edu/digitalgallery/items/browse

Edited March 27, 2018 by Jason Ward