General Walker, Lee Harvey Oswald and Dallas Officials

[Paul Trejo]

Jason,

You have just outlined one of the most unique and interesting JFK Conspiracy Theories I have ever read in 25 years of reading JFK CT literature.   

Furthermore, you have constructed it on the basis of WC evidence and sworn testimony.   I conclude that this line of thinking merits further digging -- in exactly the same spot where we are currently digging.   This gold mine is not exhausted.

All best,
--Paul

Edited April 15, 2018 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Jason Ward]

5 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Jason,

You have just outlined one of the most interesting JFK Conspiracy Theories I have ever read in 25 years of reading JFK CT literature.   

Furthermore, you have constructed it on the basis of WC evidence and sworn testimony.   I conclude that this line of thinking merits further digging -- in exactly the same spot were are currently digging.   This gold mine is not exhausted.

All best,
--Paul

It's really only what the likes of you and Dr Caufield and Jerry Rose have already said.   All I'm suggesting we consider is that the impact of switching from commie conspiracy to Lone Nut might be seen in the timeframe schism that to me sticks out like a sore thumb.   In essence, the WC was never part of the plan and the tiresome need to matchup testimony with radio logs creates a problem they never anticipated.   They planned for this day to be done at about 1pm with Oswald dead.   Furthermore, the assassination was to be blamed on Castro using the Mexico City visit as the last link in the commie conspiracy money pipeline.   Instead they had to deal with an unplanned 3 day saga of Oswald still alive and they had to tidy up the lingering commie conspiracy evidence already planted in the record.

It's not a whole CT, it's merely an expansion of an existing one that might cast the timeframe and testimony in a different light.

I am never emotionally invested in a CT and my subplots that may or may not form into your CT... so if anything I bring up doesn't make sense we can just drop it right away and I will not be trying to defend silly ideas.

 

Jason

Edited April 14, 2018 by Jason Ward

[Jason Ward]

5 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Jason,

You have just outlined one of the most unique and interesting JFK Conspiracy Theories I have ever read in 25 years of reading JFK CT literature.   

Furthermore, you have constructed it on the basis of WC evidence and sworn testimony.   I conclude that this line of thinking merits further digging -- in exactly the same spot were are currently digging.   This gold mine is not exhausted.

All best,
--Paul

Hi Paul,

I'm not here to sell or defend a CT so if the possibility that Fritz's timeframe is ~15 minutes earlier than he lets on sounds stupid, fine, let's move on.   However, perhaps you already realize that Mike Robinson's testimony as quoted by Walt Brown's book Treachery in Dallas provides an implied back channel for Fritz to learn of Tippit's death before the citizen calls on Tippit's radio?   If Mike Robinson is correct, Fritz et al. learn of the Tippit shooting substantially before the rest of the world.....right?

 

Jason

[Paul Trejo]

9 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Hi Paul,

I'm not here to sell or defend a CT so if the possibility that Fritz's timeframe is ~15 minutes earlier than he lets on sounds stupid, fine, let's move on.   However, perhaps you already realize that Mike Robinson's testimony as quoted by Walt Brown's book Treachery in Dallas provides an implied back channel for Fritz to learn of Tippit's death before the citizen calls on Tippit's radio?   If Mike Robinson is correct, Fritz et al. learn of the Tippit shooting substantially before the rest of the world.....right?

Jason

Hi Jason,

I agree, so let me bring the ordinary CIA-did-it CTer up-to-date.   Mike Robinson -- then 14 years old -- said that he and his pals rode their bikes to the Dallas Police HQ to see the chaos with their own eyes.  They had actually known JD Tippit, and (IIRC) Mike Robinson's dad was a Dallas cop, so these boys were curious.

Dallas Police HQ was just packed with Dallas Police, Deputies, newspaper reporters and cameramen from around the world.   Mike Robinson went to the basement to use the men's room there, and went into a toilet stall.   Thinking he was not supposed to be there -- when two cops entered, he lifted his feet onto the toilet, so that his feet would not be visible, and he would not be seen.  He remained very quiet.

While sitting there, claims Mike, he heard the two cops bickering, and then one of the cops yelled -- "You were supposed to shoot Oswald!  Why the hell did you shoot Tippit?!"   Mike knew he wasn't supposed to hear that.   He waited until the two cops left, and another minute afterwards, to ensure they went away.   Yet Mike could never forget those voices he heard, or those words spoken.

After a minute, Mike left the bathroom, yet right outside the door he heard the same two voices bickering -- and he briefly looked up and saw the face of one of the cops staring at him with looks that could kill.   He swears to this day that the cop was Roscoe White.

So -- that's the story.   There's nothing more to it.   What confounds CTers to this day is that during the 1990's, Roscoe's son, Ricky White, told Gary Mack that his father had confessed to being a shooter at JFK and had also killed JD Tippit.   

FURTHERMORE, Ricky's mother, Geneva White, produced a version of Lee Harvey Oswald's "Backyard Photograph" (BYP) that nobody else had before seen in US history.   This BYP is material evidence of some connection between Roscoe White and Lee Harvey Oswald.

FURTHERMORE -- also during the 1990's, photographer Jack White (a late, stellar member of this Forum) provided some material evidence that the chin, neck, shoulders, lumpy right wrist and backward stance in the BYP all belong to Roscoe White -- with a photo of the head of Lee Harvey Oswald simply pasted onto it.   Jack White found this evidence in all versions of the Oswald BYP known to US History.

So -- there's the weird connection.   What do Roscoe White and JD Tippit have to do with Lee Harvey Oswald?   What role did Roscoe White and JD Tippit play in any alleged JFK plot within the Dallas Police Department?   These are urgent questions to sort out.

Extending your argument further, Jason, we might venture a hypothesis -- that Roscoe White and JD Tippit were known to Captain Will Fritz and Sheriff Bill Decker (and likely also to DPD Chief Jesse Curry) to be part of a JFK subplot -- the Oak Cliff project to kill Lee Harvey Oswald in the street.

Since the Dallas Police already had Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle (which Oswald was tricked into handing over to them outside the TSBD building that very morning, said Gerry Patrick Hemming to A.J. Weberman) and since Oswald was already thoroughly sheep-dipped in New Orleans and Mexico City earlier in 1963, there was no need for Oswald anymore.

By the way -- we have two more connections to solidify -- not now, but eventually -- namely: (1) Jeff Caufield's placing of JD Tippit at Austin's BBQ with General Walker on most weekends of 1962-1963; and (2) Ron Lewis's placing of Roscoe White in New Orleans with Guy Banister during the summer of 1963.

In my CT, all of these connections in the Dallas Police, the Dallas Sheriff's office (as well as all the suspects named by Jim Garrison and Joan Mellen) will come to an apex in the Dallas Radical Right, with Ex-General Edwin Walker as its leader.   It may be worthwhile to take another glance at this Newsweek cover from December, 1961:

http://www.pet880.com/images/19611204_Newsweek_Cover.JPG

As well as this video on YouTube, which was taken around the same time period:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYyONwsHqbw

As well as this photograph from October 7, 1962, showing General Walker at Love Field, returning to Dallas from the Missouri insane asylum to which JFK and RFK sent him after the deadly Ole Miss racial riots of September 30, 1962.   Notice in this photo that Walker's followers bandy a Confederate Flag, and promote Walker for US President in 1964.   Also notice the soot on Walker's shoulder -- that was likely from tear gas stains from the Ole Miss riots (where Robert Alan Surrey was always at his side).  This was the same suit that Walker wore at Ole Miss.

http://www.pet880.com/images/19621007_Walker_returns_to_Dallas.jpg

All best,
--Paul

Edited April 15, 2018 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Jason Ward]

3 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

You were supposed to shoot Oswald!  Why the hell did you shoot Tippit?!

Hi Paul,

I don't see any realistic explanation for the hypothesis that Roscoe White shot Tippit other than that he was ordered to do so by the ringleader(s) of the JFK assassination, do you?

It's not plausible to think it could be either an accident or a case of White acting on his own initiative, is it?   I mean White is an order-taker. If he shot a cop it's only because someone he extremely trusts to protect him told him to shoot a cop, IMO.   Only police leadership could offer that kind of protection, don't you think ? 

Assuming the teenage boy Mike Robinson understood the conversation at the time and retold it accurately decades later, this implies duplicity within the layers of the conspiracy, does it not?   If Roscoe White would only shoot Tippit under orders to shoot Tippit ---but--- other officers involved in the conspiracy expected Roscoe White to shoot Oswald....then the command layer is manipulating the operational layer with a sudden surprise dead cop instead of a dead Oswald.   Right?

 In any case I think the weight of evidence we've discussed in the recent posts of this thread point towards the possibility that action at the TSBD was moving with foreknowledge of an Oak Cliff shooting - foreknowledge they later sloppily tried to hide by moving events closer to the 1:18 broadcast of Tippit's murder when testifying for the WC.

NOW, at about 1pm on 22NOV63, who's murder is next in the planned lineup: Tippit's or Oswald's?   Both are not long for this world, and it's plausible both must die.

... or, dare we even think it, are both slated to die that very day very close to each other in Oak Cliff?   What are the true implications of Robinson's claim that White was berated for shooting Tiipit instead of Oswald???

 

Jason

Edited April 15, 2018 by Jason Ward

[Jason Ward]

15 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

While sitting there, claims Mike, he heard the two cops bickering, and then one of the cops yelled -- "You were supposed to shoot Oswald!  Why the hell did you shoot Tippit?!"   Mike knew he wasn't supposed to hear that.   He waited until the two cops left, and another minute afterwards, to ensure they went away.   Yet Mike could never forget those voices he heard, or those words spoken.

After a minute, Mike left the bathroom, yet right outside the door he heard the same two voices bickering -- and he briefly looked up and saw the face of one of the cops staring at him with looks that could kill.   He swears to this day that the cop was Roscoe White.

So -- that's the story.   There's nothing more to it.   What confounds CTers to this day is that during the 1990's, Roscoe's son, Ricky White, told Gary Mack that his father had confessed to being a shooter at JFK and had also killed JD Tippit. 

Hi Paul,

1. The big problem here is Roscoe White's son and wife.  This Texas Monthly article of 1990 gives a readable insight.   Roscoe White's son is accused of manufacturing at least some evidence.

http://web.archive.org/web/20030131180606/http://www.texasmonthly.com/archive/mandarin/mandarin.1.html

2. This Roscoe White scenario seems to fold into Mike Robinson's report of an overheard conversation at DPD.   This is Jack White writing in The Third Decade, Vol 6, No. 6, September 1990.

 

 

3. BUT has this conclusion from Dave Perry become the mainstream view of "the Roscoe White Story?"   Snippet from The Fourth Decade, Vol 4, No 1, November 1996.

 

4. However, the "Roscoe White Story" was perhaps not initiated by his son Ricky in the late 80s, but by the HSCA in the 1970s based on solid evidence:

                                    -HSCA testimony

 

5. Does all this in any way shadow the testimony of Mike Robinson?    My main concern here is around the way all this came into the public.  Robinson's memory of the conversation he overheard at DPD where Roscoe White is castigated for shooting Tippit instead of Oswald does not emerge, AFAIK, until after Roscoe White's son is making waves with the likes of the Texas Monthly article above.   Walt Thomas discovers Robinson, IIRC, floating around the publicity given the 30th anniversary of the assassination in 1993.   

6. As you point, out, there is nevertheless strong evidence of some hidden relationship between Roscoe White and the Oswald-as-patsy conspiracy.  As discussed in the above HSCA testimony, in 1978 a totally new photo of Oswald-posing-as-violent-communist in the backyard of his Neely St apartment comes to light.  Both Roscoe White's widow and retired DPD officer Stovall are found with this identical never-before-seen backyard photo of Oswald, different from the Life magazine cover.  Why on earth would Roscoe White end up with an unseen version of these famous photos?

 

====+++===+++===

So, I've spent the last 48 hours reviewing the issue of Mike Robinson, Tippit, and White.   I think I've decided to leave it as an unanswered question.  In any case, perhaps thinking through the "SCENARIO PUZZLE PIECES" posted above may be useful in marshaling other evidence towards a viable conclusion.  Or, this may be an entirely pointless detour.

 

 

Jason

DPD Officer Roscoe White: Why does he have a unique, unpublished version of Oswald's backyard photo among his possessions?

---HSCA mugbook

Edited April 15, 2018 by Jason Ward

[Paul Trejo]

On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 1:31 AM, Jason Ward said:

Hi Paul,

I don't see any realistic explanation for the hypothesis that Roscoe White shot Tippit other than that he was ordered to do so by the ringleader(s) of the JFK assassination, do you?

It's not plausible to think it could be either an accident or a case of White acting on his own initiative, is it?   I mean White is an order-taker. If he shot a cop it's only because someone he extremely trusts to protect him told him to shoot a cop, IMO.   Only police leadership could offer that kind of protection, don't you think ? 

Assuming the teenage boy Mike Robinson understood the conversation at the time and retold it accurately decades later, this implies duplicity within the layers of the conspiracy, does it not?   If Roscoe White would only shoot Tippit under orders to shoot Tippit ---but--- other officers involved in the conspiracy expected Roscoe White to shoot Oswald....then the command layer is manipulating the operational layer with a sudden surprise dead cop instead of a dead Oswald.   Right?

 In any case I think the weight of evidence we've discussed in the recent posts of this thread point towards the possibility that action at the TSBD was moving with foreknowledge of an Oak Cliff shooting - foreknowledge they later sloppily tried to hide by moving events closer to the 1:18 broadcast of Tippit's murder when testifying for the WC.

NOW, at about 1pm on 22NOV63, who's murder is next in the planned lineup: Tippit's or Oswald's?   Both are not long for this world, and it's plausible both must die.

... or, dare we even think it, are both slated to die that very day very close to each other in Oak Cliff?   What are the true implications of Robinson's claim that White was berated for shooting Tiipit instead of Oswald???

Jason

Hi Jason,

Thanks for posting the 8-step theory by Jack White about how Roscoe White could have killed JD Tippit.   His account is close to my CT, but there are significant divergences.    Here are my own eight steps:

1.  I agree that Roscoe White and JD Tippit are the two cops who came to the rooming house where Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) was staying, and beeped the horn, twice, as heard and testified by Earlene Roberts.

2. I don't believe that LHO was a shooter at JFK, so I don't believe that he needed an airplane to get out of Dallas.   I discount that angle.  LHO knew he was a small player on a bigger team.

3.  It seems to me that LHO joined Tippit and White down the street someplace -- i.e. on the way to the Texas Theater.    Roscoe White would not need to pull over just to change his shirt.   

4.   However, once inside TIppit's car, there was some sort of a fight.   Roscoe White was not assigned to shoot Tippit -- they were both assigned to shoot Oswald, and back each other up.  However, Tippit somehow got out of control.   My speculative guess is that Tippit was Badgeman (based on photographic theory) and that Tippit went sort of manic, bragging and boasting about being the man who shot JFK, and that he had to tell the whole world, he was so proud!  Tippit then told LHO he was going to die, next, and LHO exited the car, Tippit drew his gun, LHO outdrew him, and shot Tippit -- but not fatally -- and LHO ran like hell. 

5.   Roscoe White, recognizing that Tippit was ready to blab everything to the world, felt he had to shoot Tippit -- in the head -- in the interest of the whole plot. 

6.  Roscoe White also fled the scene, to avoid witnesses.  Knowing LHO fled to the Texas Theater (the planned meeting spot), Roscoe walked there, and placed a public phone call to the Dallas Police, telling them to go to the Texas Theater.   On this point I also agree with Jack White.

7.   I don't believe that Roscoe White pointed out Lee Harvey Oswald -- it was the Theater manager, I believe.   However, Roscoe White did join his Dallas cop pals at the Texas Theater, and they drove him back to DPD HQ.

8.  In no way was Jack Ruby the plot coordinator.  Instead, when DPD Chief Jesse Curry realized that the subplot to shoot-LHO-in-the-street had failed, he had to find a backup hit-man in a hurry.   He put pressure on his cops to put pressure on Jack Ruby -- who owed them some favors.   Jack didn't want to do it, but they put on that old high-school chum pressure, and virtually promised Jack that he would be a hero if he did it.  So, Jack Ruby killed LHO on his 2nd try.

This, to me, is a more realistic scenario.   I admit that it is largely guess-work, but notice how closely it fits with Jack White's theory -- without even trying. 

Also -- notice how it makes sense of Earlene Roberts' testimony, and also various eye-witnesses of LHO rushing to the Texas Theater on foot.  Also, it makes sense of the 14-year old Mike Robinson's overhearing of Roscoe White's "confession."   It also validates Seth Kantor's opinion of Jack Ruby (1971).

Also -- I believe 90% of what Ricky White reports.   The BYP that his family had is good evidence, but Jack White's photographic discovery of Roscoe White's chin, neck, shoulders, lumpy right wrist and back-leaning stance, is stronger evidence, IMHO.  

EXPLAINING THE BYP:

How do I explain Jack White's identification of Roscoe White in the BYP?   I say that LHO was a CIA-wannabe ever since he got back from the USSR.   Because he was young and naive, he believed George De Mohrenschildt was a CIA agent (and George did not deny it) and since George loudly expressed his passionate hatred for General Walker, LHO thought he would get in good with the CIA if he assassinated General Walker.  

LHO met Roscoe White in some US Marines context in Dallas -- both having served at Atsugi during the same year -- and LHO convinced Roscoe that LHO was soon getting a job in the CIA, and when he got it, he would help Roscoe get into the CIA as well.   All LHO needed was a Fake Photograph with Plausible Denial, to show he had the "right stuff" to be a double-agent.   Roscoe -- also naive -- agreed to these terms, and he helped LHO create the BYP at the Neeley Street address (wearing black clothes) and LHO's access to high-tech camera equipment at the Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall company.   LHO lied to Marina, used Roscoe's black clothes, and she took one photograph.  LHO would use that one for the face, to paste onto the others he'd made with Roscoe.   This way, Marina would always be deceived about the BYP, and LHO would always have Plausible Deniability.

After LHO tried to shoot General Walker, however, Roscoe White felt like an idiot, and thought of LHO as an idiot.

As Ron Lewis claimed (FLASHBACK, 1993) LHO was then "adopted" by Guy Banister and David Ferrie in New Orleans, who knew about the Walker shooting, were good friends with Walker, and so blackmailed LHO into playing ball after that.  Roscoe White was willing to work with LHO later in 1963, on that basis only.

OTHERWISE -- (given my acceptance of the WC testimony of Marina Oswald, Ruth Paine and all WC testimony except for Dallas Officials and all the alleged "LHO sightings" which were always cases of mistaken identity) it is next to impossible to explain how Geneva White had a unique copy of the BYP, and why Jack White said that Roscoe White was the body double.

All best,
--Paul

Edited April 16, 2018 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Jason Ward]

Hi Paul,

Ok, we have taken a brief look at how the Tippit murder may play into the master timeline of events on 22NOV63.   

IMO testimony suggests that several events at the TSBD happened about 15 minutes earlier than Fritz wants us to believe. 

For instance, Deputy Mooney testifies to discovering the sniper's nest at or before 1pm - yet - there is a concerted effort elsewhere to officially place this event at 1:12.   All the cops are nearly unanimous in testimony that the sequence was very quick as between discovering spent shell casings, then the rifle, then hearing of Tippit's murder.   

The Dallas radio transcript has the first citywide broadcast of Tippit's murder at 1:18.  I see a retroactive effort to use this as a concrete timestamp with which the cops retroactively must reconstruct the purported time of events.   In short we can't have Mooney finding evidence before 1 because this would mean they hear of Tippit's death at around 1, which in turn would mean they hear of Tippit's death through a conduit other than the standard police radio.   

So, they officially move everything closer to the 1:18 announcement of Tippit's death.  I suggest this is an effort to hide the truth, which in turn is evidence of a criminal state of mind.   Did Fritz and the TSBD cops learn of Tippit's death earlier than everyone else?   Did Roscoe White or other sources make Fritz aware of Tippit before the official version of events which has a citizen alerting DPD to the murder on Tippit's own radio???

 

On 4/11/2018 at 9:15 AM, Paul Trejo said:

I'd like to linger on his WC testimony of Captain Will Fritz

Ok, I think I'll compare Fritz to a couple more sources and I still want to concentrate on the first couple hours after gunfire for now.   Later, it will be interesting to bring in some additional testimony from the likes of Hosty, Holmes and Bookhout around the final hours of Oswald's life.

I have to tell everyone that Mary Ferrell's chronologies are a priceless resource and IMO more valuable than any conspiracy book for those who prefer to weigh the raw evidence themselves.   The chronologies are freely available here:

https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Featured_Mary_Ferrell_Chronologies.html?search=chronologies

Although Mary Ferrell's chronologies are wonderfully "just the facts" in format; an occasional hidden gem is found in Mary's notes.   Perhaps most pertinent to our current look at the timeline in testimony versus radio logs is this handwritten hint from Mary to all future researchers:

INDEED!   Why wasn't the sniper's nest reached before 1:10pm?

Brennan and half a dozen other witnesses are almost immediately pinpointing a high floor of the TSBD as the location of a man firing a rile.   Why do the police tell us they don't reach the sniper's nest until 40 minutes after the gunfire?

I've said above that I wonder if Mooney and others are sloppily trying to comply with a Fritz-ordered effort to delay the time evidence is discovered when giving official testimony - in order to line up with the radio announcement of Tippit's murder.  But, even if this test hypothesis is wrong and there is no effort to hide the true time evidence is discovered, don't we just have to join Mary Ferrell and look at the plain testimony of witnesses to ask WHAT WAS HAPPENING ON THE 6TH FLOOR FOR THE FIRST HALF HOUR+ AFTER THE ASSASSINATION????

(ok, let's quit beating around the bush here - perhaps there is no true time when the evidence is discovered, because everything is planted evidence?   Should we ask if the whole timeline of the cops inside the TSBD is purely artificial?)

Doesn't evidence indicate the police should be finding the sniper's nest at more like 12:45 or earlier?  Again Mary Ferrell:

Shouldn't Mooeny be finding the sniper's nest shortly after Victoria Adams sees him? 

 

«««Jason's Test Hypothesis»»»™    Whoever Mooney sees coming down the stairs plants the shells and arranges the rifle.   Mooney is a useful idiot whose role is to discover the fabricated crime scene?

 

 

SOURCES:

1. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=40392#relPageId=187&tab=page

2. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=40392#relPageId=189&tab=page

 

 

Edited April 16, 2018 by Jason Ward

[Paul Trejo]

Jason, 

Your reference to your hypothesis as a hypothesis is useful here.

Although I like where you're going with this data, you keep us aware that we're slipping into speculation.  Although this speculation is rare, some researchers shown at Mary Ferrell's website did note it in the past.  (Still, nobody until now seems to have connected it with a Dallas-did-it CT.)

Anyway, I agree to keep my finger here to return to it later.  For now, since we have nothing more solid than the Dallas Police Radio Log, I propose to stick with it as far as possible, and give it the benefit of the doubt until we have material evidence of Log tampering.

The problem I see now is that Lieutenant Day's meticulous timeline clashes with the Police Radio Log.  He claims the dispatcher sent the order to take crime lab equipment to the TSBD came at 12:58 and he and Studebaker left HQ "straight up" at 1pm.

Yet we see no Dallas Police Radio Log for any instruction to Lt. Day.

If, however, the Dallas Police Radio Log was tampered with on the night of 11/22/1963, how could anybody PROVE that?    So -- I propose to resist the temptation to argue for Log tampering (because there is no end to such a speculation) and to attribute all discrepancies as far as possible to "mistakes."   Then, only the most egregious "mistakes" will fall out.

All best,
--Paul

Edited April 16, 2018 by Paul Trejo
clarity

[Paul Trejo]

4 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Hi Paul,

<snip>

Ok, I think I'll compare Fritz to a couple more sources and I still want to concentrate on the first couple hours after gunfire for now.   Later, it will be interesting to bring in some additional testimony from the likes of Hosty, Holmes and Bookhout around the final hours of Oswald's life.

<snip>

Shouldn't Mooney be finding the sniper's nest shortly after Victoria Adams sees him? 

«««Jason's Test Hypothesis»»»™    Whoever Mooney sees coming down the stairs plants the shells and arranges the rifle.   Mooney is a useful idiot whose role is to discover the fabricated crime scene?

Hi Jason,

I want to respond to these three points:

(1) I strongly agree to bring in the WC testimony of Dallas FBI agents James Hosty and Bookhout, and Dallas Postal Inspector Harry Holmes in connection with the WC testimony of Captain Will Fritz, because they all saw LHO during his final hour at DPD HQ.   I would add Dallas Secret Service agent Forrest Sorrels to that number.

(2) The problem I have with the WC testimony of Victoria Adams is that her memory of the TIMING of events in the 20 minutes after the JFK shooting is completely unreliable, IMHO.

(3) Even if those two Deputies coming down the stairs of the TSBD as Luke Mooney was going up, were the very ones who planted Oswald's rifle and shells -- I still would not absolve Luke Mooney from plotting with them.   Why does he dare to mention them?  Because he's not a very accomplished L-I-A-R -- probably.  Possibly his guilt led him to point out OTHER Dallas Deputies in the TSBD plot.  

All best,
--Paul

Edited April 16, 2018 by Paul Trejo

[Jason Ward]

9 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

The problem I see now is that Lieutenant Day's meticulous timeline clashes with the Police Radio Log.  He claims the dispatcher sent the order to take crime lab equipment to the TSBD came at 12:58 and he and Studebaker left HQ "straight up" at 1pm.

I might suggest Day is accurate, because why would they call the "crime lab" except in a situation where they needed the "crime lab," which to me indicates they found evidence at about 12:58 or earlier, consistent with Luke Mooney's testimony - but inconsistent with Capt Fritz and the published radio transcript.

<<<>>><<<>>>

I've spent the last 24 hours looking for incongruities in the police testimony with a focus on Captain Fritz or other police leaders (i.e. Decker, Sawyer, Curry) in particular.  I've got a long list of issues to double check and possibly post, but for the moment this claim from Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry is what I'd like to highlight:

 

• Why is Curry so certain of this detailed and important process when he wasn't even there?
• Why does Sawyer fail to mention any search of automobiles or license plate checks?
• Why is there no DPD written record of license plates checked or people whose car was parked in the lot?
• Isn't Curry suggesting that the order to seal the TSBD came from Lumpkin at 1:00 or later?

Understanding the activity around the triple underpass, the railroad tracks, and adjacent parking lot is perhaps a critical and obvious step in processing the crime scene.   Why is the record almost completely empty of any efforts in this area?

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

(2) The problem I have with the WC testimony of Victoria Adams is that her memory of the TIMING of events in the 20 minutes after the JFK shooting is completely unreliable, IMHO.

Ok.

 

Edited April 16, 2018 by Jason Ward

[Jason Ward]

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

I would add Dallas Secret Service agent Forrest Sorrels to that number

 

Hi Paul,

I am still probing the timeline of Fritz and the other officers we've looked at so far in search of conflicting testimony.   I read Secret Service Agent Forest Sorrels testimony looking for data points to compare with the others at the TSBD.    In a few places, Sorrels offers the most provocative testimony of all the law enforcement officers that day.

---===---===---===---

The Sheriff's deputies who arrive at the TSBD do so -they testify- because of some vague hearsay from other officers suggesting they go there after visiting the railroad tracks area.  Most DPD officers hear a 1234/1235 radio call pinpointing the TSBD as the source of gunfire.    

But...

1. Secret Service chief Forest Sorrels beelines for the TSBD after dropping off a bloody president and governor at Parkland not because he hears about it on the radio.   Out of everyone visibly present in Dealey Plaza whom Sorrels has seen up close while riding ahead of JFK in the motorcade, Sorrels independently of all others that day isolates the TSBD as the place with witnesses that need his priority attention.   

 

 

2. Sorrels testifies that it takes him a total of 20 minutes to travel from Dealey Plaza at the time of the first gunshot, drop off the bloody victims at Parkland, and return to Dealey Plaza entering the TSBD via an unguarded loading dock.   He fudges a little and says this may have taken 25 minutes at the most.

 

3. Sorrels makes a point to get a list of TSBD employees - even though he testifies to having no idea that the TSBD is a location of criminal activity:

 

 

CONCERNS:

1. AFAIK, the US Secret Service has no mandate to investigate assassinations, their role on November 22, 1963 is only to protect the president - so why doesn't Sorrels continue protecting the president or presumptive president at Parkland?  Why does he speed back to the TSBD under lights and sirens?  
2. Is the explanation for why Sorrels goes to the TSBD after dropping off his bloody protectee at Parkland in keeping with either his duty or the reasonable assumptions he could have made at the time?  Why does he go to one and only one building instead of trying to locate witnesses a few feet from the shooting on the sidewalk, in the grass, on the overpass, etc.?
3. Why does Sorrels enter the TSBD through the loading dock?
4. Is the explanation for why Sorrels demands a list of TSBD employees reasonable - that is, is it reasonable to demand a list of TSBD employees BEFORE there is any thought that the TSBD was used to launch gunfire?
5. Is the TSBD loading dock ever sealed at all?   Sorrels testifies that at 12:50 to 12:55 it is open to all without challenge.  
6. Given a reasonable 20-25 minute roundtrip time between Dealey Plaza, Parkland, and back to Dealey Plaza again, I might suggest we stipulate that the TSBD is sealed no earlier than 12:50, even though there's little evidence in the police testimony I've seen that the TSBD loading dock is ever sealed.
7. Where is the film of the passing motorcade taken from another building that Inspector Sawyer says was investigated/obtained by Sorrels?  Sorrels never mentions this film in WC testimony (see Sawyer's testimony below).

Edited April 16, 2018 by Jason Ward

[Paul Trejo]

Jason,

Your feedback about Forrest Sorrels is amazing.

He is a prime suspect.

Here is my addition: Sorrels sped to the TSBD specifically to meet with high school student Amos Euins.

Euins had been an eye-witness to a rifle firing from one of the top SE floors of the TSBD, and Euins had to be arrested and confused with expertise.

All best,
--Paul

Edited April 18, 2018 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

On 4/16/2018 at 12:03 PM, Jason Ward said:

...I've spent the last 24 hours looking for incongruities in the police testimony with a focus on Captain Fritz or other police leaders (i.e. Decker, Sawyer, Curry) in particular.  I've got a long list of issues to double check and possibly post, but for the moment this claim from Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry is what I'd like to highlight

• Why is Curry so certain of this detailed and important process when he wasn't even there?
• Why does Sawyer fail to mention any search of automobiles or license plate checks?
• Why is there no DPD written record of license plates checked or people whose car was parked in the lot?
• Isn't Curry suggesting that the order to seal the TSBD came from Lumpkin at 1:00 or later?

Jason,

Great analysis of the WC testimony of Jesse Curry.  

Curry feels he can speak with authority about all the activities of the Dallas Police because he was the Chief.

He read or heard all of the reports from his men.  He was the highest authority in the DPD just as Bill Decker was the highest authority in the Dallas Sheriff's Department.

The only Dallas Policeman to publish a book about the JFK Assassination was Jesse Curry.  It is mainly a printout of the Dallas Police Radio Log, with commentary by Chief Jesse Curry.

My point is that even though Jesse Curry was almost entirely at Parkland Hospital with LBJ, and on AF1 with LBJ during the entire Oswald crisis, he considered himself an expert on whatever his men did.

It is indeed bizarre that he would mention searches of license plates and automobile checks when other ranking officers didn't.   However, some officers did.  For example, Deputy Roger Craig (who reported to Sheriff Decker) says that he saw a lady in a car leaving the parking lot behind the picket fence of the Grassy Knoll two minutes after the JFK shooting -- and he refused to let her pass.  He detained her, despite her protests, and then he turned her over to a Dallas policeman, with instructions not to let her pass.

We never heard about her again -- nor from any Dallas policeman who detained her.

You ask a great question, Jason, when you demand to see a written record of license plates checked from cars behind the picket fence of the Grassy Knoll.  That parking lot had only one exit, which was the same as the entrance, and only those with a lock for the key could enter.  It was almost exclusively for Officers of County Jail.

Finally -- you are absolutely correct that Jesse Curry gives the most generous leeway for the sealing of the TSBD than any other witness -- a half-hour after the JFK shots!  

Even after high-school student Amos Euins told Dallas Police within a couple minutes of the JFK shots at 12:30pm, that he saw a man stick a rifle out a top floor of the TSBD, and he saw a shot blast -- the TSBD was still not sealed off until 1pm, according to Curry.

Amos Euins saw no face, but he saw a man with a rifle and a shot.  Next thing he knew after he told Dallas Police, he was in the custody of Dallas Secret Service agent Forrest Sorrels and then detained at Dallas County Jail until 6pm.

All best,
--Paul

Edited April 17, 2018 by Paul Trejo
Clarity

[Jason Ward]

On 4/16/2018 at 9:54 AM, Paul Trejo said:

Even if those two Deputies coming down the stairs of the TSBD as Luke Mooney was going up, were the very ones who planted Oswald's rifle and shells -- I still would not absolve Luke Mooney from plotting with them.  

 

Hi Paul,

That the "sniper's nest" was tampered with some time after the shots were fired is IMO strongly supported by evidence:

1. DPD CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATOR LT. DAY SAYS HIS CRIME SCENE PHOTOS DO NOT "JIBE" WITH PHOTOS TAKEN OF THE TSBD IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE SHOTS:

 

 

2. DPD CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATOR LT DAY ALL BUT ADMITS THAT EVIDENCE WAS MOVED PRIOR TO HIS ARRIVAL AND PRIOR TO OFFICIAL CRIME SCENE PHOTOGRAPHS

 

3.CE 716 - Lt. Day's official sniper's nest crime scene photo including 3 empty shells; but there is only 1 box towards the top of the photo (towards the western edge of the window)

 

 

4. CE 482 - exterior shot of the TSBD taken before Lt Day's arrival - the arrow points to a stacked group of boxes NOT present when Lt Day took crime scene photos:

 

5. Press cameraman Tom Alyea was also on the 6th floor before the official crime scene photos made by Lt. Day.   He says:

 

 

• Is this enough evidence to convince us that the "sniper's nest" on the 6th floor was manipulated by Captain Fritz and that he perjured himself by claiming no one touched the evidence until photographed?
• If the Warren Commission is a cohesive part of the assassination and cover up, why do they blindside Lt day by showing him CE 482 for the first time at his WC deposition, which forces him to admit that evidence tampering is the only explanation for the difference between CE 482 & CE 716?

 

 

SOURCES

1-4: Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits

5: Dr Tony Austin, The Dealey Plaza Echo, Vol 13, Iss 3, November 2009

 

 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2018 by Jason Ward