Who changed the motorcade route?

[Rick McTague]

48 minutes ago, David Lifton said:

Rick:  Quick answers without detail;  will return and expand later, when time permits:

epileptic seizure: completely genuine.

SS contrast between Kellerman and agents guarding LBJ...: agreed.  Absurdly different.

Umbrella man: genuine.Not part of any plot.

DC man: don't know.

Yellow painted curb: extraordinarily important.

The rest (man, woman etc):  no opinion.

Later. . . DSL

 

 

David,

Just to provide clarity on my vague mention of a man and a woman casually walking east on Elm, I found it here at 1:00 into the Hughes film, a woman in a brown coat, followed by a man in a suit with a hat, both walking away from the commotion and seemingly the only ones not engaged with the rest of the crowd, rushing towards the grassy knoll.  They have always seemed really odd, out of place and suspicious.  Anyone else have any thoughts on these two, or are they just a couple more anomalies, strange behavior by strange people in and around DP that day?

Thanks

Rick

[David Von Pein]

16 hours ago, David Lifton said:

Please review what you have posted and modify (or remove) all this stuff which miss-states [sic] my position and belief...

Ten-Four.

Previous post removed. (And removed from my website too.)

Edited June 4, 2018 by David Von Pein

[James DiEugenio]

That was a good catch Rick.  

I have no idea if it means anything but I do not think anyone ever pointed it out before.

BTW, as far as I am concerned, I do not see how anyone can say for sure that the Umbrella episode was not part of anything.

I mean, do we even know who the Latin looking guy was?  And if we do not, then how can anyone say for sure. 

[David Lifton]

48 minutes ago, Rich Pope said:

First, I'll set-aside your poor spelling and grammar mistakes.  I understand typing skills don't equate to intelligence.

Secondly, if you had read his book, you will see Roffman shows several changes to the parade route even making the point, "Neither Oswald nor any Dallas resident could have known the exact motorcade route, for conflicting accounts were published."

I'll take his expertise over yours any day of the week.

In addition, Marina Oswald wrote a narrative which indicated her husband wasn't even interested in President Kennedy's visit to Dallas.  Being his wife, I'll take her point of view over yours any day of the week as well.

Your verbal masturbation in the last post was long-winded and easily refuted.  

 

Rich:

The parade route was published on Tuesday, November 19th; and thousands lined the published route.  So I don't understand why Roffman would state that "Neither Oswald nor any Dallas  resident could have known the exact motorcade route, for conflicting accounts were published."  The multiple thousands who lined the route (including the short distance--on Houston--between Main and Elm) show that this statement is incorrect. There was no mystery, after Tuesday evening, November 19th, what the Dallas motorcade route was.

Its true that in her narrative (Commission Exhibit 994) Marina stated that the night before (Thursday night, 11/21) when LHO was back at the Paine residence, she brought up the fact that JFK would be visiting Dallas the next day, "and asked how I could see him--on television of course-- he answered that he did not know."  (CE 994, p.42). But. . .so what?  IMHO: Oswald simply did not want to let his wife know that JFK would be passing directly in front of the building where he worked.  I don't find that to be particular sinister.  (Do you?)

But let's consider the alternative. . . :

Do you really believe that Lee Oswald, who we know (from testimony) read both Dallas newspapers (and loved to compare them) --and was intensely interested in all things political--did not know that JFK was visiting Dallas?  Or that the planned parade would be coming down Main Street and passing in front of the building where he worked? Even though LHO was extremely interested in current affairs, read two newspapers, and liked President Kennedy?  

If so, then I've got to ask: On what planet are you living? 

Why not share your ideas, and your profound wisdom, right here on this forum, because it would be interesting to know just what you believe LHO's "state of mind" was as JFK's motorcade left Love Field and headed towards the downtown area.  

Do you think he was thinking, "Gee, I'd better fill these book orders quickly, so I'll get my assigned work done, and have a chance to watch the president?"  

Or. . do you think he was getting prepared to shoot the President?

Or do you think he was somehow unaware of what was going on, and just going about his business, filling book orders, and wondering, "Gee, I wonder why the building is so empty?  And why are all those crowds gathering outside, on Houston Street?"  

Or maybe he was thinking, "Oh, now I realize why Marina asked me that question last night!  Little did I realize how well informed she was!"

Please do share your expertise.  Inquiring minds want to know!

DSL

6/4/2018 - 7 PM PDT

[Michael Clark]

I keep thinking.of how little LHO meant to the plot. I am of the mind that JFK was going to run into a hit that day, regardless of whether LHO showed up to work, whether the shooters could get a shot off or whatever other circumstances might have came-about that day. There were in all likelihood several back up plans in place, including taking out AF1 if all else failed. LHO is the mouse that has been made into a mountain; and so many continue to probe and dissect that little dead mouse while gargantuan monsters are yet to be identified.

[James DiEugenio]

I don't think so Michael.

I mean in each plot that we know a lot about, there seems to have been a designated patsy. The others being Lopez and Vallee in Tampa and Chicago. If you have not read Paul Bleau's interesting article on this subject, here is the link:

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-three-failed-plots-to-kill-jfk-the-historians-guide-on-how-to-research-his-assassination

Please pay attention to the chart at the end.

Let me add this, if the FPCC ends up being a CIA shell, that chart gets to be really important and not just interesting.

What I would say, slightly differing from you is this: Kennedy was targeted for death in the fall of 1963.  The earlier attempts helped prime Dallas.  In Dallas, it all worked out very well for them.  And in many ways, Oswald was the perfect patsy.  The only thing I think went wrong with the plot as outlined  was the fact that Oswald survived the Texas Theater.  When he then attempted that call to John Hurt, it was over for him and they brought  in Ruby.

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Michael Clark said:

I keep thinking of how little LHO meant to the plot. I am of the mind that JFK was going to run into a hit that day, regardless of whether LHO showed up to work, whether the shooters could get a shot off or whatever other circumstances might have came about that day. There were in all likelihood several back-up plans in place, including taking out AF1 if all else failed.

Since every scrap of evidence leads directly into the lap (and guns) of Lee Harvey Oswald when it comes to the murders of both JFK and Officer Tippit, I cannot fathom how anyone could seriously make a comment like this --- "I keep thinking of how little LHO meant to the plot."

Un-be-liev-able!

 

Michael Clark said:

LHO is the mouse that has been made into a mountain; and so many continue to probe and dissect that little dead mouse while gargantuan monsters are yet to be identified.

No, LHO is the double-murderer* who has been turned into an "innocent patsy" thanks to the colorful imaginations possessed by thousands of conspiracy fantasists.

* And the large amount of evidence that favors Oswald's guilt in the JFK and Tippit murder cases proves that I'm right.

Edited June 5, 2018 by David Von Pein

[John Butler]

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Posted 1 hour ago

I keep thinking.of how little LHO meant to the plot. I am of the mind that JFK was going to run into a hit that day, regardless of whether LHO showed up to work, whether the shooters could get a shot off or whatever other circumstances might have came-about that day. There were in all likelihood several back up plans in place, including taking out AF1 if all else failed. LHO is the mouse that has been made into a mountain; and so many continue to probe and dissect that little dead mouse while gargantuan monsters are yet to be identified.

 

Well said Michael,

There were at least two other patsies associated with LHO, Bill Shelley and Chauncey Holt.  Or, anyone on the 6th floor flooring crew such as Billy Lovelady.  I name Bill Shelley and Chauncy Holt from what I call the 3 patsy photo of LHO, Bill Shelley, and Chauncey Holt taken on the streets of NO near the Trade Center.  Shelley was arrested but it is later claimed he wasn't.  Holt said he was scared to death thinking the boxcar he was in was going to be blown up and he would take the blame for the assassination, if you can believe Holt.

Anyway, well said Michael.  Kennedy was not going to get out of Dealey Plaza alive and the rewrite of history would begin shortly there after.

[Michael Clark]

I am thinking it is possible that LHO was part of the operation. Not as a patsy. Not even necessarily as a willing conspirator. LHO could have been part of a plan to make Walker into a patsy if things did not go as well as they did and Kennedy had to be taken down at the Trade Mart or en route back to Love Field, and a conspiracy would have to have been obvious.

I have felt for a while, and have said so, that the other plots were all part of the plan to keep the noise-level up so high that the sound of the actual plot would be buried in it. I am entertaining the idea that this why there were two Oswalds, the activities of whom kept guys like Angleton off-balance and confused. Walker may have been trying to figure out what was going on as well and the Martin film may have been his attempt to figure out what was going on. He may have been involved with our loud mouthed, unsophisticated, brash, and husky looking LHO; perhaps as a physical intimate with him as well. Perhaps Walker would have been set-up as fall guy for one of the back-up plots in Dallas, he would not even have to be there; he could have been set up as the prime mover for some Birchers or other right wing radicals who made their attempts at Tje Trade Mart or on the trip back to Love Field. This could explain his absence from Dallas as well.

Regardless of Trejo's apparent reverence for the man, Walker was a failed military man, a godless homosexual, and did not, no matter  how much he tried or Trejo tries, fit into any camp that includes Southern Radical Racists, and he was more than expendable, he was an embarrassment.

I just keep coming back to the feeling that it had to be Dallas. It had to be that day, and it could not fail.

Whether it was war with Cuba to cover it up, Texas cessation, or a coup that turned into a skirmish that had to be suppressed by Johnson, it was going to go down because the plot was going to be detected. It was going to be found-out, and it was. Americans never really believed it.

To be sure, this is not my final analysis. This is just where I am at with regard to the motorcade. I am quite sure that they could not be sure it was going to be able to be pulled-off in Dealy Plaza, and the plot was going to be detected. This determination informs my thoughts expressed above.

 

[Paul Brancato]

43 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

I am thinking it is possible that LHO was part of the operation. Not as a patsy. Not even necessarily as a willing conspirator. LHO could have been part of a plan to make Walker into a patsy if things did not go as well as they did and Kennedy had to be taken down at the Trade Mart or en route back to Love Field, and a conspiracy would have to have been obvious.

I have felt for a while, and have said so, that the other plots were all part of the plan to keep the noise-level up so high that the sound of the actual plot would be buried in it. I am entertaining the idea that this why there were two Oswalds, the activities of whom kept guys like Angleton off-balance and confused. Walker may have been trying to figure out what was going on as well and the Martin film may have been his attempt to figure out what was going on. He may have been involved with our loud mouthed, unsophisticated, brash, and husky looking LHO; perhaps as a physical intimate with him as well. Perhaps Walker would have been set-up as fall guy for one of the back-up plots in Dallas, he would not even have to be there; he could have been set up as the prime mover for some Birchers or other right wing radicals who made their attempts at Tje Trade Mart or on the trip back to Love Field. This could explain his absence from Dallas as well.

Regardless of Trejo's apparent reverence for the man, Walker was a failed military man, a godless homosexual, and did not, no matter  how much he tried or Trejo tries, fit into any camp that includes Southern Radical Racists, and he was more than expendable, he was an embarrassment.

I just keep coming back to the feeling that it had to be Dallas. It had to be that day, and it could not fail.

Whether it was war with Cuba to cover it up, Texas cessation, or a coup that turned into a skirmish that had to be suppressed by Johnson, it was going to go down because the plot was going to be detected. It was going to be found-out, and it was. Americans never really believed it.

To be sure, this is not my final analysis. This is just where I am at with regard to the motorcade. I am quite sure that they could not be sure it was going to be able to be pulled-off in Dealy Plaza, and the plot was going to be detected. This determination informs my thoughts expressed above.

 

Is it your current opinion that JFK had to die? Was that the purpose of the plot, and if so why? If you think the plotters had Cuba on their minds, taking Castro and the Soviets out of the beachhead, a failed attempt blamed on Castro would have achieved their aims. 

[Michael Clark]

41 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Is it your current opinion that JFK had to die?

Yes

Quote

Was that the purpose of the plot, and if so why?

Many reasons. Cuba was not one of them for the highest eschelon players. It was a motive for mechanics and lower eschelon players, like Cubans and their CIA brothers. For some it was religion, racism, moralism and some just didn't like his accent. Military acquiesce came from disagreements on strategic security. And then there is money and war.

Quote

If you think the plotters had Cuba on their minds, taking Castro and the Soviets out of the beachhead, a failed attempt blamed on Castro would have achieved their aims. 

Low level players (think Hunt and Cubans), and the early though process of higher level players had Cuba on their mind ( think military and   rabid anti-communist ideologue). Later on the military (Navy) and the religious right though it better to isolate dark, catholic Spanish speakers isolated and maintain Guantanamo through isolation and antagonism. This also served to neuter the mob.

As I have said before, my theory has the convenience of, with regard to isolation of Cuba and the maintenance of Guantanamo, being what actually came to be. It also explains why Castro was never killed.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Michael Clark

[Paz Marverde]

13 hours ago, David Lifton said:

Byrd was the owner of the building, but. . . he didn't "do" anything.

Cason was (more or less) directly "on site" and was involved (as Truly's boss) in the hiring of Oswald.

DSL

You simply refuse to understand what I said and what that linkage does mean. That's all

[Paz Marverde]

18 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

As always, we await some enterprising bilingual member to translate this

Paul,

I started a translation. Could you please check if it is in an enough good English? Thanks in advance

[Ray Mitcham]

8 hours ago, Rich Pope said:

First, I'll set-aside your poor spelling and grammar mistakes.  I understand typing skills don't equate to intelligence.

Secondly, if you had read his book, you will see Roffman shows several changes to the parade route even making the point, "Neither Oswald nor any Dallas resident could have known the exact motorcade route, for conflicting accounts were published."

I'll take his expertise over yours any day of the week.

In addition, Marina Oswald wrote a narrative which indicated her husband wasn't even interested in President Kennedy's visit to Dallas.  Being his wife, I'll take her point of view over yours any day of the week as well.

Your verbal masturbation in the last post was long-winded and easily refuted.  

 

It ill becomes somebody who criticises another  poster for using bad grammar,  to then mix tenses in his own post. "Secondly, if you had read his book, you will see...." and "Your verbal masturbation in the last post was long-winded and easily refuted. " is a totally  over the top insult.

[David Von Pein]

39 minutes ago, Rich Pope said:

...based on the newspaper accounts[,] neither Oswald nor any Dallas resident could have know the exact motorcade route, for conflicting accounts were published.

Then apparently you, Rich, must think that all of the many people who gathered on both Houston Street and Elm Street prior to the motorcade arriving in Dealey Plaza --- including the likes of Mary Moorman, Jean Hill, Jim Altgens, the Willis family, Charles Brehm, Bill & Gayle Newman, Abraham Zapruder, Mary Woodward, and all of the people who elected to watch the parade from the steps of the Book Depository Building --- just got lucky and guessed correctly that the President's car was going to turn down Houston and then onto Elm. Is that correct?

The reality is, of course, that those people I mentioned above (and many more) knew where to stand along Houston and Elm Streets that day because they all knew, prior to the motorcade ever arriving in Dealey Plaza, that JFK's motorcade would be coming down those exact streets (Houston and Elm). And they knew that information because it was published--in detail--in both of the Dallas newspapers on Tuesday, November 19th, and again in the Dallas Times Herald on Thursday, November 21st (in addition to being announced on both radio and television between 11:30 AM and 12:00 noon on November 22nd).

Edited June 6, 2018 by David Von Pein