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Shirt bunching experiment (SBT)


Jake Hammond
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57 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

image.jpeg.1ac8a45cda9df5c87f8201c7e5ca9298.jpeg

This is JFK on the corner of Houston and Elm St.

Hammond cites photos taken earlier in the motorcade as relevant but regards the photos taken in Dealey Plaza as irrelevant.

Go figure...

Edited by Cliff Varnell
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9 minutes ago, Jake Hammond said:

What are you on about ?

What significance does the prior possible movements of the jacket vs the jacket and collar have to my experiment ?

Your experiment bears no relevance to JFK in the motorcade.

All you did was put a rumpled shirt on a mannequin and make up stuff about JFK's  posture.

Meanwhile, your claims about JFK's clothing are debunked by the Dealey Plaza photos.

 

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Okay, thanks for answering my questions Jake.

Clearly you believe that a 1960s era dress shirt could sort of stick to a jacket and be moved around by it. I was too young then to have taken notice. But I got my first professional job in the late 1970s and wore a suit then. My coworker was really into fashion and he  helped me pick out a Brooks Brothers suit and some 100% cotton shirts. And silk ties. Those shirts were loose like the one we see JFK wearing in the airliner. Though the shirt was loose, the jacket fit well and the shirt lay neatly on my shoulders. I just can't imagine that the shirt would be so sloppy as to bunch up the way you believe the shirts would then. I have no recollection of having to pull my shirts down to straighten them up. I was a very meticulous guy back then and would have been bothered by something like that.

I can't see how anybody could honestly say that it is a fact that Kennedy's shirt behaved that way. It really is a hypothetical assumption on your part, which is fine. But it shouldn't be portrayed as anything else. I believe that fine clothing in the 1960s and even much earlier would have performed better than what you've described. Therefore I would need to have the bunching up demonstrated to me  before I could believe it.

 

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Just now, Sandy Larsen said:

Okay, thanks for answering my questions Jake.

Clearly you believe that a 1960s era dress shirt could sort of stick to a jacket and be moved around by it. I was too young then to have taken notice. But I got my first professional job in the late 1970s and wore a suit then. My coworker was really into fashion and he  helped me pick out a Brooks Brothers suit and some 100% cotton shirts. And silk ties. Those shirts were loose like the one we see JFK wearing in the airliner. Though the shirt was loose, the jacket fit well and the shirt lay neatly on my shoulders. I just can't imagine that the shirt would be so sloppy as to bunch up the way you believe the shirts would then. I have no recollection of having to pull my shirts down to straighten them up. I was a very meticulous guy back then and would have been bothered by something like that.

I can't see how anybody could honestly say that it is a fact that Kennedy's shirt behaved that way. It really is a hypothetical assumption on your part, which is fine. But it shouldn't be portrayed as anything else. I believe that fine clothing in the 1960s and even much earlier would have performed better than what you've described. Therefore I would need to have the bunching up demonstrated to me  before I could believe it.

 

He'll never do it.

It's impossible for casual body movement to cause multiple inches of clothing to move.

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Just now, Sandy Larsen said:

Okay, thanks for answering my questions Jake.

Clearly you believe that a 1960s era dress shirt could sort of stick to a jacket and be moved around by it. I was too young then to have taken notice. But I got my first professional job in the late 1970s and wore a suit then. My coworker was really into fashion and he  helped me pick out a Brooks Brothers suit and some 100% cotton shirts. And silk ties. Those shirts were loose like the one we see JFK wearing in the airliner. Though the shirt was loose, the jacket fit well and the shirt lay neatly on my shoulders. I just can't imagine that the shirt would be so sloppy as to bunch up the way you believe the shirts would then. I have no recollection of having to pull my shirts down to straighten them up. I was a very meticulous guy back then and would have been bothered by something like that.

I can't see how anybody could honestly say that it is a fact that Kennedy's shirt behaved that way. It really is a hypothetical assumption on your part, which is fine. But it shouldn't be portrayed as anything else. I believe that fine clothing in the 1960s and even much earlier would have performed better than what you've described. Therefore I would need to have the bunching up demonstrated to me  before I could believe it.

 

Sandy, I am simply going by the fold eminating at the right shoulder and extending across, tapering , to the left shoulder. I'm no surmising anything. My educated assumption, which matches the evidence, is that exactly like in the black and white photo I posted the short has gathered and folded like the jacket, possibly more so as they are a looser fitting item.

 

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Just now, François Carlier said:

Congratulations to Jake Hammond for excellent work !
Varnell and his friends won't be pleased. But they'll find excuses and the'll want to cop out, no doubt...

So when are you going to show us the results of your own experiments?

If you could, you would, but you can't.

So you don't.

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3 minutes ago, Jake Hammond said:

Sandy, I am simply going by the fold eminating at the right shoulder and extending across, tapering , to the left shoulder. I'm no surmising anything. My educated assumption, which matches the evidence, is that exactly like in the black and white photo I posted the short has gathered and folded like the jacket, possibly more so as they are a looser fitting item.

 

What "educated assumption"?

You claim that the shirt and jacket were gathered above the top of the back and yet the jacket collar dropped into that location.

All you can do is put a rumpled shirt on a mannequin and make up stuff about JFK's posture.

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Just now, Jake Hammond said:

When he does will you thank him ad offer concise and productive debate like you have here ?

He won't.  Neither will you.  You make assumptions you can't back up, throw a rumpled shirt on a mannequin and make up stuff about JFK's posture.

Your experiment bears no relation to JFK in the motorcade.

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1 minute ago, Jake Hammond said:

My experiment shows what it shows. Nothing more. I never said it did. 

It shows nothing of relevance.

It's an elaborate form of hand waving.

JFK wasn't leaning forward as you suggest, and the fold in his jacket was a fraction of an inch.

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