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Steven

In your posts, it is difficult to figure who is saying what.

What's your source for this:

"In February 1968, the CIA prepared a report on David Ferrie that stated he was not a CIA employee, although a Office of Security file existed on him. When a synopsis of this file reached the period when David Ferrie was associated with the Cuban Revolutionary Front, the CIA deleted it."

Deleted WHAT from WHAT?

  • In February 1968, the CIA prepared a report on David Ferrie
  • [When] a synopsis of this file reached the period when David Ferrie was associated with the Cuban Revolutionary Front, the CIA deleted it."
  • source http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/weberman/nodule11.htm

(The fact that David Ferrie was associated with the Cuban Revolutionary Front was deleted from the synopsis of the 1968 CIA report. -- GAAL)

[edited in the interest of intelligibility by T. Graves]

Thanks. So I guess Weberman was the source.

Weberman is a paradox. Based on topics with which I am very familiar, I can see that he often finds unique information. But by the same token, he sometimes misstates things (and doggedly resists my attempts at correction).

BTW, if you copy and paste his info into a Word document, it becomes searchable.

Yes, Stephen Roy. Weberman does make mistakes. Lots of them.

Yes, I know that the Cuban Revolutionary Front became the Cuban Revolutionary Council and both were different from the the Cuban Student Directorate (DRE), but regardless here's one of Weberman's little mistakes from the very passage that Gaal linked us to in post # 750, this thread:

" When we interviewed BRINGUIER on February 2, 1967 he mentioned David Ferrie who appears in the February 19, 1967, article saying that David Ferrie at the time was affiliated with his (BRINGUIER'S) Cuban Student Directorate organization until the connection was terminated because of Ferrie homosexual activities." [Lloyd Ray 2.20.67]

But the actual 2/20/67 CIA document which Gaal referenced states it a little bit differently:

" When we interviewed him on 2 February he mentioned David Ferrie who appears in the 19 February [ New Orleans Times-Picayune ] article, saying that David Ferrie at one time was affiliated with his (Bringuier's) Cuban Student Directorate organization until the connection was terminated because of Ferrie's homosexual activities. "

(NARA Record Number: 104-10262-10143, viewable at the Mary Ferrell Foundation)

side note: Ferrie died February 22, 1967

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following is in a 4/26/1967 document about Ferrie in Oswald's 201 file (201-289248), box 17, volume 4.

The document was originally classified "SECRET", but in 1992 it was approved for release by the CIA Historical Review Program (after having been reviewed for FOIA in December, 1977).

It's viewable at the Mary Ferrell Foundation website. [NARA Record Number: 1993.06.29.09:23:56:650410] :

" [f.] From approximately November 1960 to August 1961 Ferrie was associated with the Cuban Revolutionary Front in New Orleans. He described the front as anti-Castro and claimed that he had been actively engaged in collecting food, money, and medicine for it. The office of the organization, he said, was located at the Balter Building. The head of the front was Sergio ARCHACA Smith. [...] "

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Since Weberman didn't bother to do it in Nodule 11, it would be nice if Steven Gaal would provide us with a RIF #, etc to that "Synopsis of the 1968 CIA Report" which Gaal and Weberman claim deleted information about Ferrie's connections to the Cuban Revolutionary Front.

That is if Gaal knows it.

If he doesn't post a RIF #, etc, to the CIA document, I'll have assume he's never read the original "Synopsis", and I will also have to assume that he uncritically accepts everything Weberman says as the "gospel truth" and passes it on as such.

--Tommy :sun

PS

Dear Steven,

Please post a RIF # , or a NARA # , or a "link" to the 1968 CIA "synopsis".

Why?

Because I'd like to read it.

Thank you in advance.

Your buddy,

-- Tommy. :sun

edited and bumped

Edited by Thomas Graves
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U no like"e" JJA=Marina=paranoid stuff ??

I only posted Ferrie material as a mistake. My Goal via threads was to show JJA runs LHO = brings back spooky wife = PERFECT FOR JJA paranoid thinking and (GOAL) BECAUSE OF THIS : JJA NEVER EVER EVER WOULD BREAK CONTACT LHO. (GAAL)

============================================

Dear Steven,

Please post a RIF # , or a NARA # , or a "link" to the 1968 CIA "synopsis".

Why?

Because I'd like to read it.

Thank you in advance.

Your buddy,

-- Tommy. :sun

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

I think this is what he was talking about.(GAAL)

=


The ... first New Orleans delegate to the Cuban Revolutionary Council (CRC), Sergio Arcacha Smith, told the Committee that he arrived in Miami in August 1960 and at the request of Antonio de Varona, a director of the CRC, agreed to establish a chapter of this group in New Orleans. Arcacha Smith was initially afforded free office space in the Balter Building; he later rented space at 544 Camp Street. He occupied an office at 544 Camp Street for about six months during 1961-62 [October to February] . [HSCA, vol 10, pg 61]

The CRC in New Orleans was affiliated with the main branch of the CRC in Miami, which had been receiving funds from the US Government. Some of these funds may have been disseminated to the New Orleans branch to cover operating costs. [in this regard, the HSCA cited, but did not reproduce or even summarize a] CIA Office of Security memo from Raymond G. Rocca, May 31, 1961, Item F; also a memo from Donovan E. Pratt, Sep 28, 1967, items A, B, and C, regarding Arcacha Smith. The Sep 28, 1967, Pratt memo [was] also found in [the] Office of Security file for David W. Ferrie. One local office did believe the group had the "unofficial sanction of CIA," according to Lieutenant Martello. [vol 10, pp 109, 119, note 106]

Edited by Steven Gaal
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[...]

============================================

Dear Steven,

Please post a RIF # , or a NARA # , or a "link" to the 1968 CIA "synopsis".

Why?

Because I'd like to read it.

Thank you in advance.

Your buddy,

-- Tommy. :sun

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

I think this is what he was talking about.(GAAL)

The ... first New Orleans delegate to the Cuban Revolutionary Council (CRC), Sergio Arcacha Smith, told the Committee that he arrived in Miami in August 1960 and at the request of Antonio de Varona, a director of the CRC, agreed to establish a chapter of this group in New Orleans. Arcacha Smith was initially afforded free office space in the Balter Building; he later rented space at 544 Camp Street. He occupied an office at 544 Camp Street for about six months during 1961-62 [October to February] . [HSCA, vol 10, pg 61]

The CRC in New Orleans was affiliated with the main branch of the CRC in Miami, which had been receiving funds from the US Government. Some of these funds may have been disseminated to the New Orleans branch to cover operating costs. [in this regard, the HSCA cited, but did not reproduce or even summarize a] CIA Office of Security memo from Raymond G. Rocca, May 31, 1961, Item F; also a memo from Donovan E. Pratt, Sep 28, 1967, items A, B, and C, regarding Arcacha Smith. The Sep 28, 1967, Pratt memo [was] also found in [the] Office of Security file for David W. Ferrie. One local office did believe the group had the "unofficial sanction of CIA," according to Lieutenant Martello. [vol 10, pp 109, 119, note 106]

[sigh] Steven, Steven, Steven.

That's not what I'm looking for.

Let me freshen your memory.

This is what you posted earlier on this thread:

  • In February 1968, the CIA prepared a report on David Ferrie
  • [When] a synopsis of this file reached the period when David Ferrie was associated with the Cuban Revolutionary Front, the CIA deleted it. " [--A J Weberman]
  • source http://mcadams.posc....an/nodule11.htm

The fact that David Ferrie was associated with the Cuban Revolutionary Front was deleted from the synopsis of the

1968 CIA report. --Gaal

Please try to focus, Steven.

(I'm truly sorry that you didn't mean to post stuff about David Ferrie on this thread.)

Yesterday I clicked on the link you provided (above) and I read the pertinent passage in Weberman's Nodule 11. The problem is that Weberman doesn't cite a source (RIF #, NARA #, etc) for the "synopsis of the 1968 CIA report", and neither do you.

Do you know how to find the original "synopsis of the 1968 CIA report", Steven?

Your buddy,

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Mr. Trejo...please refresh my memory:

By what evidence--EVIDENCE, not innuendo, not inference, not wild guesses--can we conclude that Clay Shaw was "clearly" involved with Oswald?

Well, Mark, the EVIDENCE I'd cite would be the many people in Clinton, Louisiana who saw Lee Harvey Oswald in the presence of David Ferrie and Clay Shaw in a limousine there, with a license plate registered to the Trade Mart in New Orleans.

The number of people who testified under oath that they were there was high - and included officials in the town, not just townspeople.

That connection remains to be explained.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

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So...in other words, you're citing YOUR OWN RECOLLECTION, and not any actual SOURCES that can be VERIFIED?

Please...how many is a "high" number of witnesses? 30? Or 3?

I'd bet there are FAR more people who will testify to a limo stop in Dealy Plaza than will testify to Oswald and Shaw sharing a limo.

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Mr. Trejo...please refresh my memory:

By what evidence--EVIDENCE, not innuendo, not inference, not wild guesses--can we conclude that Clay Shaw was "clearly" involved with Oswald?

Well, Mark, the EVIDENCE I'd cite would be the many people in Clinton, Louisiana who saw Lee Harvey Oswald in the presence of David Ferrie and Clay Shaw in a limousine there, with a license plate registered to the Trade Mart in New Orleans.

The number of people who testified under oath that they were there was high - and included officials in the town, not just townspeople.

That connection remains to be explained.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

Paul:

You're glomming them all together, as if they all said exactly the same things. Some were strong on Shaw, some not. Some were strong on Ferrie, some not. Some were strong on Oswald, some not. There were not "many people" who claimed that the car was registered to the ITM, there was only ONE guy who claimed that. And there was no such car registered to the ITM, by the way. Not monolithic, and not 100% certainty.

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I appreciate the interjection of reason into this discussion, but I'm afraid Mr. Trejo's mind is made up.

At least it seems that way.

Edited by Mark Knight
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I appreciate the interjection of reason into this discussion, but I'm afraid Mr. Trejo's mind is made up.

At least it seems that way.

Well, Stephen and Mark, I certainly won't win the losing battle that Jim Garrison lost in trying to link Clay Shaw with Lee Harvey Oswald -- but I can ask impartial readers to review some of the evidence with me.

The most important bit, IMHO, is the 1992 statement of Judge Edward Haggerty, the judge at the Clay Shaw trial. Judge Haggerty said: "I believe Shaw was lying to the jury. Of course, the jury probably believed him. But I think Shaw put a good con job on the jury."

All Clay Shaw did was deny everything. Period. It was up to Jim Garrison to prove his case, and Garrison failed to do so to the jury's satisfaction.

What testimony did the Jury hear? Here are some snippets from the testimony of four witnesses from Clinton, Louisiana who were cross-examined by Shaw's attorney, Andrew Sciambra. As a group they claimed to have seen Lee Harvey Oswald in the company of David Ferrie and Clay Shaw near the end of August, 1963.

---------------- John Manchester, Clinton Town Marshal -----------------------------

MANCHESTER. We had a voter registration drive going on there at that time sponsored by CORE. My duties were just to maintain law and order and to try to keep out the outside agitation that was attempting to infiltrate. They had quite a few outsiders coming in. We had other law enforcement but it was -- I was the primary law enforcement officer to take care of this special operation. Also, FBI was there, just observing. I was assigned to the immediate vicinity of the Registrar of Voters' office to keep down any disturbances that might result from this voter registration drive going on. I recall a fairly new black Cadillac with two men inside. I talked to the driver. He was a big man, gray-haired, ruddy complexion, a real easy-talking man.

SCIAMBRA. Do you see the man in the courtroom today that you talked to?

MANCHESTER. Yes, sir.

SCIAMBRA. Would you point him out to us?

MANCHESTER. [The witness indicated Clay Shaw.]

SCIAMBRA. When you asked this individual where he was from, did he say anything?

MANCHESTER. He said he was a representative of the International Trade Mart in New Orleans.

------------------ Henry Earl Palmer, Registrar of Voters --------------------------

PALMER: At 10:30 AM I left my office to get a cup of coffee across the street, and noticed two white men standing in line to register with the black Clinton residents.

SCIAMBRA. Were there many white people in line?

PALMER. No other white people in line that I remember...these...two...were...very close together...two or three people between them. I also noticed an unfamiliar black Cadillac parked near my office, with two men inside. The man on the passenger side...his eyebrows were heavy and his hair needed combing. He had messed-up hair, I noticed that. That is all I could see of him...

SCIAMBRA. Can you describe the man who was behind the wheel of the automobile?

PALMER. He appeared to be a tall man, he had broad shoulders and quite gray hair, and kind of ruddy complexion.

SCIAMBRA. Now do you see anyone in this courtroom today who fits the same general description of the man that you saw in the automobile in Clinton?

PALMER. [The witness indicated Clay Shaw.]

SCIAMBRIA. What did you do then?

PALMER. After my break, the first white man came in the office...and he didn't have enough identification to register...so I sent him out.

SCIAMBRA. When did the next white boy come in?

PALMER. Probably one or two others came between him, and then he came. I asked him for his identification, and he pulled out a US Navy ID card.

SCIAMBRA. (Exhibiting photograph to witness) Now I show you a picture that the State has marked "S-1" for purposes of identification, and I ask you if you recognize the individual in this picture?

PALMER. Yes, sir, I do.

SCIAMBRA. Is this the individual who came into your office that day?

PALMER. It is.

SCIAMBRA. Do you know who is the individual in that picture?

PALMER. Lee H. Oswald....He...wanted a job at the hospital in Jackson...He couldn't give me any proof that he was living in the Parish long enough to register, six months, but I told him he did not have to be a registered voter to get a job at the Jackson Hospital. He thanked me and left.

------------------------ Corrie Collins, Employee of East Louisiana State Hospital -----------------------

COLLINS. I was outside the Registrar of Voter's office at about 9:30 or 10 AM...when a...black Cadillac drove up and parked. A white man...Lee Harvey Oswald...got out of the car and stood in line.

SCIAMBRA. Can you describe the man behind the wheel?

COLLINS. Yes, heavy built, gray hair. I would say he was between 40 and 50, somewhere in that area, and he had on a light color hat.

SCIAMBRA. Do you see the man behind the wheel in this courtroom today?

COLLINS. Yes...[indicating Shaw.] Right here.

SCIAMBRA. Did you get a chance to see the person on the passenger side of the car?

COLLINS. Yes...I would say he was medium built, but the most outstanding thing about him was his eyebrows and his hair. They didn't seem real, in other words, they were unnatural, didn't seem as if they were real hair.

SCIAMBRA. Is this the man you saw (exhibiting a photograph of David Ferrie)?

COLLINS. Yes. That's the man...

--------------------- William E. Dunn, Sr., a CORE volunteer --------------------------------

DUNN. ...I remember a shiny black Cadillac at the voter registration drive. I know one man was setting behind the wheel, and maybe another one but I am not sure.

SCIAMBRA. In the front seat maybe another one?

DUNN. On the front seat.

SCIAMBRA. But you are not sure about the other one?

DUNN. I am not sure about the other one.

SCIAMBRA. Can you describe the man behind the wheel?

DUNN. I can. He was -- big shoulders, big man, and gray hair.

SCIAMBRA. Do you see that man in this courtroom today?

DUNN. I do.

SCIAMBRA. Would you point him out, please?

DUNN. [indicating Shaw.] Right here.

(Dunn also identified a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald as one of several white men he saw in line waiting to register.)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, that's sworn testimony -- clearly defined as EVIDENCE -- that links Clay Shaw with Lee Harvey Oswald.

The only question is whether or not somebody believes the evidence. The question isn't about the ABSENCE of evidence.

Anyway, to bring this topic back to the theme of this thread, Edwin Walker, I would highlight Jim Garrison's own theory about the trip of Shaw, Ferrie and Oswald to Clinton, where Oswald initiated an application for a job at the State Mental Hospital.

To get Oswald to cooperate, they only told Oswald he would be applying for work at a "Hospital." After he completed the first round of paperwork, Oswald learned that this was indeed a Mental Hospital. Then he told his "handlers" that he would never work at such a place. It was too disturbing to him. They argued with him, but he insisted -- he wanted OUT. So, Oswald never returned for further interviews.

Jim Garrison believed that the "sheep-dippers" (Framers) of Lee Harvey Oswald wanted to link his name with a Mental Hospital -- because this would almost certainly prejudice the mind of Americans against Oswald. Americans in 1963 tended to be shocked at any talk of Mental Health, and immediately thought of the worst sorts of criminal insanity.

This reminds us of the way that JFK and RFK treated Ex-General Edwin A. Walker on the morning after the Ole Miss riots, on the 1st of October 1962, when instead of arresting him and charging him with inciting to riot, they remanded him to the Springfield Mental Hospital in Missouri.

Edwin Walker spoke bitterly about that fate for the rest of his life. Even though psychiatrist Thomas Szasz and the ACLU acted with many other political groups to successfully extract Walker from that mental ward within three days (instead of the full 90-day observation period originally proposed), the damage had been done.

To this very day people speak of Edwin Walker as mentally disturbed. For one example, Walker was the model for the suicidal character of Brigadier General Jack D. Ripper in the political comedy, Dr. Strangelove (1964).

It wasn't fair politics, but it was effective politics.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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Paul;

The statements you quoted are from the Shaw trial, when the inconsistencies of earlier statements had been ironed out. Look at the earlier statements, as well as the HSCA-era statements, and read the critical analysis on both sides.

If you were asked under oath to identify a stranger you saw relatively briefly six years earlier, you could positively identify him?

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Paul, I would submit that you have introduced testimony that Shaw and another individual were in the Cadillac, and that Oswald was at the location.

You have not introduced testimony that Oswald came or left in the Cadillac, or that he was associated in any way with the others.

The "he must've" argument fails the fact test. Unless you can place them in the same car, at the same time, I believe you have....[dramatic pause]...nothing but speculation. And I believe that's exactly what the jury saw as well.

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Stephen, I don't deny that their testimony is disputed -- I only wanted readers to see the EVIDENCE that I'm talking about. I'm not making it up.

Opinions about its truth value must form a secondary tier of opinions by both sides.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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Paul, I would submit that you have introduced testimony that Shaw and another individual were in the Cadillac, and that Oswald was at the location.

You have not introduced testimony that Oswald came or left in the Cadillac, or that he was associated in any way with the others.

The "he must've" argument fails the fact test. Unless you can place them in the same car, at the same time, I believe you have....[dramatic pause]...nothing but speculation. And I believe that's exactly what the jury saw as well.

No, Mark, because Corrie Collins specifically said:

"I was outside the Registrar of Voter's office at about 9:30 or 10 AM...when a...black Cadillac drove up and parked. A white man...Lee Harvey Oswald...got out of the car and stood in line."

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

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Do you know how to find the original "synopsis of the 1968 CIA report", Steven?

Your buddy,

--Tommy :sun

==============

"no" --Gaal

Dear Steven,

So if you haven't read the original "synopsis", how do you know that what Weberman says about it in his "Nodule 11" is true?

Do you simply wish and hope and assume that it must be true because you and Weberman have the same "take" on the assassination?

Do you accept everything Weberman says as "the gospel truth" and pass it on as such?

Do you think your doing that will somehow advance JFK assassination research in the long run?

Your buddy,

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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