“The lights all went out,” and the elevators stopped while JFK was murdered. Shelley and Lovelady were near the bottom of the back staircase, by the electrical panel... and Vickie Adams saw them ... until everyone's story changed...

[Jim Hargrove]

John B. makes some fascinating points, but my guess is there were probably no more than two or three people in the assassination team on the sixth floor that afternoon.  Some of the people John counts may overlap.  For example, some or all of the men Richard Carr believed he saw leaving the building from the back may have been the same men seen on the sixth floor.
 

[Jim Hargrove]

Focusing again on Truly and Shelley....

Circa 1:10 pm Truly tells Fritz LHO was missing.  Working backwards….

Fritz and Lumpkin rode up the elevator to the 6th floor around 1:05.

Just before Fritz told Lumpkin about LHO missing, he told the WC that he asked Shelley if he had seen LHO.  The timing here is critical, because Shelley probably was already at DPD headquarters giving his affidavit.

If this timing is remotely accurate, then Truly was lying about talking with Shelley.

Truly hired LHO.

Truly said nothing about the two men at the back of the first floor of the TSBD just a minute or so after the shooting.

Isn’t there a pattern here?  Should we not wonder if Truly was a co-conspirator?
 

[Ron Bulman]

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Focusing again on Truly and Shelley....

Circa 1:10 pm Truly tells Fritz LHO was missing.  Working backwards….

Fritz and Lumpkin rode up the elevator to the 6th floor around 1:05.

Just before Fritz told Lumpkin about LHO missing, he told the WC that he asked Shelley if he had seen LHO.  The timing here is critical, because Shelley probably was already at DPD headquarters giving his affidavit.

If this timing is remotely accurate, then Truly was lying about talking with Shelley.

Truly hired LHO.

Truly said nothing about the two men at the back of the first floor of the TSBD just a minute or so after the shooting.

Isn’t there a pattern here?  Should we not wonder if Truly was a co-conspirator?
 

I've wondered if Truly wasn't involved at some level for years.  Possibly not knowingly in the set up but likely so in the coverup.  Picking out Oswald as the only one missing when he was not the only one missing is a red flag to me.  I believe an assassination team would have cased the TSBD and "snipers nest" in advance in addition to bringing in the Carcano or Mauser, or both.  Maybe on a weekend or the night before regarding the guns.  They would have needed building access.  

I posted this link in the Beto thread regarding Joseph McBrides posting Korth is Beto's wife's step grandad.  It's relevant here too.  Truly was 34 when WWII started, why didn't he volunteer or why wasn't he eventually drafted as many red blooded US men of that age did/were.  His position wasn't essential on the home front.  He did work part time at the north American Aviation facility during the war.  Shelly also worked at a defense plant before hiring on at the TSBD in 1945, the same one as Truly?

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1687-roy-truly-fred-korth-connection

 

[Jim Hargrove]

I think Truly was probably involved... and Shelley.  BTW, since John only added the information fairly recently to his Escape from the 6th Floor write-up, I thought I’d post here why we suspect  Shelley was detained and taken to police headquarters too early to have really been involved in fingering Oswald as missing at the TSBD.

Danny Arce told the Warren Commission the police took Bonnie Ray Williams, himself, Bill Shelley, and other TSBD employees to DPD headquarters (see photos above and below) about 1/2 hour after the shooting. Arce described to the Warren Commission how soon after the shooting they were taken to DPD headquarters (emphasis added):

Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear? 
Mr. ARCE. Three 
Mr. BALL. Did you look back at the building? 
Mr. ARCE. No, I didn't think they came from there. I just looked directly to the railroad tracks and all the people started running up there and I just ran along with them. 
Mr. BALL. Did you go up to the railroad tracks? 
Mr. ARCE. Yeah. 
Mr. BALL. Did you see anything up there? 
Mr. ARCE. No, and they told us go back there and I went back inside the building. 
Mr. BALL. Where did you go then? 
Mr. ARCE. Back inside the building. 
Mr. BALL. How long did you stay in there? 
Mr. ARCE. Oh, about 15 minutes and they took us down to city hall to make statements out. 
Mr. BALL. Then you made out your statement? 
Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir; to the Police Department. 

 

[John Butler]

Jim,

John Armstrong should reconsider his information on Richard Carr.  There are several things in the "Escape from the 6th floor plan" that is different from his testimony at the Clay Shaw trial in 1969.  Compare what John wrote with the portions of the trial transcript I provide below.  He may want to look at this and include it in his essay.

John Armstrong said:

“Richard Randolph Carr saw a man looking out the top floor of the Book Depository moments before the shooting. Carr, like Carolyn Walther, said the man was wearing a light brown coat. He described the man as having an athletic build, wearing horn rim glasses, and a hat. A few minutes after the assassination Carr saw the same man walking toward him on Houston, constantly looking back over his shoulder. The man turned east on Commerce St, walked one block to Record St., and got into a 1961 or 1962 light colored Nash Rambler station wagon. I believe the man wearing the brown coat drove this vehicle north on Record St., turned left on Elm, and stopped in front of the grassy knoll. Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig saw the Nash Rambler stop, heard a loud whistle, and watched as LEE Oswald hurried down the grassy knoll and got into this car at 12:40 PM. This incident occurred at the same time that HARVEY Oswald (the man accused of killing President Kennedy) was riding on a city bus, driven by Cecil McWatters, several blocks east of the Book Depository. LEE Oswald (white shirt) and the man wearing the brown jacket were seen together on the 6th floor of the TSBD (circa 12:30 PM). Ten minutes later (circa 12:40 PM) they were together in the Nash Rambler station wagon as the car quickly left Dealy Plaza.”

This information provided by John Armstrong is different from the testimony of Richard Carr at the Clay Shaw trial in 1969.  The number of people Carr saw and where he saw the Nash Rambler differs from what Armstrong provides.  Perhaps, Armstrong should consider reading the trial transcript for Richard Carr.

“A: Yes, I was on the Seventh Floor of the New Courthouse Building that was under con- struction at that time, located on Houston and Commerce, facing Dealey Plaza.
Q: Approximately what time were you on the Seventh Floor of that building facing Dealey Plaza?
A: Sir, I can't recall the exact time, but it was at the time that the parade was coming down towards Dealey Plaza. I did not have a watch at the time.
Q: Were you in a position where you could see the parade?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Do you recall seeing anything unusual happening?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: Would you tell us what happened.
A: At the time the parade came down towards -- going to the School Book Depository, Dealey Plaza would have been to my left where I was standing, and at the Fifth Floor of the School Book Depository I noticed a man at the third window, this man was dressed -- he had on a light hat, and I saw this man later going down Houston Street, to the corner of Commerce, and then turned toward town on Commerce, and at that time before this happened I heard a single shot which sounded like a small arms, maybe a pistol, and I immediately, immediately there was a slight pause and immediately after that I heard three rifle shots in succession, they seemed to be fired from an automatic rifle and they came – “

” Q: Would you tell us what you observed.
A: Should I point it out, sir?
Q: Yes.
A: At this point right here, at this School Book Depository there was a Rambler Station Wagon there with a rack on the back, built on the top of this.
Q: Which way was the station wagon facing?
A: It was parked on the wrong side of the street, next to the School Book Depository heading north.
Q: North being the top of the photomap, north is the top as you have indicated?
A: North is the top, and it was headed in this direction towards the railroad tracks, and immediately after the shooting there was three men that emerged from behind the School Book Depository, there was a Latin, I can't say whether he was Spanish, Cuban, but he was real dark-complected, stepped out and opened the door, there was two men entered that station wagon, and the Latin drove it north on Houston.

(this is a total of 4 men at the Nash Rambler parked by the TSBD)

The car was in motion before the rear door was closed, and this one man got in the front, and then he slid in from the -- from the driver's side over, and the Latin got back and they proceeded north and it was moving before the rear door was closed, and the other man that I described to you being in this window which would have been one, two, the third window over here came across the street, he came down, coming towards the construction site on Houston Street, to Commerce, in a very big hurry, he came to Commerce Street and he turned toward town on Commerce Street and every once in a while he would look over his shoulder as if he was being followed.
Q: Now, Mr. Carr, did you have occasion to give this information to any law enforcement agencies?
A: Yes, I did.”

[Jim Hargrove]

Thanks, John.

My guess is John A. is aware of Carr’s 1969 testimony, but I’m sure he’s based the paragraph above on Carr’s alleged FBI statement of 2/4/64.  Here are a couple of excerpts:

... I observed a man
looking out of a window of the top floor of the
Texas School Book Depository building. This
man, a heavy set individual, who was wearing 
a hat, a tan sport coat and horn rimmed glasses,
was not in the end window next to Houston St.
but was I believe in the second window over
from Houston St....

... While I was on Houston St. near the
Commerce St. intersection I saw a man whom
I believe was identical with the man I had
earlier seen looking out of the window of the
Texas School Book Depository building. This man,
walking very fast, proceeded on Houston St.
south to Commerce St., then east on Commerce St.
to Record St. which is one block from Houston St.
This man got into a 1961 or 1962 Grey Rambler
Station Wagon which was parked just north of
Commerce on Record St. The station wagon, which
had Texas license and was driven by a young negro
man, drove off in a northerly direction....

The complete statement is here:

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/C Disk/Carr Richard Randolph/Item 02.pdf

No doubt anything coming out of the FBI in this case has to be approached warily, but I really see no reason for Hoover to have faked this version.  What do you think?

[John Butler]

Jim,

What do I think?  I think Richard Randolph Carr was lucky to survive the Warren Commission and HSCA era.  In Jim Marrs’ Crossfire, 2013 ed, on page 308-309 is interesting information that can be related to what you are asking me. 

According to what Marrs wrote in Crossfire, Richard Carr was an honest and upright person who was not intimidated or coerced by the FBI.  According to Marrs in a taped interview, Carr had this kind of relationship with the FBI:

Carr moved to Wyoming after repeated harassment.  There he was shot at and found dynamite in his Carr.  After testifying at the Clay Shaw trial in 1969 he was attacked and stabbed in the back in Atlanta, Georgia.  He only survived because he killed his attacker.

“No doubt anything coming out of the FBI in this case has to be approached warily, but I really see no reason for Hoover to have faked this version.  What do you think?”

I think Carr’s FBI statement of 2/4/64 was manipulated and changed.  Particularly, in the areas that disagree with his statements at the Shaw trial.

I believe there were things that Carr knew that J. Edgar and his hencemen did not want the public to know.  As an example the man Carr saw was moved from the 6^th floor to the 5^th floor.  The story of the Nash Rambler’s location that doesn’t match is another.

There were 4 men at one time at the Nash Rambler rather than 1 and there was no young negro involved simply a dark complected man possibly a Latin.

What happened to Carr after the assassination advances the notion that there was things that he saw and knew that was not acceptable to the authorities.  The FBI couldn’t control him.  He was turned over to the assassins.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

John,

The FBI surely deserves less trust than any other organization (except perhaps the CIA) in the cover-up aspect of this case, and if I saw a legitimate reason to believe Carr’s 2/4/64 statement was altered by Hoover and the boys, I wouldn’t hesitate to believe it.  But the 1964 statement and the 1969 testimony aren’t really all that different, beyond some details, and Carr’s memory might have been clearer in the earlier version.  As you say, there are differences.  For example....

In the 1964 FBI version, Carr said he witnessed the fellow we’re considering “looking out of a window of the top floor” of the TSBD.  But in the 1969 Shaw trial he said, “at the Fifth Floor of the School Book Depository I noticed a man at the third window....”  Although the brief physical descriptions of the man summarize different details, it is obviously the same fellow he witnessed in both versions, neither of which say the man was on the sixth floor, though my bet is that’s exactly where Carr really saw him.

My guess, and it’s just that, is that the FBI didn’t alter the 2/4/64 statement because it clearly contains information that COULD suggest conspiracy.  Carr’s description during the Shaw trial of the sighting comes more than five years after the event and, apparently, after years of harassment.  That said, show me a real reason to believe the 2/4/64 FBI version was fraudulent, and I’ll believe it in a heartbeat.  Thanks for your continuing input!

[Guest]

On 3/21/2019 at 6:05 PM, John Butler said:

Jim,

What do I think?  I think Richard Randolph Carr was lucky to survive the Warren Commission and HSCA era.  In Jim Marrs’ Crossfire, 2013 ed, on page 308-309 is interesting information that can be related to what you are asking me. 

According to what Marrs wrote in Crossfire, Richard Carr was an honest and upright person who was not intimidated or coerced by the FBI.  According to Marrs in a taped interview, Carr had this kind of relationship with the FBI:

Carr moved to Wyoming after repeated harassment.  There he was shot at and found dynamite in his Carr.  After testifying at the Clay Shaw trial in 1969 he was attacked and stabbed in the back in Atlanta, Georgia.  He only survived because he killed his attacker.

“No doubt anything coming out of the FBI in this case has to be approached warily, but I really see no reason for Hoover to have faked this version.  What do you think?”

I think Carr’s FBI statement of 2/4/64 was manipulated and changed.  Particularly, in the areas that disagree with his statements at the Shaw trial.

I believe there were things that Carr knew that J. Edgar and his hencemen did not want the public to know.  As an example the man Carr saw was moved from the 6^th floor to the 5^th floor.  The story of the Nash Rambler’s location that doesn’t match is another.

There were 4 men at one time at the Nash Rambler rather than 1 and there was no young negro involved simply a dark complected man possibly a Latin.

What happened to Carr after the assassination advances the notion that there was things that he saw and knew that was not acceptable to the authorities.  The FBI couldn’t control him.  He was turned over to the assassins.

 

 

Richard Randolph Carr 

Thx to Malcolm Blunt

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

 

Richard Randolph Carr 

Thx to Malcolm Blunt

This is from the Clay Shaw trial in 1969.  It makes everything clear as mud when compared to Bart's handwritten info.  Carr said, "Q: Now, Mr. Carr, did you have occasion to give this information to any law enforcement agencies?
A: Yes, I did.”

I don't disagree with Bart's info, the hand written copy.  It verifies the FBI statement.  The difference between the two Rambler events described in the FBI statements and the trial statements is significant and needs an explanation.

Jim Hargrove's notion is time and distance has distorted Carr's recollections of the event.  And, J. Edgar Hoover had no reason to change the testimony.  Hoover and his henchmen, being the master cover up specialists, in my mind are always doubtful.

Bart's hand written statement by Carr does throw a monkey wrench into the gears.  But, after re-reading Jim Marrs I see no reason to doubt what Carr said at the Clay Shaw trial either.  Carr, in Crossfire tells you what his relationship to the FBI was and the hardships he suffered for saying Lee Harvey Oswald was not the man on the 6th floor.   

From the Shaw Trial:

” Q: Would you tell us what you observed.
A: Should I point it out, sir?
Q: Yes.
A: At this point right here, at this School Book Depository there was a Rambler Station Wagon there with a rack on the back, built on the top of this.
Q: Which way was the station wagon facing?
A: It was parked on the wrong side of the street, next to the School Book Depository heading north.
Q: North being the top of the photomap, north is the top as you have indicated?
A: North is the top, and it was headed in this direction towards the railroad tracks, and immediately after the shooting there was three men that emerged from behind the School Book Depository, there was a Latin, I can't say whether he was Spanish, Cuban, but he was real dark-complected, stepped out and opened the door, there was two men entered that station wagon, and the Latin drove it north on Houston.

[This is comment is mine.  This is a total of 4 men at the Nash Rambler parked by the TSBD.  3 from the TSBD, a Latin driver, and no sign of a young negro driver.  They pickup an Oswald on Elm Street and this makes a possible 4 man team on the 6th floor.  Others could be added such as the driver, whoever arranged boxes, and manipulated the power, others of your choice.]

The car was in motion before the rear door was closed, and this one man got in the front, and then he slid in from the -- from the driver's side over, and the Latin got back and they proceeded north and it was moving before the rear door was closed, and the other man that I described to you being in this window which would have been one, two, the third window over here came across the street, he came down, coming towards the construction site on Houston Street, to Commerce, in a very big hurry, he came to Commerce Street and he turned toward town on Commerce Street and every once in a while he would look over his shoulder as if he was being followed.
Q: Now, Mr. Carr, did you have occasion to give this information to any law enforcement agencies?
A: Yes, I did.”

Edited March 22, 2019 by John Butler

[Guest]

Richard Randolph Carr, from Malcolm Blunt

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by Bart Kamp

[Jim Hargrove]

Megathanks to Bart K. and Malcolm Blunt for making these documents available to us.  I hope others interested in this will double-check, but after comparing the two it appears to me that the typed FBI report of 2/4/64 accurately reflects Carr’s handwritten statement of 2/3/64. 

Although Carr’s handwritten statement does not refer to it, the introductory paragraph on the next day’s FBI typed version includes a reference to a statement made by Carr a month earlier.  Has anyone seen that?

The 1/9/64 FBI memo and the 1/15/64 airtel that Bart posted above seem mostly concerned with a woman’s hearsay report that Carr told her “Lee Harvey Oswald had not assassinated President Kennedy.”  Since Carr specifically denied the woman’s claim in his 2/3/64 handwritten statement, can we assume that was the main reason the FBI re-interviewed him, if that in fact is what happened?

It is NEVER a good idea to blindly trust FBI reports in this case.  We have example after example of how so many were falsified.  But in the case of Richard Randolph Carr, it appears to  me that Bureau accurately depicted his hand-written statement, at least the one of 2/3/64. Again, if anyone has seen an earlier statement by Carr, I’d love to see it.  Thanks again to Bart and Malcolm. 
 

[Paul Jolliffe]

On 3/20/2019 at 8:38 AM, Paul Bacon said:

White shirted Oswald was a very busy man the day of the assassination!  I have no problem believing his movements that day were all part of the plan.

What tipped me off regarding the idea that the men on the 6th floor were not worried about being noticed, was the description of some of the witnesses regarding the movement on the 6th floor --"fiddling with the rifle scope", "sitting astride the window ledge", "seemingly relaxed" (to the extent that the witness assumed he was part of security).  Either these men were security, or they weren't worried about being noticed!  And we know they were not security.

I had a thought the other day, Jim, regarding the use of the passenger elevator for escape.  The two men wouldn't, necessarily, have had to use the elevator to access the 6th floor.  They could have been pre-planted on the 7th floor or on the rooftop (maybe in that little shack on the roof) very early in the work day (or even the night before).  They then made use of the passenger elevator for escape.

Still though, I'm wondering if Baker's earliest testimony about accosting a man on the 3rd or 4th floor, indicates that it was "Lee" alone who used the passenger elevator for escape.  It strikes me that it would have been more imperative to get "Lee" out of the building un-noticed, although it would have been important to get both men off the 6th floor immediately.

In the end, though, it's all speculation.  The testimony of the movements of people in the building after the final head shot are, to use Bart Kamps expression, a cluster fuggazie.

That it was the man in the white shirt - Lee - escaping via the passenger elevator is a distinct possibility. However, thanks to the incuriousity of the WC, we do’t have a description of “this man” who Sawyer “bumped into” as Sawyer was rushing to take the passenger elevator up around 12:34 - 12:37. You are right that it would have been crucial to get Lee out of sight ASAP after the shots.

I agree that Baker’s affidavit rules out our “Oswald” as a suspect, especially since he was sitting and complaining in plain view of Baker as Baker wrote, yet he failed to identify “Oswald” as the suspect he’d previously encountered!

The question remains though: just who did Baker encounter on the 3rd or 4th floor? Was it Jack Dougherty? If not, then we know that Roy Truly lied and vouched for someone who was not a TSBD employee, thus proving Truly was a witting part of the conspiracy.

 

[John Butler]

The language in the 2-3-64 handwritten statement by Richard Carr does not seem to be the language of a construction worker.  Rather, it seems that it could be the language of a better educated person say, a FBI agent.  The story, as written flows, as if it had been practiced or dictated.  The language pattern is that of an educated person.  In mitigation, the educational system of the US was more effective in educating people of that era then it is today.

Regardless, the description there varies greatly from what is testified to by Carr at the Clay Shaw Trial which ended in March, 1969.  The location of the vehicle, the number of people involved, their race or ethnicity, and what floor the hatted man was on are different. 

These differences seem greater than a simple memory lapse or, confusion brought on by time and tide.

Jim Marrs noted that Carr in a taped interview said the following:

Carr’s statements at the Clay Shaw trial differ radically, in my opinion, from years earlier FBI statements. 

From the Shaw Trial:

” Q: Would you tell us what you observed.
A: Should I point it out, sir?
Q: Yes.
A: At this point right here, at this School Book Depository there was a Rambler Station Wagon there with a rack on the back, built on the top of this.
Q: Which way was the station wagon facing?
A: It was parked on the wrong side of the street, next to the School Book Depository heading north.
Q: North being the top of the photomap, north is the top as you have indicated?
A: North is the top, and it was headed in this direction towards the railroad tracks, and immediately after the shooting there was three men that emerged from behind the School Book Depository, there was a Latin, I can't say whether he was Spanish, Cuban, but he was real dark-complected, stepped out and opened the door, there was two men entered that station wagon, and the Latin drove it north on Houston.

The car was in motion before the rear door was closed, and this one man got in the front, and then he slid in from the -- from the driver's side over, and the Latin got back and they proceeded north and it was moving before the rear door was closed, and the other man that I described to you being in this window which would have been one, two, the third window over here came across the street, he came down, coming towards the construction site on Houston Street, to Commerce, in a very big hurry, he came to Commerce Street and he turned toward town on Commerce Street and every once in a while he would look over his shoulder as if he was being followed.
Q: Now, Mr. Carr, did you have occasion to give this information to any law enforcement agencies?
A: Yes, I did.”

Based on this, I conclude that the later statements by Carr at the Clay Shaw Trial are more truthful and explain what Carr actually saw without interference from the FBI.

The events that happened to Carr over time indicate that someone was really interested in what he said and wanted to keep it in tune with his FBI statements to the point of his death.

 

[John Butler]

There is an interesting thread going back to 2007.    

Eddie Piper

By Greg Parker, December 4, 2007 in JFK Assassination Debate

 

Some of this is about Bonnie Ray Williams and I thought this was interesting since Bonnie Ray is my candidate for the black man on the 6th floor:

 

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Posted April 25, 2008

Pat Speer said:

I'd bet money Rowland saw Williams and Norman on the fifth floor, and incorrectly remembered it being the sixth. Note that he makes no mention of seeing Williams and Norman on the fifth, in the windows just below the window he'd supposedly been focusing upon. His wife recalled seeing some black men but thought they were on the fourth, if I recall. ...

IMO, Eddie Piper is not only not a suspect, but one of the most reliable witnesses suggesting Oswald's innocence. From day one he swore he spoke to Oswald on the first floor around 12:00--which was AFTER Givens supposedly saw Oswald upstairs.

If one reads closely the testimonies of Williams, Norman and Jarman, one finds that it's not only impossible for anyone to have seen these guys on the fifth floor very long before the shooting, but also highly improbable for whoever was on the sixth floor to have been Lee Oswald. The latter is due to the apparent fact that Bonnie Ray Williams was upstairs much later than he ever testified, and his failure to have identified Oswald as having been there fairly well exonerates him. After all, what was Oswald going to do to him for ratting him out?

Greg Parker said:

... I will submit that while my arguments may be wrong, they are far more likely to be true than Rowland mistaking the 20 year old Williams as being "elderly".

Is that necessarily so? Consider that, when Williams got down to the fifth floor, Junior Jarman had noticed that he'd had a white dusty or powdery substance in his hair. There is no actual representation of how much of that substance was in his hair. Was it a small spot, say 2 by 2 inches, and only lightly dusted, or did it heavily cover his head? If the latter, could someone have mistaken Williams for being "elderly?"

Jarman only said that he'd noticed the substance in Williams' hair after the shooting, but he does not state that it was not there prior. Now, if we're to believe that a couple of tiny shells kicked loose enough dust to fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor (the floor of the sixth) some (ten?) feet above Williams' head while he kneeled with his head out the window in sufficient quantity after falling that distance - and presumably dissipating at least somewhat - then and only then can that substance have come from the fifth story ceiling cum sixth story floor.

The fact of the matter is that Williams was probably on the sixth floor as late as 12:27-12:28. This is based on Jarman or Norman's testimony that they did not leave the front of the building (where they were seen and noticed by Roy Truly) until after they had heard that the motorcade was on Main Street. That could not have been before 12:22, when the pilot car first indicated that it was on Main Street, and could have been as late as 12:27 when the motorcade was again announced as being on Main.

Word could not have filtered all the way down Main Street and into Dealey Plaza for the two to have gleaned that information from "the buzz of the crowd," although it is possible that someone nearby to the TSBD heard it over a police radio and word then filtered through the crowd there, or that there was a police radio near enough to the front of the TSBD for the two to hear, but in either case, that information could only have come from a radio broadcast.

Jarman and Norman left the front of the TSBD at about the same time as Danny Arce went to meet his friend at the parking lot at Record Street, a short block away, and then walk to Main Street to watch the parade go by. That walk only takes about 1½ minutes. This is evidenced by Roy Truly's testimony that he'd thought he'd seen Hank and Junior crossing Houston with Danny. Either time would have been sufficient for all three of them to get to their respective locations.

Anyway, they went around the back of the TSBD and rode the freight elevator upstairs to the 6th floor. Jarman estimated that this was at 12:26 or 12:28 if memory serves. Jarman also testified that Williams met them after they had arrived, although Norman said that he wasn't certain whether Williams was already there when they'd arrived, or if he'd come afterward (but he certainly did join up with them at some point!).

We also know from Roy Truly's testimony that, when he and Officer Baker had gotten to the elevator shaft, both elevators were at the fifth floor. This jibes with the fact that Hank and Junior said that they'd taken the freight elevator to the fifth floor, and that Williams testified that he had ridden the passenger elevator first to the sixth floor, and then back down to the fifth floor when he decided to go downstairs.

There is, as you might guess, much more to this story, which I'll get around to telling. Immediately, however, it goes to show that it is possible if not likely that the "elderly Negro" on the sixth floor was Bonnie Ray Williams with some "white stuff" in his hair, both because at some point later he did have the "white stuff" there, and because he was on the sixth floor almost right until the shooting.

If that's true - if Williams was upstairs, near a window, with others not matching or even coming close to his description being seen in that and other windows - then Williams saw and very possibly was being "held hostage" by the shooter(s). The fact that he didn't say he'd seen Oswald up there is strong evidence that Oswald wasn't up there, for what did he have to lose - what could he possibly be afraid that a dead man was going to do to him or his family - by saying he'd seen him?

Rowland, incidentally, estimated the time he'd seen the man who "seemed to me an elderly Negro" was at about 12:15, just before he noticed the other man with a rifle in the west window, which he estimated by hearing a police radio nearby (!see above about the motorcade on Main!) announcing that the parade was on or around Turtle Creek or somewhere in that vicinity.

Even Bonnie Ray admitted to being upstairs at that time, "perhaps" even as late as 12:20 or so, which certainly encompasses 12:15.

Greg Parker disputed this later.

Edited March 23, 2019 by John Butler