“The lights all went out,” and the elevators stopped while JFK was murdered. Shelley and Lovelady were near the bottom of the back staircase, by the electrical panel... and Vickie Adams saw them ... until everyone's story changed...

[Sandy Larsen]

I, Bart Kamp, and numerous others claim that the the Victoria Adams, Bill Shelley, and Billy Lovelady encounter was fabricated in order to place Victoria's exit from the first-floor stairwell several minutes (not shortly) after the shooting. Which would explain why she neither saw nor heard Oswald running down the same stairway shortly after the shooting.

Our claim, if true, negatively impacts the respective theories of Jim Hargrove and Andrej Stancak. And so they have attempted to sway member's opinions into disbelieving our claim. Which is understandable and is their right.

Naturally I have the same right. And so I will post here further evidence that the Adams/Shelley/Lovelady encounter didn't occur. The evidence is in the form of a witnesses corroborating Victoria Adams' claim that she came down the steps right after the shooting, and not several minutes later (which is what her encounter with Shelley and Lovelady is meant to prove).

 

 

 

 

So, Miss Garner corroborates Victoria Adam's contention that she came down the steps and exited the stairwell very early. Not several minutes later, as Shelley's and Lovelady's WC testimonies would have it.

And BTW, the fact that that paragraph was even written shows that the WC was worried about the Victoria Adam's problem. It should come as no surprise that the WC decided not to take Miss Garner's testimony.

 

[Andrej Stancak]

20 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Our claim, if true, negatively impacts the respective theories of Jim Hargrove and Andrej Stancak.

Sandy:

I am afraid you do not understand what I am saying. Vicki Adams spoke the truth, it was only the Warren Commission which misinterpreted her story and what she had witnessed. Please do not try to picture me as disputing Vicki Adams' true testimony. This I find to be a foul play by you to suggest I do not believe what Vicki Adams testified. My view also differs mightily from Jim Hargrove's version which I consistently oppose.

What I also say is that Bill Shelley did not lie when he said he stayed after the shooting for a minute or so. He told so to the Warren Commission and he is also seen on the top landing in Darnell. It is your problem that Shelley's testimony and the visual evidence (Darnell) is not enough and that you still believe Shelley lied about staying on the top landing for a minute. 

My version of Shelley's whereabouts questions the front lift escape theory which suggests that Shelley was the confederate who needed to get to the back of the building and restore the power supply in the building.

I am very disappointed with how you twist my views and would wish that you stop doing it.

[John Butler]

This is off topic but, will help with the New Orleans discussion for Joe Bauer.

LHO made several appearances in film during the month of August.  I thought just once on the street passing out pamphlets and once on TV.  But, there were 5 times he was filmed.

Taken from this site:

https://jfkassassinationfiles.wordpress.com/2017/01/13/the-oswald-films-an-outline/

The site has more relevant information than this brief summary:

1. August 9, 1964- James Doyle film- has LHO and Carlos Brinquier in it.

2. August 12, 1964- Johann Russ- WDSU-TV- New Orleans Courthouse sentencing for his Aug. 9 arrest.  Has Carlos Brinquier and other Cubans.

3. August 16, 1964- Johann Russ- WDSU-TV-  Passing out pamphlets in front of the International Trade Mart.  Has Carlos Brinquier, Cubans, Clay Shaw, Charles Rogers, and Chauncey Holt.  Unnamed is William Shelley and others.

4. August 16, 1964- Mike O’Connor- WWL-TV- Passing out pamphlets on the street.

5. August 21, 1964- WDSU-TV studio- Interview of LHO for broadcast.

 

Edited February 25, 2019 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

Shelley and Lovelady were testifying to save their own skins, not especially to help the government make it appear Vickie Adams was on the staircase later than she actually was.  They were testifying to hide the fact that they were involved in shutting off power to the elevators and parts of the building in order to facilitate the escape of the 6th floor assassins, who most likely went down the passenger elevator shaft near the front of the building through the floorboards on the 6th floor.  For that escape to be successful, the passenger elevator absolutely had to be stopped on the fourth floor, the highest point it could reach, while JFK was being murdered.

From cuts in the 6th floor floorboards, the assassin team most likely dropped into the completely enclosed fifth floor of the passenger elevator shaft, which contained the mechanical equipment, pulleys, gears, cables and guides, etc., for the elevator now stopped on the fourth floor immediately beneath it.  From the top of the elevator shaft, the assassination team could drop into the elevator itself through the emergency escape door at the top of the elevator housing.  And then the power to the elevator needed to be turned back on so the killers could descend unseen to a lower floor. 

Who had the knowledge of the electrical workings of the TSBD as well as the opportunity to control the power to the elevators in the critical moments both before and shortly after the assassination?  

Lovelady told the WC that he was by the Domino Room, which is near the electrical panels on the first floor, shortly before JFK’s motorcade entered Dealey Plaza.  An hour or two after the assassination, both Shelley and Lovelady told the Dallas Police that soon after the shooting they were both back inside the building, on the first floor near the back, which also just happens to be near the electrical panels and near where Vickie Adams said she saw them.

And then their stories changed, not once but twice, each time making it appear that it took them longer and longer to get back into the Book Depository building.  Sandy Larsen and Bart Kamp are clearly convinced this was done to make it appear Vickie Adams climbed down the back stairs later than she actually did.

But what Shelley and Lovelady were really doing was trying to distance themselves from being in a position to stop power to the elevators just before the hit and to bring the power back on soon after.  Who else was in a position to do that?  Who else had the knowledge of the building’s electrical circuits?

 

Edited February 25, 2019 by Jim Hargrove

[Jim Hargrove]

And one more thing....

When Baker and Truly ran to the back of the first floor of the Book Depository, who were the two unknown "white men" that Baker saw and are shown on the floor map above?  One of the men was right next to the electrical panels. Baker would not have recognized TSBD employees, but Truly certainly would have.  Did Truly vouch for the men to Baker?  Why didn't the WC ask Truly to identify the two men Baker saw?  I think the WC lawyers didn't want to know the answer!  I think the two men were Shelley and Lovelady.  If not them, who could they have been? 

And another one more thing....

If WC attorneys wanted to discredit Vickie Adams’ timeline, they certainly didn’t need an ever-expanding conspiracy of tricksters to do it.  They didn’t need to add Shelley, Lovelady, Leavelle, and the DPD into their little conspiracy.

All they needed to do was suppress Adams’ testimony, which is exactly what happened.

 

Edited February 25, 2019 by Jim Hargrove

[John Butler]

This is a bit off topic but it fits with how to identify someone when the authorities are trying to obscure the truth.  How close in appearance were Harvey Oswald and Lee Oswald?  That is an important question in considering where Harvey was at during the time of the assassination.  Was an Oswald up on the 6^th floor, an Oswald in the first floor break room, an Oswald in the doorway, or an Oswald on the street filming the motorcade?  It is a shame we don’t have good photos.  If we did we could determine which Oswald was where. 

They were close enough in appearance that they could fool people of bare acquaintance or the seldom met.  After some time one would be remembered as the other.  However, their appearance as twins would not stand close scrutiny if one looked closely at photographs.

In a work place such as the TSBD with 70,000 feet of floor space there is enough room to lose more than two Oswalds in the building.

Using Harvey Oswald’s mug shot I have identified a list of characters that separate Harvey from Lee.  Here they are:

1. Harvey has earlobes and Lee does not.

2. Harvey has a narrow, long nose.  Lee has a long, broader nose.

3. Harvey has a narrow chin and Lee has a short broad chin.

4. There are two bends or crooks in the upper rim of the left ear of Harvey.  Lee lacks this distinguishing characteristic. 

5. Harvey has a wide downward sloping neck in a frontal view and in profile a narrow neck.

6. Harvey has normally sloping shoulders and Lee has shoulders that slope significantly.

The ear folds or bends of the upper left ear rim are very suitable for identifying Harvey Oswald.

Here is an example of how to use these characteristics.  Most people think this is Harvey Oswald in this photo with Marina.  But, It is Lee Oswald.  Without looking at the face one sees Harvey Oswald.

And now to New Orleans for the film showing Oswald at the New Orleans Courthouse.  If you watch the film you see this man as Harvey Oswald.  If you look closer you will see Lee Oswald retouched to look like Harvey.

Harvey and Lee were close in appearance.  But, with closer inspection such as in a photo Lee needed retouching to look like Harvey.  All most all films and photos featuring Lee Oswald have been retouched to make Lee look more like Harvey. 

In the next photo we can see a few Lee traits.  Lee passes well here as Harvey so, no retouching is necessary or, this photo was missed.

Edited February 25, 2019 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

4 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

My version of Shelley's whereabouts questions the front lift escape theory which suggests that Shelley was the confederate who needed to get to the back of the building and restore the power supply in the building.

Fair enough, Andrej.  Let’s discuss this.

Do you believe there was a shooter--anyone--on the 6th floor of the TSBD?  

If so, how did that shooter escape unseen?

The front staircase led only to the basement and the second floor; it did not reach the sixth floor. 

The passenger elevator rose only to the fourth floor.

The outdoor fire escape was visible to the throngs of people outside.

The two rear freight elevators had open sides and the occupants could be seen easily during the very slow ride down.

That leaves the rear staircase, and Vickie Adams, Sandra Styles, Dorothy Garner, followed by Baker and Truly, effectively sealed off the possibility of an escape by that route.

So how do you think the shooter(s) got down from the sixth floor?

[Sandy Larsen]

6 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Sandy:

I am afraid you do not understand what I am saying. Vicki Adams spoke the truth, it was only the Warren Commission which misinterpreted her story and what she had witnessed.

 

Andrej,

You need to be more specific when you say that Vicki Adams spoke the truth. Because according to her WC deposition, she said that she saw Shelley and Lovelady when she exited the stairway on the first floor. But according to Barry Ernest, she did NOT see Shelley and Lovelady.

What do YOU think she told the WC?

 

Quote

Please do not try to picture me as disputing Vicki Adams' true testimony. This I find to be a foul play by you to suggest I do not believe what Vicki Adams testified.

 

When did I say that you disbelieve Vickie Adams' true testimony?

 

Quote

My view also differs mightily from Jim Hargrove's version which I consistently oppose.

 

Yes, I know that.

 

Quote

What I also say is that Bill Shelley did not lie when he said he stayed after the shooting for a minute or so. He told so to the Warren Commission and he is also seen on the top landing in Darnell.

 

If Bill Shelley is visible in Couch/Darnell, it is only because he returned to the steps and stayed there for a while AFTER he ran across the road to the concrete island, where he bumped into Gloria Calvery.

Can you point out in Darnell and also in your reconstruction where Shelley is?

 

Quote

It is your problem that Shelley's testimony and the visual evidence (Darnell) is not enough and that you still believe Shelley lied about staying on the top landing for a minute.

 

Shelley's first day affidavit directly contradicts his WC testimony. In the former he met Gloria Calvery on the concrete island across the road, whereas in the latter he met her on the steps. This contradiction cannot be denied. I accept his first-day statement as being correct.

And then there's the fact that Gloria Calvery is at the steps in Couch/Darnell, which contradicts Shelley's WC testimony. But I understand that you disagree.

 

Quote

My version of Shelley's whereabouts questions the front lift escape theory which suggests that Shelley was the confederate who needed to get to the back of the building and restore the power supply in the building.

I am very disappointed with how you twist my views and would wish that you stop doing it.

 

Andrej, tell me very specifically where I twisted your views. As far as I know I have only disagreed with your views.

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by Sandy Larsen

[John Butler]

My last post was to introduce the notion of how diabolically clever the masterminds of the CIA were.  The cover up specialists, in my opinion, had several goals.  One was to cover up what happened even if that was done superficially.  Another might be to establish conflicting evidence that could be read multiple ways.  This was to establish reasonable doubt so that no one would be prosecuted and convicted of a Kennedy assassination crime.  Oswald would be killed and not go to trial.  Anyone else would not be convicted due to shoddy, conflicting evidence.

Currently, there are 4 good men in disagreement.  Sandy Larsen, Bart Kamp, Jim Hargrove, and Andrej Stancak can't form a consensus on the Shelley / Lovelady incident and testimony.  If these good men can't agree then would a jury at a trial agree on a verdict?  What would be the point of having a trial of a Kennedy assassination conspirator?   

Everywhere I go in the Kennedy Assassination Story I find this conflicting evidence and stories.  When the Warren Commission brought out their truth nearly everyone was in agreement.  I think the number was 81%.  Over time that belief eroded to a reversal of that number in modern times.  What was once believed has been demonstrated to be false.  But, the controversy and conflict will not go away.  Good men can disagree and I think that is what the cover up conspirators wanted to establish.  The Warren Commission did a great job of that.  No one would be convicted for their participation in the murder of President Kennedy and the subsequent cover up.

Edited February 26, 2019 by John Butler

[John Butler]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Fair enough, Andrej.  Let’s discuss this.

Do you believe there was a shooter--anyone--on the 6th floor of the TSBD?  

If so, how did that shooter escape unseen?

The front staircase led only to the basement and the second floor; it did not reach the sixth floor. 

The passenger elevator rose only to the fourth floor.

The outdoor fire escape was visible to the throngs of people outside.

The two rear freight elevators had open sides and the occupants could be seen easily during the very slow ride down.

That leaves the rear staircase, and Vickie Adams, Sandra Styles, Dorothy Garner, followed by Baker and Truly, effectively sealed off the possibility of an escape by that route.

So how do you think the shooter(s) got down from the sixth floor?

I have been suspicious of the fire escape as an avenue of escape for the 6th floor people for a long time.  I have looked at all the films and photos relevant to the time and have found nothing that would indicate an escape route fire escape.  The Tina Towner film has vague images on the 1st and 2nd floor fire escape one could imagine as Dallas Policemen.  But, they are white blobs and dark shapes that you really can not say are policemen.

The fire escape seen in the Hughes film or other films could have been edited to show no one on the fire escape when there were actually men there.  It would not be a big photo editing job to do that.  But, there is absolutely no proof of that.

3 men were said to be in the 6th floor Sniper's Nest location.  One of these men probably stayed for a moment or two after the assassination.  Someone rearranged boxes in the Sniper's Nest.  The HSCA estimated this was done within less than 2 minutes.  This person probably met Truly and Baker on the 4th floor rear stairways.

How did the others leave the 6th floor and by what route?  The passenger elevator escape route at first glance seems fantastical.  But, on study it seems plausible and would be a handy escape route where someone who did not want to be identified would not be identified.  It would be a simple matter for the remaining team member to cover whatever was done to the floor boards with boxes.  That is why there were more boxes in the first photo posted (Powell I think) earlier and less boxes in the second photo (Dilliard I believe).   

[Andrej Stancak]

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

When did I say that you disbelieve Vickie Adams' true testimony?

Well, you were vague enough, however, you wrote that my "theory" (I do not have any theory) differs from your view and your view states that Warren Commission had fabricated the encounter between Vicki and Sandra and Shelley and Lovelady. It is not true that my view would be different from your view in this particular respect. You put my views alongside Jim's view, and Jim actually says that such an encounter did happen because it is in Warren Commission's testimony of Vicki Adams. This is how you misinterpreted my views.

The only point we differ is that I read the testimonies and photographic materials differently to you and the people you mention. I say that it indeed took several minutes to Shelley and Lovelady to return to the building after staying for about a minute or so (Bill Shelley's words) in the doorway before moving to the concrete island. Shelley did not lie about how he got to the building. He came back in about 3 minutes after the last shot and was brave enough not to approve seeing Vicki Adams during his Warren Commission interview, in spite of being lured to say it.

This sequence of events basically eliminates John Armstrong's escape theory, presented here by Jim, because Bill Shelley did not have time to go to the back of the building right after the shooting to pull the switch in the electrical box. My view also differs from those saying that Shelley and Lovelady are seen in Couch/Darnell because these two men were still in the doorway at that time. I have listed in this thread several points to explain the reasons for which Shelley and Lovelady could not be the two men in Couch/Darnell. Shelley's presence in the doorway is supported by 1) His testimony for the Warren Commission, 2) Buell Frazier interview  (2009) in which he said that he has seen them leaving the steps after Gloria Calvery told them about the shooting when she had reached the lower steps, 3.) by the configuration of people in the centre of the doorway in Darnell. That cluster contains three people: Otis Williams in the front, Sarah Stanton in the shadow, and Bill Shelley between these two people. I have reconstructed this cluster and showed it multiple times on this Forum.  

Bill Shelley's affidavit does not say anything about staying on the top landing after the shooting for about a minute because the affidavit is very brief and does not contain any timing of Shelley's movements, only a sequence of events which matches his Warren Commission testimony.  

What the Warren Commission did was that they took the true course of movements of Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady and combined them with Vicki Adams' s movements. The movements of both Shelley+Lovelady and Vicki+Sandra were correctly outlined in Warren Commission report, what was incorrect was merging them on the first floor at the time when Vicki reached the first floor. She did not see Shelley and Lovelady when she reached the first floor, and her testimony was changed by the Warren Commission to say she did.

 

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by Andrej Stancak

[Andrej Stancak]

9 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Fair enough, Andrej.  Let’s discuss this.

Do you believe there was a shooter--anyone--on the 6th floor of the TSBD?  

If so, how did that shooter escape unseen?

The front staircase led only to the basement and the second floor; it did not reach the sixth floor. 

The passenger elevator rose only to the fourth floor.

The outdoor fire escape was visible to the throngs of people outside.

The two rear freight elevators had open sides and the occupants could be seen easily during the very slow ride down.

That leaves the rear staircase, and Vickie Adams, Sandra Styles, Dorothy Garner, followed by Baker and Truly, effectively sealed off the possibility of an escape by that route.

So how do you think the shooter(s) got down from the sixth floor?

Jim:

I do not know if there was any shooting from the sixth floor, it may well be that the shots came from the Daltex building nearby. I sincerely do not know and am therefore not proposing my view of how any assassins had escaped from the sixth floor.  If I once have a theory, I will phrase it and post it for people to comment on it.

However, John and yourself have a theory and you brought it here (thank you for this), therefore, we are discussing your theory. Your theory entails several speculations of which all needed to be true for your escape theory to be true. I questioned some of the points. Since  I am involved in the reconstructions of the doorway scenes and am familiar with witness testimonies, books and photographic evidence pertaining the doorway, I immediately spotted the problem with your escape route theory in assuming that Bill Shelley was a co-conspirator who was there right after the shooting to pull the power switch allowing the first floor lift to depart from the fourth floor. Only, that he was not there. You repeatedly point to the Warren Commission testimony of Vicki Adams which says that Adams did meet Shelley and Lovelady in the vicinity of the frail lifts (where the power switches were located). However, this part of her testimony is not what she told the Warren Commission. She never saw the two men at the moment when she and Sandra got down to the first floor. I wonder if you actually have read Barry Ernest's book.

As per  Shelley's movement, he could not be in the back of the first floor seconds after the last shot to resume the power in the building by pulling the switch in the mains box. 

1. He said in his Warren Commission testimony to have stayed on the top step where he stood during Altgens6 and Wiegman for about a minute or so.

2. He is seen at his spot in the centre of the top landing in the cluster of people in Darnell film. This is about 30+ seconds after the final shot.

3. He was seen by Buell Frazier to depart the steps toward the concrete island after Gloria Calvary told them after the shooting. This is fully consistent with the previous points 1 and 2.

 

So, either you find someone else than Shelley who credibly was at the back of the first floor near the power switches just at the right moment after the shooting or your escape route theory suffers a fatal flaw.

 

There are other problems with your escape route theory. Did you elaborate on what time was necessary for the assassins to get to the first floor (after the last shot)? This is important to know as there were many people in the vestibule behind the glass door within some 2 minutes after the last shot. Should the assassins come at about 2 minutes after the last shot, they would open the lift door and bump into people there.  While you think this is all right, my view is that no assassin would crawl through two floors to get to a lift which spills them where potential witnesseses stand. How comes that no traces were left after lifting the wooden boards and returning them back to their place from the inside of the lift shaft? The assassins would one by one have to squeeze through a tiny opening on the top of the lift box. This not only takes time but it also causes noise. The noise would come from the lift on the fourth floor at which floor several people have stayed. They would likely hear the noise of someone jumping from the top of the lift onto the lift platform. What about the rifles(?). Did they carry the rifles with them when exiting the first-floor lift? Was it not an obstacle when squeezing through the lift opening?  Were they two or three people? If three, was the lift big enough to carry them all? 

 

 

 

 

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Jim:

I do not know if there was any shooting from the sixth floor, it may well be that the shots came from the Daltex building nearby. I sincerely do not know and am therefore not proposing my view of how any assassins had escaped from the sixth floor.  If I once have a theory, I will phrase it and post it for people to comment on it.

However, John and yourself have a theory and you brought it here (thank you for this), therefore, we are discussing your theory. Your theory entails several speculations of which all needed to be true for your escape theory to be true. I questioned some of the points. Since  I am involved in the reconstructions of the doorway scenes and am familiar with witness testimonies, books and photographic evidence pertaining the doorway, I immediately spotted the problem with your escape route theory in assuming that Bill Shelley was a co-conspirator who was there right after the shooting to pull the power switch allowing the first floor lift to depart from the fourth floor. Only, that he was not there. You repeatedly point to the Warren Commission testimony of Vicki Adams which says that Adams did meet Shelley and Lovelady in the vicinity of the frail lifts (where the power switches were located). However, this part of her testimony is not what she told the Warren Commission. She never saw the two men at the moment when she and Sandra got down to the first floor. I wonder if you actually have read Barry Ernest's book.

As per  Shelley's movement, he could not be in the back of the first floor seconds after the last shot to resume the power in the building by pulling the switch in the mains box. 

1. He said in his Warren Commission testimony to have stayed on the top step where he stood during Altgens6 and Wiegman for about a minute or so.

2. He is seen at his spot in the centre of the top landing in the cluster of people in Darnell film. This is about 30+ seconds after the final shot.

3. He was seen by Buell Frazier to depart the steps toward the concrete island after Gloria Calvary told them after the shooting. This is fully consistent with the previous points 1 and 2.

 

So, either you find someone else than Shelley who credibly was at the back of the first floor near the power switches just at the right moment after the shooting or your escape route theory suffers a fatal flaw.

 

There are other problems with your escape route theory. Did you elaborate on what time was necessary for the assassins to get to the first floor (after the last shot)? This is important to know as there were many people in the vestibule behind the glass door within some 2 minutes after the last shot. Should the assassins come at about 2 minutes after the last shot, they would open the lift door and bump into people there.  While you think this is all right, my view is that no assassin would crawl through two floors to get to a lift which spills them where potential witnesseses stand. How comes that no traces were left after lifting the wooden boards and returning them back to their place from the inside of the lift shaft? The assassins would one by one have to squeeze through a tiny opening on the top of the lift box. This not only takes time but it also causes noise. The noise would come from the lift on the fourth floor at which floor several people have stayed. They would likely hear the noise of someone jumping from the top of the lift onto the lift platform. What about the rifles(?). Did they carry the rifles with them when exiting the first-floor lift? Was it not an obstacle when squeezing through the lift opening?  Were they two or three people? If three, was the lift big enough to carry them all? 

Andrej,

Thank you for continuing this fascinating discussion.  A number of witnesses said they heard shots from the TSBD, including some who said they heard spent shells hit the ceiling above them from their position on the fifth floor.  But it sure is hard to know who and what to trust in this case, and so I  respect your position on this.  Let’s move on.

In the 2/17/64 statement of Vickie Adams to DPD detective James Leavelle she also allegedly said that when she reached the bottom of the stairs, she saw “Mr. Shelley and another employee named Bill,” obviously a reference to Lovelady. This would seem to reinforce her alleged WC testimony, though Barry Ernest’s observation that the original stenographer’s notes for her testimony had  disappeared from the National Archives was certainly interesting.

I have not read Barry Ernest’s book yet, but John has mailed it to me (it has to come from overseas).   I do know, however, that forty years after the event Vickie Adams said she did not see Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs.  Barry Ernest told John Armstrong on the phone, and wrote in his book, that Ms. Adams seemed very uncomfortable talking about Shelley and Lovelady, even after all these years, and she told him about how she was continuously hounded for years.  John and I think she finally saw the writing on the wall and gave in to the pressure.

Several of your objections are dealt with directly in John's write-up, but if you think “Altgens6 and Wiegman” put a time stamp on Shelley’s position on the steps so that he could not be back by the 1st floor electrical panel within a minute or so after the shooting, please point me to the films and give an indication of the timing.  Also, please compare the 11/22/63 statements of both Shelley and Lovelady with their WC testimony, and note how much time before re-entering the Book Depository was added to their narratives in the WC versions.

A number of the issues you bring up in your final paragraph above were addressed directly in Escape from the Sixth Floor.   Have you read it?  Because of the minimal construction standard in the TSBD, only a single set of boards separated the sixth floor from the emergency door at the top of the elevator.  There is some evidence that boxes were rearranged, possibly to cover cuts in the floorboards, immediately after the shots rang out.  According to the Warren Report, Bonnie Ray Williams was “a warehouseman temporarily assigned to laying plywood on the sixth floor.” [WCR p. 68]  If memory serves, there are pictures of the sixth floor taken soon after the assassination showing it completely covered with plywood.

Code required that the walls around the passenger elevator shaft be constructed as “firewalls,” which, in a building such as the TSBD usually meant brick construction.  Brick can muffle a lot of sound.

Please follow John’s description of the witness sightings of the man in a brown coat and a man in a white or light-colored shirt that could well have been the assassins who escaped from the sixth floor. From John’s write-up on my website: 

Richard Randolph Carr saw a man looking out the top floor of the Book Depository moments before the shooting. Carr, like Carolyn Walther, said the man was wearing a light brown coat. He described the man as having an athletic build, wearing horn rim glasses, and a hat. A few minutes after the assassination Carr saw the same man walking toward him on Houston, constantly looking back over his shoulder. The man turned east on Commerce St, walked one block to Record St., and got into a 1961 or 1962 light colored Nash Rambler station wagon. I believe the man wearing the brown coat drove this vehicle north on Record St., turned left on Elm, and stopped in front of the grassy knoll. Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig saw the Nash Rambler stop, heard a loud whistle, and watched as LEE Oswald hurried down the grassy knoll and got into this car at 12:40 PM.

Thanks again for your part in this interesting discussion.

A correction from what I said above….

Reviewing the WC Report, I see that the writers do mention Victoria Adams’ testimony about how soon she climbed down the rear stairs, and the report DOES attempt to use Shelley and Lovelady to push her timing late enough to give “Oswald” time to descend the stairs.  And so I retract my statement about merely suppressing her testimony to avoid facing it, but I have to wonder why it was made “Top Secret.”

This hardly, however, negates all the evidence I posted above that someone had to control power to parts the TSBD, especially to the elevators, and how Shelley and Lovelady were likely candidates.  Who else knew how to do it and who else may have been in position to do so?

Are we to believe that the WC attorney pressed J. Leavelle and the DPD into service to plant the story of Adams’ sighting of Shelley and Lovelady into her DPD affidavit?

[Andrej Stancak]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

In the 2/17/64 statement of Vickie Adams to DPD detective James Leavelle she also allegedly said that when she reached the bottom of the stairs, she saw “Mr. Shelley and another employee named Bill,” obviously a reference to Lovelady.

Jim: Leavelle visited Vickie Adams the night she had changed apartment to avoid being constantly harassed by the FBI/DPD who asked her always the same thing: how she got to the first floor and whom she saw. Vicki told no one the address of her new apartment. Leavelle used an unbelievable and unlikely explanation for his visit by saying that there was a fire in DPD and the files with testimonies were burnt, so he wanted to ask again. Vicki Adams did not sign Leavelle's report. So, yes, Vicki was an extraordinary threat to Warren Commission version of events in which Oswald had to get to the first floor before Baker and Truly came in to the second floor. This is why her testimony was altered, she was not given a chance to authorise it (she actually authorised the version which did not make it into the Warren Report). You should read Barry's book before writing your opinions. I read it twice, about a month ago for the second time.

I also read John's escape article. Actually, I read it about two years ago, and immediately saw the problem with Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady who were presented as co-conspirators. The way how the movements of these two men are presented in John's article is incorrect and if the theory hinges on this, then it is also the end of the first floor escape route.

To the pictures: Bill Shelley is the man in dark suit with a black/dark tie standing in the centre of the top landing in Altgens6. This man is also seen at this spot in Wiegman film (taken seconds after the last shot) and also in Darnell. With Darnell, the situation is a bit complicated because there are three persons standing at the center of the doorway create one large blob. Yet, I was able to reconstruct this blob, and can provide step by step explanation of how I achieved this solution. Bill Shelley is the person delineated by blue contour lines in (D). Darnell film was captured about 30 s after the final shot.

To recall: 

Mr. Ball.

What happened; what did you do then?

Mr. Shelley.

I didn't do anything for a minute.

 

 

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by Andrej Stancak

[Jim Hargrove]

Andrej,

Thanks for your reply.  I was just talking on the phone with John and was describing the discussion here on the board, and when I said Sandy and Bart thought the WC attorneys coached Shelley and Lovelady to lengthen the time that elapsed before they returned to the building and Adams saw them (in order to discredit Adams’ timings) he interrupted before I could even finish and said that he agreed 100 percent. 

I’m also well aware of Adams’ description of Leavelle’s visit and his excuse for the affidavit.  John read me the description over the phone of that episode from The Girl on the Stairs.  But remember that she was saying this forty years after it happened.

It’s curious that you would say you saw the problem with Shelley and Lovelady in John’s write-up when you read it two years ago, because John has only added them to that piece in the last few months.  I keep numerous dated backup copies of the entire site, and the “Escape from the Sixth Floor” article from February 2018 (just a year ago) has no mention of either Shelley or Lovelady anywhere in it.  If you’re going to critique the write-up, I’d appreciate it if you would at least read it a relatively current edition.

Thank you for posting the images, but I simply cannot begin to make an ID based solely on those fuzzy pictures.  I have no doubt, however, that both Shelley and Lovelady wanted to be seen away from the electrical panel as often as possible, and that they were probably on the exterior steps to witness the motorcade.  But quoting either man’s testimony from the WC is hardly helpful, as both men’s stories had already changed several times.  Let’s look, for example, at the Day 1 affidavit from Lovelady.

He describes hearing the shots and then says, “After it was over we went back into the building and took some police officers up to search the building.”  Lovelady says he ran across the street, ran into Gloria Calvery, and “went back to the building and went inside and called me wife….”  His office, of course, was right next to the electrical control panel.”

What happened to all that bs about walking to the train tracks with police.  Nothing about standing around for a minute.  It would have taken just seconds to run across the little street, see Calvery, and run back inside the building.  Here is a photo of Bill Shelley, Danny Arce, and Bonnie Ray Williams being taken to police headquarters after the shooting.

Here is an excerpt of Danny Arce’s WC testimony with emphasis added:

Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear? 
Mr. ARCE. Three 
Mr. BALL. Did you look back at the building? 
Mr. ARCE. No, I didn't think they came from there. I just looked directly to the railroad tracks and all the people started running up there and I just ran along with them. 
Mr. BALL. Did you go up to the railroad tracks? 
Mr. ARCE. Yeah. 
Mr. BALL. Did you see anything up there? 
Mr. ARCE. No, and they told us go back there and I went back inside the building. 
Mr. BALL. Where did you go then? 
Mr. ARCE. Back inside the building. 
Mr. BALL. How long did you stay in there? 
Mr. ARCE. Oh, about 15 minutes and they took us down to city hall to make statements out. 
Mr. BALL. Then you made out your statement? 
Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir; to the Police Department. 

Are we really to believe Shelley and Lovelady did all the things they said they did during their testimony in such a brief time?