Three Dallas Cops Who Probably Helped Frame Oswald on 11/22/63

[Robert Harper]

54 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

through Monday morning because I was so obsessed with this case

Wow. What a thread. Everyone's contribution seems packed with connecting links, summaries, suggestions. Armstrong's book - now read twice - has been extremely illuminating and provocative to me, though it made my head spin when I first encountered it. Robert Oswald and the Mom we saw with Marina continue to puzzle - even elude me - but if Messrs. Jolliffe, Hargrove , Thomas etc can make the case with a bullet sequence like that on Walker, it would help those of us, swimming amidst the deep and dark waters. 

[Jim Hargrove]

Thanks for the kind words, Robert….

Since you brought up the Walker bullet, I can’t resist a quick recap that helps show that just about every bit of the evidence against “Lee Harvey Oswald” is phony.  

A few years ago, David Von Pein thought he would show how clear it was that “Oswald’s” Magic Bullets® were used in both the JFK and Walker shootings, and so he posted this fine comparison of the two bullets now in evidence:



At the time, I couldn’t help but point out that Mr. Von Pein had discovered another Magic Bullet®!

The bullet Mr. Von Pein so proudly waved about believing that it was used by “Oswald” to shoot at Edwin Walker, is clearly a copper jacketed bullet.

But as you can see in the original report filed by Dallas police, it was a steel-jacketed bullet dug out of Mr. Walker's house. Somehow, perhaps while at the National Archives, it transformed itself into a copper jacketed bullet!

Magic rifles, magic money orders, magic deposit slips… and now yet another magic bullet! Do you suppose there is something fishy about all this so-called evidence? Do you suppose "Lee Harvey Oswald" was framed?

Nah... it's just magic!

[Steve Thomas]

On 4/1/2019 at 6:54 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

Interesting that Hill volunteered to produce a carbon copy with all three signatures of the 11/22/63 report that apparently vanished.  Isn't it amazing that no one on the WC was interested, apparently, in seeing that vanished report signed by three Dallas cops! 

I'm not really convinced that Sgt. Hill was a conspirator. He may just have been used by Westbrook, his boss.

Steve--Are you aware of any other references to that 11/22 report?  

Jim,

 

No.

Carroll testified to the WC on April 3, 1964 and Westbrook testified on April 6th.

Hill testified on April 8th.

The WC didn't ask Carroll or Westbrook about that joint report because they didn't know anything about it. They also didn't call Carroll or Westbrook back to "clarify".

I like this part of Hill's testimony:

"But as far an another report, other than the original report that afternoon on the arrest of the suspect, I don't recall writing any other report after that one report that was signed by Carroll and I and Captain Westbrook is the only one I wrote on the actual arrest.
Mr. BELIN. I see one 2-page report that is signed by you.
Mr. HILL. Can I look at it?
Mr. BELIN. You bet you can.
[Handing to witness.]
Mr. HILL. This was later when they wanted a report from each individual officer. Yes, sir; I did write this."

 

(I only wrote one Report, but I also wrote this one too, but I forgetted about it and everything).

 

That funny business extended to the Library Card too.

The WC brought Jack Revill back on May 13, 1964 to "clear up a couple of things". One of those was where he got the 605 Elsbeth St. Address from. Revill told the WC that he couldn't remember, but he would find out and get back to them.

 

Warren Commission Document# 948 is a memo from Sorrels to Inspector Kelley dated May 19, 1964.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11344#relPageId=2&tab=page

 

In that memo, Sorrels says that Revill contacted Sorrels (it does not say how this contact was made), and said that Revill told him he got the 605 Elsbeth address orally from Bob Carroll. As the driver of the car that took Oswald from the Theater to the police station, Carroll allegedly looked back over his shoulder and read the address off a Dallas Public Library card that had been removed from Oswald's billfold by one of the officers in the back seat. Carroll allegedly said that he misread the number as 605 instead of 602.

 

This is six days after Revilll's WC testimony, and one month after Bob Carroll told the WC that no mention of an address had been made in the car transporting Oswald to City Hall.

When Carroll testified to the WC on April 3rd, he told them,

"Mr. BELIN. Did he give two names? Or did someone in the car read from the identification?
Mr. CARROLL. Someone in the car may have read from the identification. I know two names, the best I recall, were mentioned.
Mr. BELIN. Were any addresses mentioned?
Mr. CARROLL. Not that I recall; no, sir.

 

There was some funny money being played about that ride back downtown.

 

Steve Thomas

 

[Jim Hargrove]

Is there one single thing about Oswald in DPD custody that isn’t bizarre?

He was interrogated for 12 hours but no notes appeared about those sessions until the ARRB was created?  And then they’re virtually nothing.  Sheesh!

I was looking at a floor plan of DPD headquarters circa 1963, and there was a room there called “Recording Room,” or something close to that.  But no recordings were made of the alleged assassin of a sitting U.S. President and a uniformed Dallas cop?  Not even stenographers notes?  Not even complete cop notes?  Who’s kidding who?

My bet is that as soon as he began to realize what he was up against, he started singing.  “Hey, I’m a U.S. intelligence agent, and I’m on the FBI payroll.  Just call Mr. [fill in the blank].

What a surprise he was murdered in custody.  He could never be allowed to speak openly.  A trial would have been unthinkable.

[Tony Krome]

On 4/4/2019 at 8:39 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

My bet is that as soon as he began to realize what he was up against, he started singing.  “Hey, I’m a U.S. intelligence agent, and I’m on the FBI payroll.  Just call Mr. [fill in the blank].

Maybe he should have yelled that out to the press instead of his famous "patsy" line

[Stephanie Goldberg]

When arrested in New Orleans, Oswald asked to speak to someone from the FBI.  I know he spoke with Quigley, but didn't he ask to speak to someone else first?  

I'm just thinking what a conversation that must have been in Dallas and wondering if he asked to speak to a specific FBI agent there.  If so, it didn't work in his favor.  Hosty was told by his superiors to leave Oswald alone after the first interrogation, yes?  

[Jim Hargrove]

13 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Maybe he should have yelled that out to the press instead of his famous "patsy" line

That would have created a mess for the authorities, and perhaps saved his life.  Had his public comment come later in the game, I wonder if that would have occurred to him.

5 hours ago, Stephanie Goldberg said:

When arrested in New Orleans, Oswald asked to speak to someone from the FBI.  I know he spoke with Quigley, but didn't he ask to speak to someone else first?  

I'm just thinking what a conversation that must have been in Dallas and wondering if he asked to speak to a specific FBI agent there.  If so, it didn't work in his favor.  Hosty was told by his superiors to leave Oswald alone after the first interrogation, yes?  

"In the afternoon Oswald contacted the FBI office in New Orleans, while SA
John Lester Quigley was on duty. The Bureau is not known to dispatch agents to inter-­
view people who have been thrown in jail for disturbing the peace, yet SA Quigley vis-­
ited Oswald in jail on a Saturday afternoon. Before he left the office Quigley asked FBI
employee William Walter to see if the Bureau had a file on Oswald. Walter found a file
which carried an "informant" classification and the name SA Warren DeBrueys as his
contact." [H&L, p. 566]

. . . . 

After leaving court Oswald walked to the New Orleans States-Item and asked
reporter David Chandler to write a story about his arrest and his involvement with the
FPCC. When Chandler told Oswald they (the States-Item) were not in sympathy with
him or his ideas, Oswald told Chandler that everyone had a right to their individual
thoughts.37 A newspaper article would have enhanced Oswald's image as a supporter of Fidel
Castro! [H&L, p. 569]

[Ray Mitcham]

13 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Maybe he should have yelled that out to the press instead of his famous "patsy" line

As a government agent, Tony, he probably thought he would get official help.

[Stephanie Goldberg]

18 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

That would have created a mess for the authorities, and perhaps saved his life.  Had his public comment come later in the game, I wonder if that would have occurred to him.

"In the afternoon Oswald contacted the FBI office in New Orleans, while SA
John Lester Quigley was on duty. The Bureau is not known to dispatch agents to inter-­
view people who have been thrown in jail for disturbing the peace, yet SA Quigley vis-­
ited Oswald in jail on a Saturday afternoon. Before he left the office Quigley asked FBI
employee William Walter to see if the Bureau had a file on Oswald. Walter found a file
which carried an "informant" classification and the name SA Warren DeBrueys as his
contact." [H&L, p. 566]

. . . . 

After leaving court Oswald walked to the New Orleans States-Item and asked
reporter David Chandler to write a story about his arrest and his involvement with the
FPCC. When Chandler told Oswald they (the States-Item) were not in sympathy with
him or his ideas, Oswald told Chandler that everyone had a right to their individual
thoughts.37 A newspaper article would have enhanced Oswald's image as a supporter of Fidel
Castro! [H&L, p. 569]

Thanks!  I could have sworn that I read somewhere that Oswald requested to speak to a specific FBI agent, and since he wasn't available Quigley came instead. I must be thinking of something else I read.

[Steve Thomas]

21 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

That would have created a mess for the authorities, and perhaps saved his life.  Had his public comment come later in the game, I wonder if that would have occurred to him.

"In the afternoon Oswald contacted the FBI office in New Orleans, while SA
John Lester Quigley was on duty.

Jim,

I can't speak for the author of Harvey and Lee, but from what I read, it wasn't Oswald who contacted the FBI. It was Francis Martello of the New Orleans PD.

In his memo, Martello wrote, ""Since he did not appear to be particularly receptive at this time, the interview was concluded and he was returned to the cell block. Prior to entering the cell block, OSWALD was again allowed to use the telephone."

Again allowed to use the phone? When was the first time? And, if he wasn't calling the FBI, who did he call?

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/quigley.htm

Mr. STERN. How did you come to interview Mr. Oswald? 
Mr. QUIGLEY. Lt. Francis L. Martello, platoon commander at the first district, New Orleans Police Station, called our office and advised that he wished an agent to stop by there since there was a prisoner who desired to speak with an agent.

 

In his memo, Martello wrote,

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/martell1.htm ...

"About 10 a.m. on Saturday, August 10, 1963, I observed a placard and handbills which had been placed into evidence against an accused person. This placard contained information concerning the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. I determined that a subject by the name of LEE HARVEY OSWALD was arrested on Friday, August 9, 1963 when he was passing out handbills on Canal Street and was carrying this placard about his person. 
"Prior to being assigned to the First District, I had worked with the Intelligence Unit for two years and since I was generally familiar with various groups and organizations that demonstrate or picket in the city, I decided I would question this individual to see if I could develop any information which would be of value and to ascertain if all interested parties had been...”

 

In his intelligence work: knowing that the FBI had declared an all-out war against the FPCC at that point, I can envision Martello calling up the FBI and saying, "You might want to get an agent down here to interview this guy".

 

Steve Thomas

[Jim Hargrove]

Steve,

It may just be a matter of semantics; after all, prisoners have certain restrictions on how they can communicate with the outside world.

The first sentence of SA John Lester Quigley’s 8/15/63 report, describing his interview of Oswald in the New Orleans jail, reads as follows (emphasis added): "LEE HARVEY OSWALD was interviewed at the First District Station. New Orleans Police Department, at his request."

The full report can be read HERE. (It starts on page 2 of the pdf file.)

That report is interesting since, toward the end, it has quite a bit of info about the Hidell name, which might be relevant to your other thread.  Since Quigley's write-up is dated more than three months before the assassination, we can hope that it is entirely genuine, though I’d hardly bet my life on it.

Edited April 7, 2019 by Jim Hargrove

[Paul Jolliffe]

On 4/6/2019 at 2:45 AM, Stephanie Goldberg said:

When arrested in New Orleans, Oswald asked to speak to someone from the FBI.  I know he spoke with Quigley, but didn't he ask to speak to someone else first?  

I'm just thinking what a conversation that must have been in Dallas and wondering if he asked to speak to a specific FBI agent there.  If so, it didn't work in his favor.  Hosty was told by his superiors to leave Oswald alone after the first interrogation, yes?  

My guess is that “Oswald” asked for Warren DeBrueys, who was apparently unavailable at that moment. Remember that Orestes Pena, owner of the Habana Bar, and his bartender Evarist Rodriguez, both swore that “Oswald” and Pena met at the bar on a couple of occasions. 

DeBrueys, of course, moved from New Orleans  to Dallas and back to New Orleans coincident with “Oswald’s” arrival in the Crescent City, his return to Dallas, and then his murder.

Was DeBrueys “Oswald’s” FBI contact?

Probably.

[Jim Hargrove]

Many researchers consider Lee HARVEY Oswald’s FPCC pantomime around Shaw’s Trade Mart in New Orleans as the real beginning of the assassination plot, and Warren DeBrueys was all over it. Among DeBrueys’ formal or informal informants were Orest Pena, Carlos Bringuier, Jesse Core (who had worked for USIS in India and who replaced David Baldwin as public relations director at Clay Shaw’s Trade Mart) and surely Oswald.  From Harvey and Lee:

The Habana Bar, located at 117 Decatur [in New Orleans], was across the street from the Federal Building where the FBI, CIA, ONI and INS offices were located. The bar was owned by Orest Pena, a former Cuban who was an informant for New Orleans FBI Agent Warren DeBrueys. Pena said that on many occasions David Ferrie and Clay Shaw came to his bar together and knew each other very well. AUG, 63-01102 He said that Sergio Arcacha Smith and SA Warren DeBrueys were close friends and both men knew David Ferrie very well.3

Pena was interviewed by CBS News reporter Dan Rather years after the assassination and talked about DeBrueys and Oswald:

Rather: "Did any of the people you saw having-meeting with Lee Harvey Oswald, were any of these FBI Agents?"
Pena: "Yes....  Warren C. DeBrueys."
Rather: "Warren DeBrueys is an FBI Agent, and you saw him with Lee Harvey Oswald?"
Pena: "Yes, I knew Warren C. DeBrueys very well, because I used to work for him.... I was an informer for the FBI about the people in New Orleans."4

NOTE: FBI employee William Walter, who worked in the New Orleans office, saw an FBI file on Lee Harvey Oswald which was classified as an "Informant file," and had Warren DeBrueys’ name stamped on it.

[H&L, p. 561]

Edited April 7, 2019 by Jim Hargrove

[Steve Thomas]

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Steve,

It may just be a matter of semantics; after all, prisoners have certain restrictions on how they can communicate with the outside world.

The first sentence of SA John Lester Quigley’s 8/15/63 report, describing his interview of Oswald in the New Orleans jail, reads as follows (emphasis added): "LEE HARVEY OSWALD was interviewed at the First District Station. New Orleans Police Department, at his request."

 

Jim,

 

Like you said, it might be a matter of interpretation, but I'd point out that in both cases (the FBI report and Quigley's testimony to the WC, Quigley said he went down to the New Orleans PD at Oswald's request. The information that Oswald had asked to see an FBI agent came from Francis Martello; but in Martello's own memorandum, there is no mention of Oswald asking to see an FBI agent. That's what Quigley was told, and we can't ask Oswald, because he's no longer with us.

 

At this point, I believe that Martello called the FBI office to give them a heads up, and he and Quigley came up with a cover story excuse for Quigley being there.

De Brueys might have been Oswald's FBI handler, but I get the impression that the FBI was an anathema to Oswald. They had given him nothing but grief in his life. For a long time I thought that the CIA had handed Oswald off to the FBI when he came back from Russia, but nowadays, I'm not so sure. Nowadays, I'm more inclined to think it was military intelligence, or some kind of CIA/MI combo. To me, it seems like he appeared in Military intelligence files a whole lot more than in FBI files.

 

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

2 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Was DeBrueys “Oswald’s” FBI contact?

Probably.

Paul,

 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1421&search=DeBrueys#relPageId=5&tab=page

Testimony in Executive Session by Warren DeBrueys before the Church Committee January 8, 1976

 

Are you aware of any information that DeBrueys ever said that he got from Oswald?

 

Steve Thomas