Manson, Bugliosi et al

[James DiEugenio]

The Garretson/Parent aspect was something that I could not really explain so I pretty much avoided it.

First, I agree with Joe, that it is hard to comprehend how Garretson could have slept through what happened. But yet Parent was killed in his car while trying to drive away?  Did Garretson fall into a deep sleep ten seconds after Parent left?

I think its  more credible that he was hiding out someplace when he realized what was happening.  Which is something he would not want to admit of course.

Second, I don't see the point in highly fictionalizing something that is so bizarre to begin with. Terence Malick, in his classic film Badlands, took on a similar murderous tale but he turned it into something poetic, visually rhapsodic and ultimately tried to make a philosophic statement about it. (What happened to his career since that admirable film is really puzzling.)

Bugliosi and Gentry did a disservice to history in the first place. (Although I think it was was really Bugliosi who provided the spin on the event, from his conduct of the trial.)  And, IMO, it was through that hackery that he managed to keep people in jail much longer than they ever should have been. In my opinion, it was him who deliberately leaked that list of actors and actresses that Susan Atkins BS'd about in order to get herself a deal, which she did not get anyway. (Which is an interesting matter in itself.) Towards the end, she wrote a book which actually tried to approach the case in an honest way, and she accented the shooting and wounding of Crowe as a key event.  

The way I got onto this case was while reading Reclaiming History. I thought, if Bugliosi could mangle the JFK case that badly, maybe its time to take a second look at the Tate/LaBianca killings. 

[David Andrews]

Garretson being more-or-less openly gay in 1969, being a "protege" of Rudy Altobelli's, and being perhaps more than a friend to Steven Parent may have something to do with the mystery of why Garretson "slept in."  Another mystery is why no one in the Manson-Watson party thought to go check out the guest house, which was only across the pool from the main house.  Manson would have known that Altobelli owned the house, had money, and had at one time lived in the guest house.

I have to say that the Tarantino movie ending is a bummer, especially since versions exist in two other films.

Edited May 29, 2019 by David Andrews

[James DiEugenio]

This is one of the reasons I did not buy the whole Manson mastermind scenario that Bugliosi sold to the jury.

Manson knew Altobelli was gay. He knew Altobelli had lived in the guest house.

How could he have known those things unless he was either at the place before and/or had been in that milieu.

And if he was masterminding it, would he not have told them to check the guest house for witnesses?

[David Andrews]

I believe that Altobelli testified to seeing Manson on the property after Terry Melcher moved out, while Altobelli was crashing at the guest house.  Manson asked for Melcher and Altobelli told him that Melcher was no longer living there.

It's worth looking at the middle to end of this thread over at DPF for William Weston's thoughts on Manson making a personal visit to Cielo Drive after the hunting party returned.  One important issue is the amount of Tate's and Sebring's blood outside the house's front door, when their bodies were found some distance away, in the living room:

https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?16991-Zodiac-Killer-was-a-Member-of-the-International-White-Guard

 

Edited May 29, 2019 by David Andrews

[James DiEugenio]

Dave:

In my book I note that Deana Martin, Dean's daughter, said that Manson had been to the house when Melcher was living there. She was his girlfriend at the time. She said she had seen Manson there more than once.  This makes sense since Melcher and Gregg Jakobson, his business partner, had been trying to get a documentary film deal about the clan. She said that once he was there with Watson and once with a couple of girls.  She could not forget it since he was wearing a striking looking ring and he noticed her looking at it.  He gave it to her and said, "You're Dean Martin's daughter, right?" (DiEugenio, The JFK Assassination: The Evidence Today, p. 18)  

I have always considered what Bugliosi wrote about Melcher to be part of his cover up, and part of the overall DA's office effort at concealment. They did this in order to divorce the drug element from the crimes and to protect the celebrities involved in that milieu, like Steve McQueen and Cass Elliot.  Living in LA, I understood how this system works. Melcher then cut a deal with Bugliosi so Martin would not testify at the main trial. She did testify at the Watson trial, but this aspect was carefully avoided. From my understanding in the upcoming book the Altobelli, and especially, the Melcher angles will be more fully explored.Once Melcher and Jakobson heard about the shooting of Crowe by Manson, they started doing everything they could to cover their tracks with the clan. IMO, Melcher lied at Watson's trial about how many times he met with Manson. At a real trial with real lawyers, instead of the incompetents the defense had, the defense should have presented Melcher, Elliot and McQueen.  Punching holes in their stories would have gone a long way in establishing what really happened and why.

As per the glasses, my information was that Manson dropped them there to confuse matters. (ibid, p. 23)

I agree with you about Weston.  He made many valuable contributions with the Jerry Rose journal.

Edited May 29, 2019 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

I just took a look at some of the characters in this upcoming movie.

Joe is correct.  The Brad Pitt and DiCaprio characters are fictional.  DiCaprio is an up and coming actor, and Pitt is his stunt double.  Apparently they are modeled on Burt Reynolds and Hal Needham.  I have no idea where that comes from.  And I don't really want to know.

Some of the other people depicted in the film are, please sit down: actor Wayne Maunder, actor James Stacy, singer/actress Connie Stevens and Bruce Lee.

Again, I have no idea as to why.  Except I guess the title gives it away, "Once Upon  a TIme..." They guy who turned the Nazi regime into a comic book, who turned slavery into a spaghetti western, will now turn Tate/LaBianca into a fairy tale.

What a wasted opportunity.  

 

[Ron Bulman]

Wow.  I was surprised when Steve McQueen was mentioned in the coverup.  Dean Martin's daughter was Melcher's girlfriend?  

Context for younger generations.

Makes me think of the Rat Pack, Sinatra-JFK High Hopes.

 

[David Andrews]

8 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

I just took a look at some of the characters in this upcoming movie.

Joe is correct.  The Brad Pitt and DiCaprio characters are fictional.  DiCaprio is an up and coming actor, and Pitt is his stunt double.  Apparently they are modeled on Burt Reynolds and Hal Needham.  I have no idea where that comes from.  And I don't really want to know.

Some of the other people depicted in the film are, please sit down: actor Wayne Maunder, actor James Stacy, singer/actress Connie Stevens and Bruce Lee.

Again, I have no idea as to why.  Except I guess the title gives it away, "Once Upon  a TIme..." They guy who turned the Nazi regime into a comic book, who turned slavery into a spaghetti western, will now turn Tate/LaBianca into a fairy tale.

What a wasted opportunity.  

 

It is a clever idea, though to work that whole movie ranch idea into a fictional story about Hollywood and Manson.  That connection was always lying there latent, including the pathetic murder of Shorty Shea, who made a living falling off horses.  I suppose the idea was to make unlikely heroes of these guys on the downslope of a dying genre.  And it does have that Sergio Leone title...

Edited May 29, 2019 by David Andrews

[Rick McTague]

Aquarius (Netflix)

I happened onto this series a couple of years back, they have two seasons of it.  I'm not saying it did or did not adhere to facts but it does do an amazing job of portraying that late-60's LA scene from many classes of society, mainly from the POV of David Duchovney's character, a police detective.  The whole vibe was really well re-created, including the Manson family "compound" and the ethos there.  I liked that it showed how girls who were neglected by their fathers / parents could be easily taken in by the family, who gave them what they thought they needed: unconditional acceptance and love.

The back story is interesting too, flashbacks to the early 60's with a clean cut Manson homosexually involved with a LA big shot and others, a covered up murder and it all comes back around in the late 60's.  Not sure if any of that is factual...

It's worth viewing I think from doing a good job re-creating that time and place and events.

Thanks

[Robert Harper]

Although I followed the OJ case from the start and attended the trial, I never had any interest in the Manson case, wasn't interested in Helter Skelter. This thread opened up yet another can of worms to now dig into, while I slide down the JFK+ rabbit hole. I have been reading Victor Thorn's writings and discovered another few whoppers; he makes a compelling case for Bilary being a CIA construct. Frankly, this made more sense to me than anything they said or did.

Edited May 29, 2019 by Robert Harper
added 2nd sentence