EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[John Kowalski]

On 1/3/2020 at 10:32 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

John,

We know of only one surviving SS number for LHO and one for Marguerite, but there is plenty of interesting Social Security data John A. uncovered in his research.  For example, as John wrote on our website….

In response to Marina Oswald's "Application for Survivors Insurance Benefits" the SSA failed to include Oswald's earnings from Dolly Shoe, Tujague's, J.R. Michaels, the Pfisterer Dental Lab, and the Dept. of the Navy (Marine Corps). The only earnings the SSA included were those from Oswald's earnings in 1962 and 1963, after his return from the Soviet Union. The SSA reported Oswald's total life-time earnings as $3306.85 (based upon the following documents).

He goes on to show that the $3306.85 lifetime earnings were simply a total of “Oswald’s” 1962 and 1963 income from William B. Reily & Co., Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, Inc, Leslie Welding, and the Texas School Book Depository.

In 1978, in response to a request for information from the HSCA, the SSA wrote back and said it was enclosing, among other things, “Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report re employment of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to service in the Marine Corps.”

For much more on this, see

OSWALD’S SOCIAL SECURITY RECORDS

Jim:

Very interesting article. It's clear that the SSA is holding back information. Did John A. ever try to get a copy of their SSN applications? It would be interesting to see who applied for them and when. Did Lee and his mother apply for them and then their SSNs were given to Harvey? Did Harvey's caretaker use Lee's mother's SSN?

[John Butler]

Jim,

I have finally received a response from Russ Geck.  This is what he wrote:

"Hi, John. Sorry for the delay in responding.  Nothing new to report here. John's wife, Maria, never heard John talking about another child he lived with in America, and Grace never shared information like that with her either. She has almost no information from that time, so unfortunately, we will not be able to be of much help there.  Did you try contacting Grace's side of the family in America? Maybe there's someone there who can offer more help. I was in contact with Fred's granddaughter (where you found my name) in the past. I can try to contact her and see if she would be willing for me to share her contact info with you.

 

Hope all is well.

Russ"

Do you have any ideas on where to go from here?

[John Butler]

3 hours ago, John Butler said:

Jim,

I have finally received a response from Russ Geck.  This is what he wrote:

"Hi, John. Sorry for the delay in responding.  Nothing new to report here. John's wife, Maria, never heard John talking about another child he lived with in America, and Grace never shared information like that with her either. She has almost no information from that time, so unfortunately, we will not be able to be of much help there.  Did you try contacting Grace's side of the family in America? Maybe there's someone there who can offer more help. I was in contact with Fred's granddaughter (where you found my name) in the past. I can try to contact her and see if she would be willing for me to share her contact info with you.

 

Hope all is well.

Russ"

Do you have any ideas on where to go from here?

I guess what I am trying to say is should we consider the Mrs. Jack Tippit phone call issue dead or keep looking around for an alterative answer?

[Jim Hargrove]

John,

Seems like little reason to give up.

Your note to Sara Mares (Can you remind me of her relationship to Gardos family and/or their descendants?) may be a good place to re-start.  I wouldn’t rule out any more information coming from Mr. Geck and/or his in-laws.  Seeking family memories of 70-year-old events is surely no easy task, but I’ll bet your communications will be remembered for some time, and someone in the family might think of something that didn’t occur to them immediately.

The other possibilities that come to mind include looking at the Fred Blair papers at the University of Wisconsin at Madison and searching for any old yearbooks dating back to the 1940s from the long-defunct Public School 30 on E. 88th St. in Manhattan.  This will take some time since little or none of it probably can be done online--with the exception, perhaps, of PS 30 yearbooks.

Brian Doyle just sent me a note wondering if you could use your searching skills to seek any still-living neighbors of Emil and Grace in New York City back in the 1940s.  They’d hardly be youngsters, but you never know what someone might recall about a foster child, especially if they played together as children in the 1940s.

[John Butler]

Jim,

David Josephs has made a brilliant re-analysis of the Tippit call.  At first I wasn't sure I could agree, but believed it was certainly something that needed to be thought about.  On the second reading it made more sense.  What if we have interpreted the call doc wrongly and there are two sets of characters rather than one.  David said:

"Paul...

Take a moment and reread the FBI report...  there are 2 distinct parts being referenced here...

1. The man Ruby killed had a father and an uncle who were Hungarian Communists & THESE MEN lived at 77th and 2nd (I think the FBI changed this too... Yorkville is much more a real community at 87th and 2nd rather than 77th..
2. The call BEGINS TO SPEAK DIFFERENTLY... and mentions Emil, something about a brother-in-law, and WEINSTOCK. 

THE WOMAN SAID SHE KNEW OSWALD’S FATHER AND UNCLE WHO
WERE HUNGARIANS AND COMMUNISTS. THE WOMAN CONTINUED THAT
OSWALD’S FATHER AND UNCLE HAD LIVED AT SEVENTY SEVENTH AND SECOND (87^th?)
AVENUE, YORKVILLE, NYC, THAT WHILE LIVING THERE BOTH WERE
UNEMPLOYED, GOT THEIR MONEY FROM COMMUNISTS AND SPENT ALL THERE
TIME IN COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES.
THE WOMAN THEN BEGAN SPEAKING INDISTINCTLY, DISJOINTEDLY,
AND NERVOUSLY. SHE STATED SHE HAD TWO NAMES TO GIVE AND
MENTIONED THE NAME EMILE KARDOS (GARDOS) AND SAID SOMETHING ABOUT A
BROTHER IN LAW.

THE WOMAN KEPT REPEATING THE WORD BROTHER IN LAW

Where in this report do you see that EMILE KARDOS = OSWALD'S FATHER? or UNCLE?
... or that "FATHER" and "UNCLE" are related (many ways to have a father and uncle from different families)
... or that "UNCLE" is connected to "brother-in-law"...
WE are making these connections, not the report."

….

The part about Hungarians and Communists does not fit Emil Gardos and Fred Blair. So, there might be another pairing for father and uncle.  But, who?

77th and Second Ave. is just outside of what is considered Yorkville.  I have never been able to tie anything to that address.  It might be phony throw off. 

Emil Gardos and Louis Weinstock were directors on the National Committee of the CPUSA.  They were also editors or reporters for the Daily Worker.  Grace Gardos was also. 

Where the possible confusion comes in is when Emil Gardos and the brother in law are mentioned.  This can only be Emil and Fred.  You can make an argument to either separate these pairs and also combine them.  We have looked at the event by combining Emil, Fred, and Grace.  This has led to John Gardos.  And, we now have evidence that backs up the 1966 FBI document (Solo spies) that says Grace wanted to bring her son back to the US.  This is the Russ Geck info.

The 1950 info on Emil Gardos, Amalia (Grace) Gardos, and Louis Weinstock all applying for visas to Hungary in the period 1949-1950 needs to be thought about.  Another communist, Israel Amter,  is charged with the same charges as Louis Weinstock.   He is released from trial for health reasons.  Suspicious.  Both were charged with trying to overthrow the government of the US.

The Solos spies, the Childs, become FBI informants in 1952 or there abouts.  Speaking of 1952 Harvey would be 13 years old.  Isn't there somewhere in Armstrong's Harvey and Lee that the refugee children could not be used until they were 13 years old.  This was some kind of government requirement.  13 years old in 1952 and a trip to New York might connect.

The Grace Gardos situation in 1966 is still something of a mystery.  Why did the FBI consider her suitable for a counter intelligence operation if she returned to the US with her son?  

And, why did Grace Gardos quit communicating with her family and begin a near 50 year period where communications were lost.  This is according toe Sara Mares.

Despite what might be false information in the Tippit Call document there is still much that has been verified.  And, there is the FBI treatment to the doc to consider.

There are still unanswered questions that probably need further research.   

 

Sara Mares is the niece of Grace Gardos.  There was a reference to Fred Blair and Naomi Blair.  Possibly the daughter of Naomi Blair.

Edited January 6, 2020 by John Butler

[Paul Jolliffe]

15 hours ago, John Butler said:

I guess what I am trying to say is should we consider the Mrs. Jack Tippit phone call issue dead or keep looking around for an alterative answer?

John,

Thanks for tracking down Russ Geck, even though no hard new information developed about a possible connection between "Oswald"and Emil Gardos, Grace Gardos, Fred Blair or Louis Weinstock. 

You may have already asked this of them, but do either Andi Geck or her mother (Mrs. John Gardos) have any idea at all why the mysterious woman in 1963 referenced "Oswald", Emil Gardos, Fred Blair, Louis Weinstock, "father", "brother-in-law", "Hungarians", "Communists", Yorkville and the 1950's in the same frantic phone call?

Can they make any guesses about any of it?

Had they ever seen or heard about the FBI report before you showed Russ Geck?

Do either of these two women have the slightest inkling about WHY the mysterious woman connected "Oswald" (somehow) with a man deported in early 1950?

[John Kowalski]

15 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

The other possibilities that come to mind include looking at the Fred Blair papers at the University of Wisconsin at Madison and searching for any old yearbooks dating back to the 1940s from the long-defunct Public School 30 on E. 88th St. in Manhattan.  

Jim:

I will look into the Blair papers. The DP poster will be available on February 2 to access the papers.

[John Butler]

David Josephs said,

“Where in this report do you see that EMILE KARDOS = OSWALD'S FATHER? or UNCLE?
... or that "FATHER" and "UNCLE" are related (many ways to have a father and uncle from different families)
... or that "UNCLE" is connected to "brother-in-law"...
WE are making these connections, not the report."

I said,

“The part about Hungarians and Communists does not fit Emil Gardos and Fred Blair. So, there might be another pairing for father and uncle.  But, who?”

If David Josephs is correct, we need to look for another pair of brothers who can be a father and an uncle.  Ones that are actual brothers, not a father and uncle who is also the brother in law.  In this I don’t know how to account for the brother in law.

The father and uncle of Lee Harvey Oswald allegedly lived at 77^th and 2^nd Ave.  Without a building number that is a big place with a lot of buildings.  I could not find any connection to this location for anyone connected to the FBI Tippit Phone Call.  Emil Gardos, Grace Gardos, Fred Blair, and Louis Weinstock all were close to this area in Yorkville, NYC.  Yorkville is often called Little Hungary and is generally reckoned to be from 79^th Street to 92^nd Street.  Others suggest that Yorkville could stretch further south and north.

The Yorkville Communists might be a good place to look for brothers.

The Yorkville Club was a communist organization at 350 East 80^th Street, NYC.  There membership was 342 members.  The Yorkville Club district for members had Yorkville stretching from 42^nd Street to 96^th Street, NYC.  The main copying machine for printing and copying communist material was located there.  This organization may have dealt with Hungrarian immigration after WWII.  This comes from the book Communist Underground printing and Illegal Propaganda- Congressional Hearings…

This information about the Yorkville Club comes from the period 1945-1947.  It lists several of its members.  I have chosen the ones that have an address on 77^th Street.

First off there is a mention of J. Peters in this record.  Sandor Goldberger alias Alexander Stevens alias Joseph Peter was an alleged agent of the NKVD along with Emil Gardos.

Helen Simmons is an interesting person living at 350 East 77^th Street, NYC was a writer for the Daily Worker.  She would have known all of the cast of the FBI Tippit Call.

Lou and Estelle Weber’s (real names Oringer) address was at 325 East 77^th Street.

William and Sonia Arnett lived at 215 East 77^th Street, NYC.

There were many others listed within just a few streets of 77^th Street and 2^nd Ave.

The Jefferson School of Social Science was a communist organized and dominated school in the area.

There are two brothers associated with the FBI / Grace Gardos.  They are the two Childs brothers, Morris and Jack, the Solo spies.  But, they are Russian rather than Hungarian.

The 77^th Street and 2^nd Ave. area appears to have been remodeled and would have little to do with the appearance of the area and the people of that time.

This was all I could find on communists on 77^th and 2^nd, and the general Yorkville area.

[John Butler]

8 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

John,

Thanks for tracking down Russ Geck, even though no hard new information developed about a possible connection between "Oswald"and Emil Gardos, Grace Gardos, Fred Blair or Louis Weinstock. 

You may have already asked this of them, but do either Andi Geck or her mother (Mrs. John Gardos) have any idea at all why the mysterious woman in 1963 referenced "Oswald", Emil Gardos, Fred Blair, Louis Weinstock, "father", "brother-in-law", "Hungarians", "Communists", Yorkville and the 1950's in the same frantic phone call?

Can they make any guesses about any of it?

Had they ever seen or heard about the FBI report before you showed Russ Geck?

Do either of these two women have the slightest inkling about WHY the mysterious woman connected "Oswald" (somehow) with a man deported in early 1950?

Paul,

Send me an email and I will give you email addresses for Russ and Andi Geck. 

I'm thinking you can probably get more out of them than I did.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

On 1/5/2020 at 9:23 PM, John Butler said:

The part about Hungarians and Communists does not fit Emil Gardos and Fred Blair. So, there might be another pairing for father and uncle.  But, who?

Huh?  The March 7, 1936 Cleveland Plain Dealer indicated that the “immigration and naturalization service of the Department of Labor” ordered that Emil Gardos “must be deported to Roumania, whose territories include Gardos’ birthplace, formerly in Hungary,” or “to any country of his choice” if he “wishes to depart voluntarily….” [emphasis added]

Emil Gardos was a communist AND from Hungary, so it certainly does seem to fit.

[Jim Hargrove]

19 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

Jim:

I will look into the Blair papers. The DP poster will be available on February 2 to access the papers.

That would be terrific.  This fellow essentially will be looking for a needle in a haystack (references to a foster child or someone similar in Emil Gardos' care in NYC), and so we should work up some suggestions of what he will be looking for.

If the Deep Politics member finds he can't do this, please let me know.  I might be able to get to Madison sometime also.

 

[John Kowalski]

A person who may be able to help us is Terri Tippit. She is Jack Tippit's daughter and she may know something about the call. Have tried to locate her but have not been able find her.

 

 

 

 

[John Butler]

7 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Huh?  The March 7, 1936 Cleveland Plain Dealer indicated that the “immigration and naturalization service of the Department of Labor” ordered that Emil Gardos “must be deported to Roumania, whose territories include Gardos’ birthplace, formerly in Hungary,” or “to any country of his choice” if he “wishes to depart voluntarily….” [emphasis added]

Emil Gardos was a communist AND from Hungary, so it certainly does seem to fit.

You are right Jim.  But, it doesn't fit Fred Blair.  A quote from David's comments:

"THE WOMAN SAID SHE KNEW OSWALD’S FATHER AND UNCLE WHO
WERE HUNGARIANS AND COMMUNISTS."
 

That was the point.  It goes along with David Josephs notion we might be making unwarranted assumptions.  I don't necessarily agree with David.  But, he has a good point that needs to be considered.  That is why I stressed Hungarians and communists. 

This doesn't fit Fred Blair suggesting there may be two groups of two men.  It is an idea worth checking out.

 

[John Butler]

7 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

That would be terrific.  This fellow essentially will be looking for a needle in a haystack (references to a foster child or someone similar in Emil Gardos' care in NYC), and so we should work up some suggestions of what he will be looking for.

If the Deep Politics member finds he can't do this, please let me know.  I might be able to get to Madison sometime also.

 

He needs to look into letters between Fred and Grace for the period 1950 to 1966.  Particularly if Grace had more than one child.  The average family size from 1930 to 1960 was 3 or 4 kids per family.  Single child families were rare in the days before birth control.

If he is looking for things Hungarian then the period of 1942 to 1947-1950 would a good place to search for Hungarian children or some indication the Gardos were concerned with Hungarian immigrants or belonged to immigrant organizations?

Where was Fred Blair from 1946 to 1950?  Supposedly, he was hiding out or went underground during the years of the Red Scare.

There is some connection between Grace Gardos and the FBI that kept her from returning to the US in 1966.  Russ Geck said she didn't have the money.  That's not true.  Morris Child, CG 5824-S*, had arranged financing for Grace through Hungarian communist organizations.  Russ Geck may not have known this.

Another question is why did Grace Gardos lost connections to her family after 1966?  Sara Mares indicates this in I believe 2012 or about then.

Another good question is exactly what year did Grace and Emil leave for Hungary.  And, is there any information on how they went, ship or plane?

 

[David Josephs]

4 minutes ago, John Butler said:

You are right Jim.  But, it doesn't fit Fred Blair.  A quote from David's comments:

"THE WOMAN SAID SHE KNEW OSWALD’S FATHER AND UNCLE WHO
WERE HUNGARIANS AND COMMUNISTS."
 

That was the point.  It goes along with David Josephs notion we might be making unwarranted assumptions.  I don't necessarily agree with David.  But, he has a good point that needs to be considered.  That is why I stressed Hungarians and communists. 

This doesn't fit Fred Blair suggesting there may be two groups of two men.  It is an idea worth checking out.

 

John - I think what Jim means is that Fred Blair was not the Uncle... he was considered the brother-in-law.. Emil's brother-in-law in this case, which would also make Emil's brother - the uncle, a brother-in-law.... and brother-in-law to Emil's sisters as well.

If Emil's brothers are not candidates for the UNCLE position, Emil cannot be the father.

Let's take a closer look at the FACTS OF THE CALL:

• SHE COULD NOT GIVE HER NAME AS SHE WAS AFRAID OF BEING KILLED,
  THAT SHE WAS FROM NEW YORK AND HAD TO COME "HERE" TO MAKE THE
  CALL SO THAT SHE COULD NOT BE TRACED
  
  Communists do not trace phone calls... the FBI does, the police does, the "government" does.
  
   
• NOTHING BE SAID TO THE PRESS
  ABOUT A WOMAN CALLING AS THEY WOULD KNOW HER IDENTITY AND SHE
  WOULD BE KILLED
  
  Nothing was said to the press, only the FBI.  We don't know if they tried to TRACE the call based on the time.  Was there any record of local calls in 1963 for police/FBI to trace?
   
• OSWALD’S FATHER AND UNCLE HAD LIVED AT SEVENTY SEVENTH AND SECOND (87th?)
  AVENUE, YORKVILLE, NYC
  
  What do we think, if any, is the significance of this address?  While it used to be part of YORKVILLE, by the 50's it was no longer and was now part of LENOX HILLS in the Upper East Side....  (FWIW this was the most wealthy area of Manhattan comprised of the BANKERS and WALL STREET MEN as well as titans of industry who all supported the Bolshevik Revolution so the Western capitalistic and banking centers would have a strong and growing enemy in the East against which to loan their money to finance wars...)  I mention this as I believe there is a direct connection between what this woman is saying and the original group looking to overthrow FDR's government in the 30's.
  
  Those making up this group and the people in that circle held never-ending wealth and influence.  It's no coincidence WWI and the FED RES ACT coincided. 
   
• THE WOMAN STATED KARDOS IS HEAD OF THE COMMUNISTS AND THAT THIS
  GROUP IN NEW YORK NOW HAS CHARTS AND MAPS.
  
  GARDOS was NOT the head of the communists in NYC.   That article Paul posted was from Wisconsin, not NYC... in NYC Gardos was not all that well known.
  
  From the HUAC 1949 trial including Gardos:
   

  Mr. Malkin. I testified in Peters' deportation hearing and identified him in New York.
  Mr. Dekom. You identified him as what?
  Mr. Malkin: J. Peters was born in Hungary. He was active in the Hungarian revolution in 1919.
  Mr. Dekom. That was the Communist revolution?
  Mr. Malkin. That is right; under Bela Kun. He came to the United States with another person called Emil Gardos.

  AND THIS IS IT !   Other than he and his wife listed for wanting visas, this is the only other reference to Emil Gardos in either book of transcripts

So, while this person has some factual data, she seems to be telling the story not knowing the whole story.... 

John - you have any info on AMY BLAIR, Grace's sister?  It seems to me one would have had to read that Wisconsin paper article to get the names GARDOS and BLAIR associated with "brother-in-law"... yet that article is written in 1949.  From the time Georgia Bell says Marge and son leave around Thanksgiving 1947, until the Bronx zoo photo... we have no location for Harvey Oswald... except for in the TARRANT COUNTY school records:

Believe it or not, the TARRANT books skip 1946-47.  There is nothing for Oswald in the 1944-45 or 45-46 sections...

'47-'48 with NANCY LEE OSWALD who has HARVEY's 1948-49 birthday and who first gets crossed out in 48/49 and then TED L OSWALT is listed next (Ted L has been there all along)

in '48-'49 (above and below) - yet we were told that Marge used 7/19/39 as Lee's Bdate to get him into school BACK IN 1945 !

 

This is for the '49-'50 school year....  Lee was born Oct 18, not 19... right? and when did they change his birthdate from 7/9/39 to 10/19?

 

And 51-52... this is YEARS after their divorce... 

According to TARRANT COUNTY, there never was a boy named LEE OSWALD attending any of their schools...

?????