David Josephs Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 29 minutes ago, John Butler said: Nancy Lee Oswald's birth date and the possibility of being from another state is the only rationalization I can come up with that she is a real person. Other than these two records there is no further data. A genealogical search for Nancy Lee Oswald, b. 10-19-39, turns up lots of Nancy Lee Oswalds of about the same age in other states, but no real matches of any substance. Yup, that's what we found as well.... see the FBI report related to Sept 1, age 6 and Benbrook down below 1 - From which source does this record originate? These would have to be the alphabetized master records of children at the different schools within a school district (Ft Worth; Arlington; etc.) 2 - What is the likelihood that the source, transfer, &/or digitization was altered 3 - the timing coincides with a few important events and some serious fibbing from Robert 4 - That letter from the WORTH HOTEL is 2 days before the supposed enrollment CE1873-C claims to offer his 1st grade info yet it starts with JANUARY 29, 1947 - which we all know was 2nd grade... what they offer starts on 1/27/47 at Lily B Clayton... There is no mention of San Saba or the BENBROOK SCHOOL.... and in true WCR style, the description is on one page while the cards on another paired with the next year's data... But first.... I MISREAD THE TOP IMAGE as June 47 instead of January... and the change in placement of the subjects... but this starts with 2nd grade at Lily B.... nothing here relates to entering Benbrook in Oct 1945.... and since we have a partial year to begin the card... why do we not see the BENBROOK SCHOOL partial year from Nov 1, 1945 to May 1946(??) - his mastoid operation was in FEB 1946.... We have that FBI report (below) related to specific requirements and info found on his BENBROOK ENROLLMENT CARD... which I'm still looking to find.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, John Butler said: Jim and David, My wife loves to do genealogy research. So, she has researched David's genealogy table. It is accurate as can be. Her results say that in Robert Edward Lee Oswald's sibling generation there were 6 children and none were born in the year 1939, except Lee Oswald. Amongst the grandchildren of this generation there was no Nancy Lee Oswald. So, she was not a daughter or grand daughter of Robert's siblings. The list of children for Robert's generation is: Adele b. 1908 Floy b. 1918 Shirley b. 1919 Alice Carter b. 1921 Robert Edward, Jr. b. 1934 Lee Oswald b. 1939 John E. Pic abt. 1932 …. There is something strange about these records. Robert E. Lee Oswald had 6 brothers and sisters totalling 7 in his generation. 7 in his generation has 6 children. This is the days pre-birth control. Half of the children listed above are Marguerite's children. Does this make sense 6 other siblings have 3 children between them. I guess this could be, but how likely is it? Is there a possibility that something is being covered up here? Something no one would ordinarily suspect. But, what? Edited February 21, 2020 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 (edited) David, This info puts to rest the minor disagreement. This info says Nancy Lee Oswald was perhaps from another state or a fictional person. That means altered records and no real reason to do so? How reliable is the FBI report. They have been known to move their evidence in the direction they like. And, what they liked was Lee Harvey Oswald with a birth date of 10-18-39 and no Harveys or Nancys or other birth dates. Something is going on with the Oswalds that really is not that visible or even suspected from their genealogy. I don't think you could pass Harvey or Lee off as a girl, Nancy Lee Oswald. I posted Lee and Marguerite's photo in Arizona. This has Lee or Harvey, I don't know which since the photo is not sharp, I suspect Harvey, at about the same ages as perhaps the first or second grade. Whoever is in the photo, would not pass for a girl. Edited February 21, 2020 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 1 hour ago, John Butler said: Jim and David, My wife loves to do genealogy research. So, she has researched David's genealogy table. It is accurate as can be. Her results say that in Robert Edward Lee Oswald's sibling generation there were 6 children and none were born in the year 1939, except Lee Oswald. Amongst the grandchildren of this generation there was no Nancy Lee Oswald. So, she was not a daughter or grand daughter of Robert's siblings. The list of children for Robert's generation is: Adele b. 1908 Floy b. 1918 Shirley b. 1919 Alice Carter b. 1921 Robert Edward, Jr. b. 1934 Lee Oswald b. 1939 John E. Pic abt. 1932 One last thing. Have you seen this photo or know anything about it. This is from the trip Ekdahl and Marge took in the summer of 1947 I believe as they were still married, yet on the outs with Edwin shacking up with some woman on 8th street... I believe this was an attempt to smooth things out... I used his school photos to place the year... couldn't be summer 48 as Ekdahl was gone...and in 46 she moved to Covington, LA while the marriage was having probs... Or the whole thing with EKDAHL had some other purpose since he was a wealthy socialite intellectual while Marge was nothing of the sort... Ekdahl, Korth and the Ft Worth crowd were trying to take control of the Electrical supply from all the small independents... that's what the company where Ekdahl worked did... - The company was formed from the Electric Bond and Share Company, a holding company that sold securities of electric utilities. It was created by General Electric in 1905 - -Wiki Ekdahl's office was nearby in the Texas Electric Service Company (TESCO) Building at 408 West Seventh... I am reading thru the EKDAHL IRC files now.... I'll post something when I find something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 (edited) David, For the Arizona photo of Lee or Harvey, is it Harvey or Lee in your estimation, and what is the exact year, if possible? Did Marguerite and Ekdahl really go to Mass. in 1945 for 6 months? What I am trying to get a grip on is when did Marguerite gained control of Harvey. Was that in 1945 or 1946 or 1947. I use a set of characteristics generally 5 or more to identify Lee from Harvey. These include a narrower nose than Lee, narrower chin than Lee, and unattached earlobes. I believe I see those features there in this photo and perhaps this is Harvey and not Lee. I believe your timeline has nothing earlier than 1947 for Harvey. There is for sure your note that the Benbrook School is full of contradictions. Edited February 21, 2020 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 6 minutes ago, John Butler said: Something is going on with the Oswalds that really is not that visible or even suspected from their genealogy. I don't think you could pass Harvey or Lee off as a girl, Nancy Lee Oswald. I posted Lee and Marguerite's photo in Arizona. This has Lee or Harvey, I don't know which since the photo is not sharp, I suspect Harvey, at about the same ages as perhaps the first or second grade. Whoever is in the photo, would not pass for a girl. Agreed... but that is LEE and his real mother... as for timing... the summer of '47 was the time GEORGIA BELL claims short, fat Marge and her little son are living at 101 San Saba.... With the real Marge and Lee gone.... and Marge EKDAHL buying San Saba in July 1947... the 2 boarders called themselves OSWALD and were there Summer 1947 is starting to make a little more sense now.... With GE owning EBASCO... and GE's close ties to the government at the time... AND both Ekdahl and EBASCO being in NY the same time Marge et al are there.... and the Fuhrman's and the Tippit call and HUNGARY and then back around to the IRC... I believe we need to run scenarios related to Oswald's duplicity and the entire EKDAHL time period.... FWIW DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 (edited) There is many connections between Harvey and New York Communists. Who did Harvey want as his attorney? John Abt (if my memory serves). John Abt is Gus Hall's attorney. Hall is the leading communist in New York at this time. "With GE owning EBASCO... and GE's close ties to the government at the time... AND both Ekdahl and EBASCO being in NY the same time Marge et al are there.... and the Fuhrman's and the Tippit call and HUNGARY and then back around to the IRC... " Speaking of Hungarian waifs, does this look like a refuge child. It is definitely Harvey and not Lee. Granted this picture could be taken in Hungary, but how did the Oswalds obtain it for use from a refuge child? This looks like American studio photography. "With GE owning EBASCO... and GE's close ties to the government at the time... AND both Ekdahl and EBASCO being in NY the same time Marge et al are there.... and the Fuhrman's and the Tippit call and HUNGARY and then back around to the IRC... " I'm glad you brought this up. I'm having skepticism bouts on the Russ Geck experience. What did he tell us that we didn't know or suspect? …. "Summer 1947 is starting to make a little more sense now.... " I am assuming by this that you mean Harvey was acquired in the summer of 1947 or before the summer. …. The FBI doc says there was an interview of Mary Fuhrman. Is there a copy available. Can't find one on the net. Edited February 21, 2020 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, John Butler said: It is definitely Harvey and not Lee you got it backward John.... the first photo we have identified as NOT LEE but HARVEY is the Bronx zoo photo supposedly taken by Robert in August 1953. In January 1943 while Lee was still 2 - as in that photo - John and Robert are sent away to the orphanage... given how poor Marge claims she was - those MUST be hand-me-down clothes... All three boys are in the orphanage as MARGE MEETS EDWIN at the Naval Base in Algiers.... Orphanage application says she was a telephone operator in Dec 1942 when putting Lee in.... What makes you think the photo above is HARVEY - the little refugee boy from Hungary (as if) Mr. JENNER - Your mother did remind you repeatedly that you were orphans?Mr. PIC - Yes, sir.Mr. JENNER - That sort of thing. Would you elaborate on that, please?Mr. PIC - Well, sir; she constantly reminded us we were orphans, that she didn't have the money to support us in everything, and she opened a notion store to make money, and she wasn't making money, and I remember she closed it and went to work at about the same time that we entered Bethlehem.Mr. JENNER - In January 1942, Lee was a little over 2 years old, is that correct; he was born October 1939.Mr. PIC - Yes, sir.Mr. JENNER - You were then 10 and your brother Robert was 8, I am talking about approximate ages now.Mr. PIC - Yes, sir.Mr. JENNER - I think you entered Bethlehem before your tenth birthday.Mr. PIC - Yes, sir.Mr. JENNER - And a few months before his eighth birthday. Did Lee eventually join you at Bethlehem?Mr. PIC - Yes, sir; he did. The exact date I don't remember. I know he was there for only a matter of months. He wasn't there as long as Robert and I was.Mr. JENNER - I show you a document I will have marked as John Pic Exhibit No. 2, please, for purposes of identification which appears to be a Xerox reproduction of an application blank executed by Mrs. Marguerite Oswald and related minutes for admission of Lee Oswald to the Evangelical Lutheran Bethlehem Orphan Asylum Association, dated at New Orleans, December 26, 1942, and showing entry of Lee Oswald into the orphanage asylum on the 26th day of December 1942.(John Pic Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification.) John Pic correctly tells us Lee from Harvey... notice he is not shown the 1959 passport photo - last known photo of LEE - but only HARVEY starting with the Military DJ CE 281 starts here.... Mr. JENNER - I show you an exhibit, a series of exhibits, first Commission Exhibit No. 281 and Exhibit No. 282 being some spread pages of an issue of Life magazine of February 21, 1964. I direct your attention first to the lower lefth and spread at .the bottom of the page. Do you recognize the area shown there?Mr. PIC - No, sir.Mr. JENNER - Do you see somebody in that picture that appears to be your brother?Mr. PIC - This one here with the arrow.Mr. JENNER - The one that has the printed arrow?Mr. PIC - That is correct, sir.Mr. JENNER - And you recognize that as your brother?Mr. PIC - Because they say so, sir.Mr. JENNER - Please, I don't want you to say--Mr. PIC - No; I couldn't recognize that. Mr. JENNER - Because this magazine says that it is.Mr. PIC - No, sir; I couldn't recognize him from that picture.Mr. JENNER - You don't recognize anybody else in the picture after studying it that appears to be your brother? When I say your brother now, I am talking about Lee.Mr. PIC - No, sir.Mr. JENNER - In the upper portion there are a series of photographs spread from left-hand page across to the right-hand page. Take those on the left which appears to be a photograph of three young men. Do you recognize the persons shown in that photograph?Mr. PIC - Yes; I recognize ,this photograph, the people from left to right being Robert Oswald, the center one being Lee Oswald, and the third one being myself. This picture was taken at the house in Dallas when we returned from New Orleans. Mr. JENNER - You mean from--when you came from New Orleans after being at the Bethlehem Orphanage Home?Mr. PIC - Yes, sir.Mr. JENNER - And you went to Dallas?Mr. PIC - Yes, sir.Mr. JENNER - It was taken in Dallas at or about that time?Mr. PIC - Yes, sir.Mr. JENNER - The next one is prominent; in front is a picture of a young boy. There is a partially shown girl and apparently another boy with a striped shirt in the background. Do you recognize that picture?Mr. PIC - Yes; I recognize that as Lee Harvey Oswald.Mr. JENNER - Do you have any impression as to when and where that was taken?Mr. PIC - Just looking at the picture, I would guess first, second grade, maybe. I would have to guess at it.Mr. JENNER - Then there is one immediately to the right of that, a young man in the foreground sitting on the floor, with his knees, legs crossed, and his arms also crossed. There are some other people apparently in the background.Mr. PIC - I recognize that as Lee Harvey Oswald.Mr. JENNER - Does anything about the picture enable you to identify as to where that was taken?Mr. PIC - No, sir.Mr. JENNER - Then to the right there is a picture of two young men, the upper portion of the one young man at the bottom and then apparently a young man standing up in back of that person. Do you recognize either of those young people?Mr. PIC - Yes; I recognize Lee Harvey Oswald.Mr. JENNER - Is he the one to which the black arrow is pointing?Mr. PIC - Yes, sir.Mr. JENNER - Then right below that is a picture of a young man standing in front of an iron fence, which appears to be probably at a zoo. Do you recognize that?Mr. PIC - Sir, from that picture, I could not recognize that that is Lee Harvey Oswald.Mr. JENNER - That young fellow is shown there, he doesn't look like you recall Lee looked in 1952 and 1953 when you saw him in New York City?Mr. PIC - No, sir.Mr. JENNER - Commission Exhibit No. 284 do you recognize anybody in that picture that appears to be Lee Oswald?Mr. PIC - No, sir.Mr. JENNER - There is a young fellow in the foreground-everybody else is facing the other way. He is in a pantomime, or grimace. Do you recognize that as Lee Harvey Oswald?Mr. PIC - No, sir; looking at that picture and I have looked at it several times--that looks more like Robert than it does Lee, to my recollection.Mr. JENNER - All right. On Exhibit No. 286, the lower right-hand corner, there is another picture. Do you recognize that as your brother Lee in that picture?Mr. PIC - Yes, sir; that is about how he looked when I seen him in 1962, his profile.Mr. JENNER - Do you recognize the person, the lady to the right who is pointing her finger at him?Mr. PIC - No, sir; I don't.Mr. JENNER - Exhibit No. 287 is two figures, taking them from top to bottom and in the lower right-hand corner, do you recognize those?Mr. PIC - No, sir; I don't. Mr. JENNER - Neither one of them?Mr. PIC - No, sir. The lower one appears to me to look like Robert rather than Lee. The upper one, unless they tell me that, I would never guess that that would be Lee, sir.Mr. JENNER - All right. Exhibit No. 288, there is ill the lower left-hand corner, there is a reproduction of a service card and a reproduction, also, of a photograph with the head of a man. Do you recognize that?Mr. PIC - That looks to me approximately how Lee Oswald looked when I seen him Thanksgiving 1962. Mr. JENNER - Directing your attention to Exhibit, Commission Exhibit No. 289, do you recognize any of the servicemen shown in that picture as your brother Lee?Mr. PIC - No, sir; I do not recognize them. Mr. JENNER - Exhibit No. 290, the lower left-hand corner there is a photograph of a young lady and a young man. Do you recognize either of those persons?Mr. PIC - He appears to me as Lee Harvey Oswald in 1962 when I seen him. Mr. JENNER - And the lady?Mr. PIC - She is his wife, Marina, sir.Mr. JENNER - Commission Exhibit No. 291, at the bottom of the page, there is a picture of a young man handing out a leaflet, and another man to the left of him who is reaching out for it. Do you recognize the young man handing out the leaflet?Mr. PIC - No, sir; I would be unable to recognize him. Mr. JENNER - As to whether he was your brother?Mr. PIC - That is correct.Mr. JENNER - Exhibit No. 292, in the upper right-hand corner, is a picture of a lady, a young lady with a child. Do you recognize either of those persons?Mr. PIC - Yes; I recognize Marina Oswald.Mr. JENNER - And the baby?Mr. PIC - No, sir; I couldn't recognize the baby.Mr. JENNER - Below that is a picture purporting to be that of your brother with a pistol on his right hip, and with a firearm, a rifle in his left hand holding up what appear to be some leaflets. Do you recognize that as your brother Lee?Mr. PIC - That is how he looked to me in 1962 when I seen him, sir. Edited February 21, 2020 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 (edited) David, "you got it backward John.... the first photo we have identified as NOT LEE but HARVEY is the Bronx zoo photo supposedly taken by Robert in August 1953." I wasn't speaking about the boy at the Zoo. Speaking of the boy at the Bronx Zoo. I am like John Pic. I don't know who that is even though Robert Oswald says it is his brother. The identification of the baby photo of Harvey Oswald is based on these characteristics for the mugshot of Harvey Oswald at the Dallas Police Station. I've added a few others since this photo was made. Characteristic No. 1 and No. 4 are hard to get around and say well, that doesn't matter. The ears are the same. As far as Me saying this is a Hungarian waif. Not. What I am saying is this boy had nothing to do with the Oswalds until about 1945-47 or there abouts. Lacking a better explanation I am back at the FBI Tippit phone call doc. Edited February 21, 2020 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 5 minutes ago, John Butler said: What I am saying is this boy had nothing to do with the Oswalds until about 1945-47 or there abouts. And I'll have to disagree with you... the only photos we have or a young Oswald other than school photos, are all Lee... ear-bends-ID and all... We know the large image is LEE... with a close-up of the ear 3rd from the left... next to the arrest photo ear you posted The top right image was from a color version of the same photo you posted... didn't transfer well.... Are all these ears from the same person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted February 21, 2020 Author Share Posted February 21, 2020 Fascinating conversation. I just wanted to add that, IMO, there is no way that some of the youthful pictures shown above were of Harvey Oswald. Those images show a child too well fed and content to have been Harvey, even the Harvey shown at the Bronx Zoo. Here’s how Dr. Renatus Hartog described his encounter with (Harvey) Oswald in 1953: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 David, That is just one characteristic of several that are to be used together to figure out who's who. Here's another I recently added concerning hair. Harvey Oswald’s Receding Hairline I have said for years this is not Harvey Oswald. The appearance between this photo and others concerning Harvey Oswald was too extreme. Particularly, in other versions where the facial features are marred. Mainly because of the receding hairline shown in this 1958 photo. However, if you study Harvey’s appearance carefully you will see that he has two come overs to hide this receding hairline. If you don’t see this receding hair pattern from at least 1958 to 1963 or the comb over style that Harvey used later, then there is a possibility that person shown in the photo is not Harvey Oswald. Here is a montage that will show these traits From Russia With Love. Here is another example: Harvey’s face, but not his hairline. Another example of From Russia With Love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 8 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said: Fascinating conversation. I just wanted to add that, IMO, there is no way that some of the youthful pictures shown above were of Harvey Oswald. Those images show a child too well fed and content to have been Harvey, even the Harvey shown at the Bronx Zoo. Here’s how Dr. Renatus Hartog described his encounter with (Harvey) Oswald in 1953: I take your point. However, I don't think any of the photos below age 5 are Lee Oswald. I think most are Harvey prepared for people like us, at least the ones I have seen, are of Harvey. In some, he is added to the photo. This is not hard work for photo editors. That's how they make their living whether in Hollywood, the CIA/FBI, or down at the Dallas Morning News, just to use that newspaper as an example of newspapers in that day, and other organizations like that. Photo editing can change features such as heads, shadows, highlights, whole bodies, and any image in a photo. Or, in the case of Mannikin Row in the Zapruder Film a whole group of people. We are talking about two different Harvey's. One is a two year old boy who seems to be well fed and well cared for an another, a 13 year old boy who was not well cared for physically. I think Dr. Hartog is over stating the case. In no photo of Harvey is there any resemblance to a real concentration camp victim. Or, even a starved out WWII refuge. I disagree on the boy at the Bronx Zoo. You and David agree this is Harvey Oswald. He is well fed, muscled, and has no appearance of a concentration camp victim. Any other picture I have seen of Harvey in his younger years does not resemble a concentration camp victim. Dr. Hartog's description of Harvey I say is part of the basis of the Lone Nut gunman theory. As a psychiatrist he is lacking, reading his description and motivations, I've come to believe he is over rated as a medical person and a psychiatrist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted February 21, 2020 Author Share Posted February 21, 2020 John, I think we're putting too much emphasis on the photos. They're fun and easy to talk about, but just as easy to mischaracterize and misrepresent. But since we're talking about the mug shots, here is what I think is LEE's far more receding hairline: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted February 21, 2020 Author Share Posted February 21, 2020 5 hours ago, David Josephs said: We have that FBI report (below) related to specific requirements and info found on his BENBROOK ENROLLMENT CARD... which I'm still looking to find.... David, This is interesting, but it's hard to keep up with this thread. Do you have the full records you've labelled "1" and "2" above, or do you have just what is shown in the excerpt of CE 1873? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now