EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[John Butler]

3 minutes ago, John Kowalski said:

John B:

Do you know what the earliest date that John A. has for Marguerite and Oswald been seen together? A lot of effort ha been expended examining Harvey's origins, have you attempted to locate Marguerite's origins?

Harvey and Lee pretty much covers Marguerite Oswald on her origins and life.  As far as Harvey goes I think somewhere around 1947-48 or so.  I believe (David Josephs can correct my faulty memory) Harvey is unknown any time prior to that year.  Lee Harvey Oswald was her child.  Although some of the baby pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald are Harvey's.

That's some planning using Harvey's baby photos to show Lee Oswald as a baby and indicates that the real parents of Harvey were into this plan totally.  The photos of Harvey as a baby may be from Hungary or from the US.  My bet is the US.   

"The FBI probably knows who the caller is because they could ask the Tippit's telephone company for their telephone records. These records would provide the numbers of all people who called them. Tina made notes on the calls and given that she received a number of calls, the FBI could have matched the dates and times of the calls to the telephone records to obtain the telephone number the woman used to make the calls. If the woman did not make the call from a telephone booth, then the telephone records would have a telephone number and the name of the person that number belonged to."

Phone booth or hospital hall phone?  They could obtain either kind of number. I am speculating here.  If Bentley made a phone call (being a wise old communist) she certainly would have taken as many precautions as possible to not be traced or identified.  I don't know where Bentley lived in November, 1963.  Be interesting to know more about her.   

[David Josephs]

4 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

John B:

Do you know what the earliest date that John A. has for Marguerite and Oswald been seen together? A lot of effort ha been expended examining Harvey's origins, have you attempted to locate Marguerite's origins?

On July 7 1947 "MARGUERITE EKDAHL" buys 101 San Saba while living at 1505 8th street.... but never lives there...

September 1947 - one of the strangest records I've ever seen related to the Oswalds.... Marge OSWALD divorced in May 1947 from Ekdahl... yet her name changes FROM Oswald to EKDAHL...  the is NEVER a "Lee Oswald" attending school in Tarrant County.

Georgia Bell - living across the street - sees a "short, fat woman with glasses and a young boy" living at 101 San Saba during the summer of '47.
The FBI report on her changes this to 1948... despite that being the summer John and Robert had left Chamberlain Academy.  

It would appear this is when Marge and Harvey come into existence and we speculate that they move to 2220 Thomas as another neighbor LUCILLE HUBBARD drives them to 2220 Thomas to pick up some furniture for 101 San Saba.  2220 Thomas is a reoccurring theme right up to 11/22 - Marge is living at 2220 Thomas and also owned a place on the other side of the school on BYERS...  We had 4833 BIRCHMAN where the REAL MARGE lived... that address does not exist in the WCR... CE229 is the envelope from the Albert Schweitzer School with forwarding addresses - all of which are LEE's mother... none appear as a location where Harvey's caretaker lived .

=======

It would also appear that sometime in 1949 Marguerite, Lee and John visit 101 San Saba... where John takes some photos.  The car is a '38 Plymouth while the car in the EKDAHL Marriage photo with the car is a late 30's BUICK....  John claims he brought the photo cause:

Mr. PIC - Exhibit No. 55, sir, shows Lee's dog and the family car- This car belonged to us, that is why I brought it.

In 1949 we have John Pic's photos of Lee and "Blackie" the dog at San Saba despite Pic claiming to:

Mr. PIC - It was an L--shaped house, sir, being the top of the L was her bedroom, bathroom, kitchen, and living room with a screened-in porch. She and Lee slept together. My brother and I slept in the living room in the screened-in porch on studio couches. When we moved into this house and after the divorce and everything became final, I was--
Mr. JENNER - Excuse me, was that 101 San Saba?
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I don't know nothing about 101 San Saba.

Mr. JENNER - Take that other exhibit and tell us what it was.
Mr. PIC - This was the same dog Lee had in 1948 when we returned from the school. Exhibit No. 54 shows the same store in the background and Lee Harvey Oswald, and a dog named Blackie. And to the right of the picture is the roof and corner of the house.
Mr. JENNER - The house in which you lived?
Mr. PIC - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - I offer in evidence John Pic Exhibits Nos. 54 and 55.   (John Pic Exhibits Nos. 54 and 55 were marked for identification.)
Mr. PIC - After the divorce she bought the house in Benbrook, Tex

The Divorce was final in May 1947 with MARGE getting $1500 less $250 to the lawyers....the WARRANTY DEED says she puts down $1500  (the sale to Otis R. Carleton in 1951 is a crazy story in itself)

 

 

[John Butler]

David,

Harvey and Marge absent from 7-7-1947 into the past.  They come out of the past on that day.  That is certainly a strange record.  It is my understanding that Lee was always called Lee and hated the name Harvey.  If so, why would Lee be registered as Harvey.  Simple answer.  Not Lee. 

….

I am going back over what can be learned about the unknown caller in the Tippit call.  Anything needed to be added or perhaps rethought?

Characteristics of the Unknown Woman in the Tippit Phone Call

1. She was an unknown woman calling at night possibly for anonymity.

2. She was determined to make this call and share her information.  This conclusion was reached by her making several calls to the Tippits.

3. She spoke in a nervous, agitated, low voice if not wanting to be overheard.

4. She had some degree of political awareness or knowledge that the Tippits may be related to the slain Dallas Policeman, J. D. Tippit.  General knowledge or from newspaper articles.

5. She said she was from New York and had to come “here”.  What did did “here” mean to the New Haven, Conn. FBI SAC Agent.  Westport or New Haven?

6. She did not want the call traced because she was in fear of her life.  Where did she come from to “here”.  New York, City or State?  Another location?  Or, from one nearby in calling distance or short long distance?  It could be the same.

7. She feared for her life and did not want the call reported to the newspapers.  “They” would know who she was and she would be killed.  One assumes that the reporters would know who she was, but who would be her killers?  Could one assume that “They” could be government agencies or agents and her possible killers.  Who would think the government did things like that in November, 1963?  Someone who knows more than the average citizen.

8. She was aware of the deadly seriousness of the information she was going to impart.

9. The woman never gave any reason for her call.  The call sounded local.  But, didn’t have to be.

10. Mr. Tippit and Mrs. Tippit felt the unknown woman was a mature woman and did not have a youthful voice.

11. At one point the unknown caller began speaking “indistinctly, disjointedly, and nervously”.  This reflects an earlier statement.

12. She was said to have an accent.  This accent was either Austrian, or perhaps German, or Spanish.  Mrs. Tippit thought German or Austrian and Mr. Tippit thought Spanish.  Maybe because of the confusion in accents the unknown caller could be faking an accent to keep her identity anonymous.

13. IMO, Loud or harsh Hungarian sounds more like Russian and low or soft Hungarian has a vague Spanish sound.

14. Without getting into the text of what she said, one can infer she knew the people she was talking about to some degree, and the circumstances of the events.  In order to know Emil Gardos in New York this must have occurred before 1948.  Emil and wife leaves for Hungary in 1948 on a self-imposed exile.  Louis Weinstock was supposed too, but didn’t.

15. A brother in law is mentioned.  This could be Fred Blair, the brother in law of Emil Gardos.  She would have known him around 1947 when Fred went underground due to the Red Scare or before.  She mentions a Weinstock.  This could be Louis Weinstock.  It could indicate his brother in law.  Along with Gardos, Weinstock was a Hungarian communist.  However, Louis Weinstock did not have a known brother in law.

I want to have a good list to apply against a possible candidate for the unknown caller.  It's speculation.  But, sometimes that might lead into the right area for thinking and evaluation.

Edited March 4, 2020 by John Butler

[David Josephs]

So "a phone call" becomes "several calls"
Unless specifically "plugged" the call couldn't be traced (Long Distance would have involved an operator with possibly a record) yet would the caller know that?
We still haven't figured out who she was fearful of.... but a call tracing usually suggests the FBI.CIA... which to me suggests prior knowledge of the caller by the FBI/CIA and vice versa... yeah?

the FBI report specifically says she didn't say her name out of fear... again reinforcing prior knowledge...

"nothing be said about a woman calling as THEY would know her identity...  if the CIA was involved in something in NY with Hungarian refugees and communists "SHE" would have needed to be in the middle of it...

More later...

John K. mentions the FBI being able to trace the call...  maybe not...

 

https://daysgoneby.me/trace-call-1950s-style-took-little-longer/

 

Trace That Call

by

Clifford Dobbins

In the 1950s and 60s I was employed by General Telephone of Kentucky. In the early 1960’s I was the business office supervisor in Ashland, Kentucky, which serviced eight surrounding cities

Now in those earlier years of technology, the digital revolution was yet to be. There was no Caller ID or other such features. In those days telephone calls were routed and connected through a series of mechanical switches. There was no existing way to determine who was placing the calls.

By working with our plant department personnel we devised a method to identify the calling party. Using a special plug we could freeze the mechanical switches to keep the call open and as long as the receiving party did not hang up their phone, we could trace the call back to the originating party.

[John Butler]

David,

"So "a phone call" becomes "several calls"

This means to me the unknown woman had a compelling urge to divulge the information she had.  Perhaps, the death of Kennedy was horrific to her and she had to do something.  IMO, she didn't call the Tippits for their benefit.  She called to use them as a means to get her information out to someone.  I don't think she realistically believed that the Tippits would not report her call to the authorities or the newspapers.  It may have been her intention that the Tippits share that information.

That's interesting about tracing calls and the telephone system in KY.   I grew up in the 1950 and 60s in Central Kentucky.  Our phone service was a rotary dial service with no connections by a human operator.  You could call the operator for assistance.  I didn't remember the General Telephone of Kentucky at first, but GTE was instantly recognizable.  Our service was provided by a subsidiary South Central Bell.  I thought those kind of systems went out generally in the 1930s and 40s at the latest.

This Dobbins was over in eastern KY.  Ashland is a city in the NE of Ky and I would of thought they had modern phone service in those days.  However, Eastern Kentucky in those days wasn't far off from the Hollywood version of Ky you see in the movies.  They are still at this archaic version of Ky as best seen in the TV show Justified.

I would assume Connecticut was more modern than parts of Ky during the 1950s etc. 

PS

I know I did not type Kentucky for Kennedy.  110% sure of that.  This is an all to common a problem.  Whoever is fooling with these posts needs to grow up and get a life.

Edited March 5, 2020 by John Butler

[John Butler]

Elizabeth Bentley, The Red Queen

From Wikipedia:

Elizabeth Bentley- (January 1, 1908 – December 3, 1963) was an American spy and member of the Communist Party USA who served the Soviet Union from 1938 until 1945. In 1945, she defected from the Communist Party and Soviet intelligence by contacting the FBI and reporting on her activities.

From:  CT Files: The Red Spy Queen

Mar 9, 2017

“Nazi Germany had been defeated a few months earlier and the uneasy wartime alliance between the U.S. and the Soviet Union was over. And thanks in part to Bentley — a Soviet spy turned double agent — the Cold War was about to start in earnest. The information she would provide FBI agents would directly fuel the anti-Communist witch hunts spearheaded by Joseph McCarthy, temporarily stop Soviet espionage activity in the U.S. and lead to convictions in two of the most famous spying cases in U.S. history — the Rosenbergs and Alger Hiss.”

Could Elizabeth Bentley be the unknown caller in the Tippit phone call.  Possibly?  She could fit most of the characteristics of the unknown caller with the exception of an accent.  Bentley was American born with no traces of recent immigrant ancestry.  Since we are speculating an accent could be assumed as part of a disguise.

What connects Elizabeth Bentley to the Tippit call.  She knew the major communist figures in New York during the 1930s and 1940s.  She knew Emil Gardos and Louis Weinstock.  These were the two men mentioned in the Tippit call.  She knew the brother in law which must be considered Emil Gardos’ brother in law.  Louis Weinstock did not have a known brother in law. 

Fred Blair was Emil Gardos’ brother in law through his sister Grace who had married Emil Gardos.  The unknown caller knew the brother in law, but could not recall the name.  This could be because Fred was out of sight and out of mind in Minnesota for years in 1963.  Fred Blair was an upper level communist leader, a member of the National Directorate.

How did Elizabeth Bentley know Emil Gardos and Louis Weinstock?  Bentley was an important spy and courier in New York during the 1930s and 1940s.  She was a member of the most important communist spy groups and headed her own at one time.  When she became an informer for the FBI, she exposed two spy groups and over 80 members, some say 150 with 37 government employees.  She was an informant for the FBI and perhaps other government agencies. 

As an interesting aside, she was quickly burned as a FBI spy and informant. 

From:  Atomic Heritage Foundation website

“In November 1945, Bentley was led by a combination of her anger toward the KGB, alcoholism, and extreme paranoia to voluntarily confess her espionage activities to the FBI. Bentley provided the FBI with a complete and signed 108-page confession on November 30, 1945. In the document, she summarized her career as a Soviet spy and identified a number of sources she and Golos provided for the KGB. 

J. Edgar Hoover, the head of the FBI, shared a copy of Bentley's deposition with William Stephenson, chief of British Security Coordination, who forwarded the news to London. This transmission was picked up by Kim Philby, one of the Cambridge Ring KGB spies, and he forwarded a summary to KGB headquarters in Moscow on December 4, 1945. Bentley's deposition exposed forty-one Soviet sources to the FBI, including Victor Perlo, Harry Dexter White, and Nathan Silvermaster.” 

 

Bentley’s first Soviet handler was Jacob Golos in 1938.  Bentley became involved with Golos, but they never married.  Golos dies of heart problems in 1943.  This was said to be the cause of Elizabeths depression and alcoholism.  However, she was a honored and respected communist receiving the Order of the Red Star in 1944.

Before that in 1940, Golos was forced to register as an agent of the Soviet Government.  This cut down on his usefulness and many functions were transferred to the mysterious J. Peters.  J. Peters’ real name was Sandor Goldberger.  It is alleged that Sandor Goldberger and Emil Gardos were NKVD agents in Hungarian and came to America as such in the early 1920s.

Here they took the role of figures in the background and not the top American communist leaders.  As NKVD agents they more than likely influenced the decisions made.  Elizabeth Bentley worked with many communist leaders in New York and would have probably known these two.

If Elizabeth Bentley had any knowledge of the father of Lee Harvey Oswald as Emil Gardos that knowledge was probably gained before 1945 or, maybe afterward as she became involved with the FBI in determining who the communist were in NYC.  The Tippit phone call implies that the unknown caller was actually at the 77th Street and 2nd Avenue address and knew exactly who these men were. 

Elizabeth Bentley was born in New Milford which is about 45 miles from Hartford.  At the time of her death she probably was teaching at the Long Lane School for girls.  She began the job there in 1959.  This was a reform school for girls in Middletown, Conn., which is 16 miles south of Hartford.  In the end she developed abdominal cancer and had surgery at New Haven, about 30 miles south of Hartford, on Dec. 2, 1963 and died the following day on the 3^rd.

Bentley may have gone in the hospital 1 or 2 days before her surgery for pre-operative reasons. (Don’t know) It is possible she could be the unknown caller.  She was in the right location and just about the right time to make a phone call in New Haven or 30 miles away in Westport.  Any of the places mentioned above are connected by train, bus, and personal automobile and no more than an hour’s travel apart.

What would her motive be?  At this point in her life she suffered from depression, paranoia, and alcoholism.  She had turned against the communism and betrayed them, and just maybe she had turned against the government, particularly the FBI for much the same reasons.  She was once the star of the FBI during the McCarthy era.  But, not so in 1963.  She may have in the later part of her life felt abandoned and deserted by the people she had helped so much.

She may have felt that she had information that had to be exposed since President Kennedy was just assassinated.  And, she knew something about the alleged assassin Lee Harvey Oswald.

Of course most of this is speculation. My first candidate Mary Fuhrman may not have known Gardos and Blair, or any Oswalds during the 1948 period and prior.  I can find no connection between the Furhmans and the Gardos. 

So, this is an attempt to see how this flies and how far it goes.

[John Kowalski]

 

22 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Unless specifically "plugged" the call couldn't be traced (Long Distance would have involved an operator with possibly a record) yet would the caller know that?

 

David:

Interesting story about call traces but with the national security state's hunt for subversives they probably would have developed the ability to do so.

In 1963 long-distance calls would have a record because this additional charge would have to be paid by the telephone subscriber. The telephone companies also had the ability at that time to charge LD calls to another number. David Ferrie did this quite often, calling a number from somewhere else and having the LD charges added to his telephone bill. 

https://archive.org/details/1963longdistancecalls

Edited March 5, 2020 by John Kowalski

[David Josephs]

4 hours ago, John Butler said:

"So "a phone call" becomes "several calls"

This means to me the unknown woman had a compelling urge to divulge the information she had.  Perhaps, the death of Kennedy was horrific to her and she had to do something.  IMO, she didn't call the Tippits for their benefit.  She called to use them as a means to get her information out to someone.  I don't think she realistically believed that the Tippits would not report her call to the authorities or the newspapers.  It may have been her intention that the Tippits share that information.

John... if you highlight text in a post you will be prompted to "quote" that text so it shows up like yours in the box above... quoting others without this as you've been doing can get very confusing....  highlight and click - really helps the flow.

What you say here suggests forethought of intent from a literally scared-to-death woman... whereas that kind of intent feels more planned out than the thoughts of an agitated woman...

Can't imagine anyone thinking they could drop a bomb like that on M/M TIPPIT and it not create ripples and consequences - agree?

If so, it suggests to me part of a plan - Phillips was a Master at CI in the field, e.g. Alvarado in Mexico.  GAUDET may have even been part of the plan but that tangent can be discussed elsewhere...

Here we are 60 years later and no closer to the caller or the intent.... hate to say it but it once again feels more like a Rabbit hole from Alice than evidence which would lead to anything concrete....  we ought to remember that killing JFK would provide the communists virtually nothing in terms of a gain while risking heightened retaliation...

As weird as it may sound, EKDAHL was married in China, in 1925.  a Communist country in the making - and fully Communist by 1949.
Like the Russians, the FBI/CIA.ONI/MID/NSA/etc... kept tabs on the Chinese just as closely.

Just a few thoughts...

DJ

[John Kowalski]

John B:

She is a good candidate for the Tippit call. She certainly knew who the NYC communists were and probably knew or knew of Louis Weinstock.

[John Kowalski]

10 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

As weird as it may sound, EKDAHL was married in China, in 1925.  a Communist country in the making - and fully Communist by 1949.
Like the Russians, the FBI/CIA.ONI/MID/NSA/etc... kept tabs on the Chinese just as closely.

David:

Shanghai was at this time a center of international espionage. Shanghai was controlled by various foreign governments and I found it interesting that Eckdahl,  who would later be involved with LHO, lived there.

[John Kowalski]

On 3/4/2020 at 3:40 PM, David Josephs said:

On July 7 1947 "MARGUERITE EKDAHL" buys 101 San Saba while living at 1505 8th street.... but never lives there...

September 1947 - one of the strangest records I've ever seen related to the Oswalds.... Marge OSWALD divorced in May 1947 from Ekdahl... yet her name changes FROM Oswald to EKDAHL...  the is NEVER a "Lee Oswald" attending school in Tarrant County.

Georgia Bell - living across the street - sees a "short, fat woman with glasses and a young boy" living at 101 San Saba during the summer of '47.

David:

1947 then is the earliest appearance of Marguerite and Harvey. So much info about them is available after that date but not before. The only other record is the 1941 letter about M.Oswald and Nazis in New Jersey. Any ideas as to where we could look to find info on her prior to 1947? have you ever spoken to John A. about his search for her origins?

[David Josephs]

41 minutes ago, John Kowalski said:

David:

Shanghai was at this time a center of international espionage. Shanghai was controlled by various foreign governments and I found it interesting that Eckdahl,  who would later be involved with LHO, lived there.

Here's a couple things about China and Ekdahl....  his coming and going and then being in NY when "they" arrive.... the timeline betrays the lies of John and Robert related to the timeframe with Ekdahl.... where they were and where they lived....

[David Josephs]

14 minutes ago, John Kowalski said:

David:

Interesting story about call traces but with the national security state's hunt for subversives they probably would have developed the ability to do so.

In 1963 long-distance calls would have a record because this additional charge would have to be paid by the telephone subscriber. The telephone companies also had the ability at that time to charge LD calls to another number. David Ferrie did this quite often, calling a number from somewhere else and having the LD charges added to his telephone bill. 

https://archive.org/details/1963longdistancecalls

Makes sense John.   I'm fairly sure a trace was never even attempted, or if it was the report related to it is gone and buried....

Does the lack of follow-up mean they thought her serious and buried it or thought the story was about a crackpot caller... ??

From anyone outside the H&L world at the time the call sure would sound like a crank...  and only hold any meaning if it had a chance of being true, I'd think.

[David Josephs]

31 minutes ago, John Kowalski said:

David:

1947 then is the earliest appearance of Marguerite and Harvey. So much info about them is available after that date but not before. The only other record is the 1941 letter about M.Oswald and Nazis in New Jersey. Any ideas as to where we could look to find info on her prior to 1947? have you ever spoken to John A. about his search for her origins?

Only speculative discussions as to who she might be...  And really no idea how to begin...

Then again, it would be the perfect place though to hide an agent in plain sight... maybe that's why they've let her spout off all those years...

[John Butler]

Yep, that's a lot easier.

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Here we are 60 years later and no closer to the caller or the intent.... hate to say it but it once again feels more like a Rabbit hole from Alice than evidence which would lead to anything concrete....  we ought to remember that killing JFK would provide the communists virtually nothing in terms of a gain while risking heightened retaliation...

Truer words....

But, by going through this speculative exercise someone might see something, it might trigger something, or suggest to someone a new way to think.  I think Elizabeth Bentley is a fair candidate particularly so, or not so, depending on what can be found out about the last 3 days of her life.

This is an old topic on the Forum which goes back years.  We have added to, expanded on, and supplied new information concerning the Tippit call.  The last effort went wrong in a couple of ways and we have put the topic back on the right path.

Some one may wish to tackle this again and what we have done will be helpful.  What we have done may be helpful to someone in launching new areas to explore.  Can't think of what that might be, but am hopeful that someone might.