EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[John Butler]

I did get a response from Russ Geck.  I have just been waiting for his ok to publish his information:

"Hi, John.

Sorry I haven't gotten back to you sooner, but my mother is visiting me in Budapest for Christmas, and we have been very busy.

 

I was at a family gathering last Saturday when I saw your message about who you were and why you wanted to know about the Gardos family. We had a lot of laughs and good times talking about it (I read them your entire message).

 

You did not offend me in any way, although I thought the initial request was kind of brusque, but after hearing who you are and what you are trying to do, I understand it.

 

So, I am an "outsider." I am an American who is living in Budapest with the daughter of John Gardos, who died almost three years ago. Here is what I know or have been told.

 

Johnny (János aka "John" Gárdos) was born in the United States in Bessemer Township, Michigan, January 29, 1939 (I have a scan of his birth certificate if you would like it). He told me he moved back to Hungary just before his tenth birthday. Andi (his daughter) and I talked to him about this because we were interested in Andi having American citizenship through him, and there are specific rules as to how citizenship can be passed along based on when you were born and how long you lived in the United States.

 

If he was telling me the truth, he never went back to the United States after he returned to Hungary sometime in 1948. He told me stories about living through the 1956 revolution against the Soviets. He became a diplomat for the Hungarian government in approximately 1972, and was the commercial attache at Hungarian embassies in Tanzania, Nigeria and Yemen.

 

He told me he was a spy for the Hungarian government, but that that was expected of every Hungarian diplomat. To what extent that entailed, I do not know. His wife survives him (I was with her tonight and the night I read the message at the family gathering), and she was with him at the Tanzanian and Yemenian posts (not sure about Nigeria), and I can try and get more information about anything she might have known about his activities during his embassy posts.

 

So, long story short, Lee Harvey Oswald was shot and killed by Jack Ruby November 24, 1963. Gárdos János (John Gardos), son of Emil Gárdos and Grace Blair, died in March of 2017, leaving a wife, a daughter and a stepson behind.

 

If there's any way I can help you in this any more, I would be happy to help. I'm sure Johnny would not want history to remember him as JFK's killer in any way.

 

I am attaching a short historical document Andrea (John's daughter) and I prepared for a consultation with an immigration attorney about the possibility of her having American citizenship through her father. You probably already know most of it, but in case you haven't seen some of the links, I am providing it for you.  Best of luck in convincing people that Johnny wasn't Lee Harvey Oswald.

 

All My Best,

Russ Geck

And,

"A Brief History of John Lesley Gardos

 

• Born in Bessemer Township, Michigan, January 29, 1939.

• Parents were Emil Gardos and Grace Blair. Emil was a naturalized US citizen from Hungary, but had his citizenship revoked for Communist activities in 1934. He was deported from the US “sometime in the 1940s” according to FBI documents, although it is possible he was in the US up through 1950. (see footnotes page 979) https://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.hu/&httpsredir=1&article=1152&context=facpubs

• John Gardos left the US probably in late 1948 (he said it was shortly before his tenth birthday) for Hungary because of the father’s deportation.

• Became an Hungarian diplomat in approximately 1972, posted as the commercial attache at Hungarian embassies in Tanzania, Nigeria and Yemen.

• Mother Grace Blair-Gardos visited family in the US in 1964, and wanted to return to the US to live, and was granted a visa within one hour by the Hungarian government in 1966, but ultimately did not leave Hungary, in all likelihood because she wanted to bring her son along and likely couldn’t secure passage (FBI Operation Solo) https://archive.org/stream/FBI-Operation-Solo/100-HQ-428091-Serial5842-5915_djvu.txt

• After the fall of Communism in the Soviet bloc countries, John Gardos applied for and received a US passport. It was issued August 6, 1992, just six months before his daughter, Andrea, turned 18 years old.

A photo of an aged John Gardos:

[Jim Hargrove]

That’s wonderful, John!  I was really afraid your question would drive Mr. Geck away, but it seems to have been just the ticket.  Would you now want to ask him a question along the lines of Paul J’s suggestions? Here’s what Paul wrote on the previous page.

Quote

 

Ask him if he has any reason to believe that Emil Gardos, Grace Gardos, or Fred Blair could have been temporary foster caretakers in 1945 -47 for any small children refugees from Eastern Europe. Were they at all the type of people who might have been especially concerned with the plight of refugee orphans after WWII? Did they have any connection to any organizations that might have had such hunanitarian interests? When Emil and Grace (and presumably young John) were all living in Yorkville, did any of Emil's activities involve anything that led our mysterious woman caller to conclude (erroneously) that Emil was the biological parent of a Russian-speaking little boy from Europe?

Did Fred Blair live or visit Yorkville at any time in the 1940"s?

Do Russ Geck or his wife have any information about Louis Weinstock? 

 

AND

Quote

… ask him if he has any information about any connection, no matter how tenuous or brief,  between Emil Gardos and/or Grace Gardos and/or Fred Blair and any small boy  (besides his own biological son John) in Yorkville in the 1940's. Could any of them have been a caretaker, a foster parent, a temporary custodian, an attendant, etc. to provide refuge for any little boy or boys for any duration in the 1940's?

You might even send him a copy of the FBI report.  This was dynamite research and I thank you for it, and no doubt we all do.

[John Butler]

Thanks Jim,

I did notify Russ Geck that there were some folks on the Forum that would like to ask him and his wife some questions about the Tippit Call and thoughts concerning it.  I'm waiting for a response on that.   I've given Russ a link to this thread and how to check into what happens in the Forum.  I also explained a little about the Harvey and Lee idea and why we were researching the Gardos and Blairs so much. 

I'm not sure how much he knows about the Kennedy assassination and the  multi-lines research on the assassination. 

What do you think about this most recent development?  Does this do away with the notions of the Hungarian origins of Harvey Oswald.  My thinking is that it does.  But, I agree with you and Paul that more research is in order to make sure that is so or not so.  My personal opinion is that once removed from what the FBI document says we are on mainly assumptive grounds.  If the idea of LHO not being the son of Emil Gardos is correct then that leaves little to base the origins of Harvey Oswald into a Hungarian background.  He could be a Russian immigrant or the descendant of some White Russian immigrants into this country.  Oswald was accepted into the White Russian community of Dallas with no apparent objection to his communist background.  And, Marina was also.  I find that strange because of her family legacy and it wasn't long since she joined the upper levels of the communist hierarchy in Minsk.

Your opinion is always appreciated.

       

Edited December 29, 2019 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

John,

I wouldn’t even begin to draw any conclusions until we see if Mr. Geck has any insights into the FBI report of the anonymous Tippit call. The fact that the FBI obscured the name of a communist activist that surely was well known to them--and that they buried the report for three decades--suggests the anonymous caller wasn’t entirely bonkers.  Paul J’s questions seemed well thought out.

Again, megathanks for this informative research.

[David Josephs]

Seems you’re jumping to conclusions John....

One pulled thread does not lead to Hungary... does not change where Pic lived, where the child and mom stayed, and the Hungarian connections.

I suggest we spend a little time on WHEN Harvey comes into existence and WHERE.

The boy in the San Saba car, dog, Marge photos is Lee.  Pic took them, so for him to deny knowledge of San Saba is strange.

I see Lee and mom going to NY and Harvey and Caretaker leaving after the bizarre situation with housekeeper Louise Robertson.

The idea of the NY Gardos’ caring for foster children brought over from Hungary is interesting and would be a great cover for CIA related activity in that vein.

Maybe Ekdahl is the dividing line... idk.  Maybe the trip to Boston...  Just seems the WC completely screwed up 1945, 46, 47 on purpose with regards to John Edward and Robert and where the Oswald’s/Ekdahl’s were and who bought which house....  2220 Thomas plays into this as well.

Harvey spoke Russian AND English meaning he was raised on one or the other and learned one of them... many see Harvey’s writing and the way he speaks only to conclude English was a 2nd language.  If he was raised speaking Russian and then stopped for a while, picking it up at classes in the Marines would be like riding a bicycle.....

Anyway, I don’t get the impression John knew the caretaker or Harvey in NY, that he visited his real mom.  The “break” between Lee and John seems abrupt and out of place... John Edward’s contribution?

 

 

 

 

[John Butler]

30 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Seems you’re jumping to conclusions John....

One pulled thread does not lead to Hungary... does not change where Pic lived, where the child and mom stayed, and the Hungarian connections.

I suggest we spend a little time on WHEN Harvey comes into existence and WHERE.

The boy in the San Saba car, dog, Marge photos is Lee.  Pic took them, so for him to deny knowledge of San Saba is strange.

I see Lee and mom going to NY and Harvey and Caretaker leaving after the bizarre situation with housekeeper Louise Robertson.

The idea of the NY Gardos’ caring for foster children brought over from Hungary is interesting and would be a great cover for CIA related activity in that vein.

Maybe Ekdahl is the dividing line... idk.  Maybe the trip to Boston...  Just seems the WC completely screwed up 1945, 46, 47 on purpose with regards to John Edward and Robert and where the Oswald’s/Ekdahl’s were and who bought which house....  2220 Thomas plays into this as well.

Harvey spoke Russian AND English meaning he was raised on one or the other and learned one of them... many see Harvey’s writing and the way he speaks only to conclude English was a 2nd language.  If he was raised speaking Russian and then stopped for a while, picking it up at classes in the Marines would be like riding a bicycle.....

Anyway, I don’t get the impression John knew the caretaker or Harvey in NY, that he visited his real mom.  The “break” between Lee and John seems abrupt and out of place... John Edward’s contribution?

 

 

 

 

Thanks David,

I floated the idea to get you guy's opinion on it.  There are still unanswered questions regarding the Tippit call and other issues.  This is my thinking.  Rejecting John Gardos as Harvey Oswald leads to the acceptance that there is false information in the Tippit Call document.  Therefore, the document would be rejected as over all factual and relevant as to the other information in it.  With false information in the document would the document be considered as evidence in court?  Would it be allowed?  With that in mind would anything thought about the FBI document be anything other than speculation? 

What needs to be balanced against that is what the FBI did with the document.  Also, other information in the document has proven to be factual. 

The mention of Emil Gardos, Fred Blair, and Louis Weinstock together working on communist goals at a New York address indicates some knowledge of what these people were doing during the late 1940s.  1947 begins the period of the second red scare and is most likely the time Fred Blair went underground.  And, he may have done that in New York.

There is some indication in the records that Emil and Grace Gardos did not leave the US until 1949-1950.  Emil Gardos, a newspaper editor, is talking to fellow communists in Buffalo, NY in 1950.  Or, that was reported to the government in 1950.

As far as looking into the origins of Harvey Oswald, I wouldn't know where to start.  I thought we had something with the Tippit Call.  You seem to be doing great work on this idea in San Saba.  "The boy in the San Saba car, dog, Marge photos is Lee.  Pic took them, so for him to deny knowledge of San Saba is strange."  If you can could you post this photo or photos?

As far as I can see, your work on Harvey in the summer and fall of 1947 suggests things begin there with the first appearance of Harvey.  What about before that?  I wouldn't know where to begin.   

         

Edited December 29, 2019 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

59 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

The boy in the San Saba car, dog, Marge photos is Lee.  Pic took them, so for him to deny knowledge of San Saba is strange.

Marguerite Ekdahl's purchased 101 San Saba on July 7, 1947, but she and her three boys lived at 1505 8th Ave. in Fort Worth.  If they EVER lived at San Saba in Benbrook, it was very briefly.  There is surely a reason Dulles adjourned when Robert started talking about San Saba, never to return to the subject.

Going through Georgia Bell’s memories, it sure sounds to me that it was Harvey and his caretaker “mom” in residence in Benbrook in 1947.  That house right “across from” Stripling School where “Marguerite” kept stuff was surely 2220 Thomas Place.

[John Kowalski]

4 hours ago, David Josephs said:

I suggest we spend a little time on WHEN Harvey comes into existence and WHERE.

David:

Should this not also include Harvey's mother?

[David Josephs]

58 minutes ago, John Kowalski said:

David:

Should this not also include Harvey's mother?

Be even more intriguing if they were mother and son....  I don’t see that here...

But yes indeed John, that woman is key, yet the records of her time is virtually impossible to Authenticate. 
We do know her testimony about her own life events is full of conflict.  That she was not the wife of Ekdahl or any Oswald.

You think She did her patriotic duty and got screwed like Harvey?

[Jim Hargrove]

To John Butler….

Congratulations, again! 

It is obvious that Russ Geck and his wife by marriage to John (Janos) Gardos’s daughter may possibly be the most important LHO witness to emerge in decades. Please, will you consider asking Mr. Geck the questions offered above by Paul J?

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

To John Butler….

Congratulations, again! 

It is obvious that Russ Geck and his wife by marriage to John (Janos) Gardos’s daughter may possibly be the most important LHO witness to emerge in decades. Please, will you consider asking Mr. Geck the questions offered above by Paul J?

Jim,

No problem on that.  I have already asked him if he would answer questions from Forum members.  I'm just waiting for a reply.  I haven't forgotten Paul's questions and your concerns.  I'm just waiting for a reply. 

Next time I email I'll ask if I can give his email address to you and then you can correspond.  I understand his importance to the Harvey and Lee question and don't want to do anything to antagonize Russ Geck and lose an opportunity to question him further.

[John Kowalski]

18 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Be even more intriguing if they were mother and son....  I don’t see that here...

But yes indeed John, that woman is key, yet the records of her time is virtually impossible to Authenticate. 
We do know her testimony about her own life events is full of conflict.  That she was not the wife of Ekdahl or any Oswald.

You think She did her patriotic duty and got screwed like Harvey?

David:

I should have said "mother."

Been researching her and it has been tough going. Her origins are as difficult to locate and as important as Harvey's origins.

Not sure if she did her patriotic duty because if she played a knowing part of Oswald project, then why did she not say anything to the Warren Commission or the press about the Oswald project? Do you believe she did her patriotic duty?

She had a connection to Keith Thompson who was connected to far-right US politics, another interesting fact given her connection to the Oswald project.

[John Kowalski]

Does anyone think that Harvey could have been Marguerite's real son and they both went underwent an identity change?

[John Kowalski]

Jim:

Has John A. reviewed Marguerite Oswald's papers?

[Jim Hargrove]

John,

I don’t know, but he does believe that the real Marguerite Claverie Oswald was born on July 19, 1907 in New Orleans, so there is probably some sort of birth record.  He noted that the FBI “intentionally avoided any company, any employer, and any co-worker who may have known and/or worked with Marguerite Claverie Oswald after 1954,” because of conflicts with the “Marguerite Oswald” who testified to the WC. That probably means Hoover was aware of the chicanery.  In 1955, the phony Marguerite was fired by Dolly Shoe for repeatedly refusing to fill out detailed personal information required by Dolly’s insurance company.