David Josephs Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 The man least considered in my book is Vaganov. It was reported by HART that a red convertible was parked in front of RUBY's apartment at the time of the Tippit Murder.... One has to wonder how it was that a DPD patrolman or someone?? just happened to be at Ruby's between 12:30 and 1:30? Who would be sitting in Oak Cliff at Ruby's at 1:15pm when the Tippit call comes in? 91 Ptm. W.D. Mentzel and Ptm. J.W. Courson ??? Notice too how close VAGANOV lived to the action.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted February 10, 2020 Author Share Posted February 10, 2020 David, That is interesting, and Vaganov does bear a resemblance to Classic Oswald®, but I don’t see how he could have had the long history going back to elementary school of sharing the LHO identity, or how he could be the man who began setting up Oswald as the patsy in the weeks preceding the assassination. According to Bill Kelly in this Ed Forum thread, Vaganov didn’t even move to Dallas until November 5, 1963, when the effort to set up LHO for the hit was already well underway. For example, one of the many Sports Drome appearances was on October 26. The Statler-Hilton charade was on October 31. The Morgan’s Gun Shop and Downtown Lincoln Mercury appearances were on November 2, still three days before Bill Kelly said Vaganov arrived in Dallas. If Mr Kelly is correct about the arrival date, Vaganov was not our man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 Jim and David. Didn't our man Harvey run a series of safe houses in the Oak Cliff area? Would Vaganov be associated with that? Might be nice to have a spare double around if needed for some purpose for further incrimination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted February 11, 2020 Author Share Posted February 11, 2020 John, You're referring to the Agency's William Harvey, right? If there is evidence he ran safe houses in and around Oak Cliff, that's news to me. Can you provide any more info? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said: John, You're referring to the Agency's William Harvey, right? If there is evidence he ran safe houses in and around Oak Cliff, that's news to me. Can you provide any more info? There's a thread on the Forum about this from several years ago: No, not William Harvey, but Harvey Oswald. I may be overstating here, but I believe Oswald was involved or knew about these safe houses. I became involved with reading this because of Tammi True. I was working on information about Tammi True in relation to the Babushka Woman. She appears to be the BB Woman in the Zapruder film, IMO. She's replaced by the babushka, tan coat lady in other media. You can actually see this replacement in the (if memory serves) Muchmore film. The little inset comment and photo appears to be about Virgilio Gonsalez. Scratch out Virgilio and replace with Manuel Orcarberrio. I just posted info to David Josephs about Gonsalez adding to his comparison of Oswald Doubles. I probably need to refresh my memory of this thread. It is interesting. I'm glad I went back to this article to re-read. I've found another alleged Oswald Double (mentioned as looking like Oswald) to show David for his comment. I would guess you can say this Orcarberrio could pass as Oswald based on something from my background. My skin color is generally the same color as Oswald, but after a year in Texas my skin color was the same as Orcarberrio. I was stopped twice by the Border Patrol to have my ID checked as a suspected illegal. I got a kick out of that. Edited February 11, 2020 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 I thought I read that this little building was very cramped and divided into rooms.... At the bottom of this post are some photos offered up as an Alpha 66 meeting that Oswald attended (if I remember correctly)... from 3114 Harlendale ... (Walthers wrote a note about Harlendale)... taking how Oswald stands the only person that seems to resemble our man Ozzie is "enhanced" Beckley could very well have been a safe house, I guess.... yet it would make much more sense if this "safe house" was actually where Oswald was really living at the time... THE 1026 NORTH BECKLEY STREET SAFE HOUSE (from the link) Jack White has supplied an address for this safe house as being 1026 North Beckley. That is exactly the same address as the rooming house in which Lee Harvey Oswald was renting a room at the time of the assassination. Jack says that the safe house is a separate building on the same property, in back of the main house, that it faces an alley, and was "only about 50 feet from Oswald's room." Jack says he was taken there and shown the place by Jim Marrs, who had been shown it by Tosh PlumleeTosh Plumlee has said the following in pertinent part: "When I later learned that Oswald had been arrested as the lone assassin, I remembered having met him...in Dallas at an Oak Cliff safe house on North Beckley Street run by Alpha 66's Hernandez group, who had worked out of Miami prior to the assassination." In another place, Plumlee said: "I went to another safe house and that safe house was directly behind where Oswald had rented a room, in the alley, and I carved my initials on the draining board up there at that time and that was a gun running operation and Oswald was renting the front house. I saw him there briefly but did not talk to him." In another reference to this North Beckley Street Safe House, Plumlee introduces a reference to "Zang's [sic] Blvd" in association with "Hernandez" and "Alpha 66," something which caused some confusion temporarily. But N. Zang Boulevard diagonally intersects N. Beckley Street very close to 1026 N. Beckley Street, so this is being interpreted as a cross-street reference to the same safe house. [NOTE: As Zang Boulevard continues northeast from N. Beckely Street, it becomes Houston Street Viaduct, which becomes S. Houston Street, through Dealey Plaza.] So I gather the room identified as Oswald's - with the 2 doors - is on the left, bottom room next to the living room ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) "But N. Zang Boulevard diagonally intersects N. Beckley Street very close to 1026 N. Beckley Street, so this is being interpreted as a cross-street reference to the same safe house. [NOTE: As Zang Boulevard continues northeast from N. Beckely Street, it becomes Houston Street Viaduct, which becomes S. Houston Street, through Dealey Plaza.] " Interesting. Is this the bus route that Oswald would take to work at the TSBD? From Ed Ledoux: "Mary Hollies: The girl in the window For a number of years the Sixth Floor Museum has conducted an oral history project that interviews individuals and lets them explain how the JFK assassination affected their lives. In January 2011 the museum posted a conversation with Mary Hollies. Ms. Hollies was a young French Canadian that travelled from Montreal and landed a job in the Texas School Book Depository as an underpaid, inventory stock clerk with the Scott Foresman Company in June, 1963. Dallas was quite a change for her. She referred to it as “Hicksville” after leaving a cultural center like Montreal. At the time, Dallas was small, most of the individuals that she met were not forward thinking and the only form of public transportation was the bus. Every morning, she would take the Beckley Street bus downtown and disembark at the corner of Main and Houston. In the fall of 1963 Lee Oswald began riding the same bus to work and eventually the two struck up a friendship. When asked, Ms. Hollies stated “The only one I knew that worked for the School Book Depository was Lee Oswald.” She spoke with Oswald every work day leading up to the assassination and the story she has to tell is in a word “stunning”. After 47 years of silence, her story answers so many questions about Lee Oswald and in turn, raises so many more…" Could the Beckley bus route turn into the Zang to Houston route? Mary Hollies poses a number of problems with her later testimony. What she said in 1963 does not match in many cases what she said in 2011. First off, in 1963 she said she was in the window on the 4th floor. And, that is where she is in a photo of that time. Is it an altered photo? She says in 2011 she was on he 5th floor. If that's the case both she and Betty Foster lied. She mentions seeing or hearing Bonnie Ray Williams leave the elevator and clump across the floor on the 5th floor. If memory serves, this is directly before the shooting. Trying to answer my question: Edited February 11, 2020 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Bojczuk Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 According to Laura Kittrell, then, the second 'Oswald' she encountered looked "different" from the first but also "the same". He had "the same general outline and coloring and build" but differed in that he was "slouchy" and "kind of unkempt", and he was louder than the first. In other words, the impostor was a generic young, slim, white man, just like the real-life Oswald. That doesn't get us very far in answering the questions I asked. Let's try again: (a) According to 'Harvey and Lee' doctrine, were 'Harvey' and 'Lee' identical in appearance, or merely similar? (b) If they were identical, how likely is it that two unrelated boys from different parts of the world could have been predicted to grow up to look identical? (Answer: not very likely at all.) (c) If they were not identical, which physical features allow us to distinguish 'Harvey' from 'Lee'? Their heights? Whether their shoulders were sloping or not sloping? The size or shape of their noses, mouths, ears, chins, eyes, eyebrows, hair, or some other feature? How, exactly, did the relevant features differ? No answers? It's all down to guesswork, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted February 12, 2020 Author Share Posted February 12, 2020 As always, Mr. Bojczuk argues with his own mischaracterizations of the evidence for two Oswalds. Pretending to post a link to “Harvey and Lee doctrine," he actually links to Greg Parker’s website, which attempts, mostly unsuccessfully, to debunk H&L. Don’t be fooled by Mr. Bojczuk’s misrepresentations. The real “Harvey and Lee doctrine” is here: HARVEY AND LEE As is often the case, between insults Mr. Bojczuk insists that I do this or that, or that I have only these or those options, or he insists that I answer questions that he already knows the answers to. He knows, for example, that there is substantial evidence that one Oswald as an adult stood 5’9” tall while the other was 5’11” and twenty pounds or so heavier. I have shown him this evidence before, but now he seems unaware of it. In regard to youthful vs. adult appearances, Mr. Bojczuk should know full well that it is often quite easy, for example, to identify images of Holllywood movie stars in their youth because the similarities to their adult appearance, despite all the years of growth, are so striking. He should know this. Let me again ask Mr. Bojczuk to explain the observations of Laura Kittrell and the evidence for two Lee Harvey Oswalds active nearly 400 miles apart on Oct. 3 and 4, 1963. Below is my post from two days ago that Mr. Bojczuk neglected to answer. Will he answer this time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted February 12, 2020 Author Share Posted February 12, 2020 On 2/10/2020 at 8:55 AM, Jim Hargrove said: As he usually does, Mr. Bojczuk misrepresents the Harvey and Lee evidence and then argues against his own misrepresentation. Let’s take a look at a couple of little pieces of evidence. Texas Employment Commission employee Laura Kittrell met the two Oswalds in October 1963 and described their similarities and differences on many occasions, including in an 1978 interview with the HSCA’s Gaeton Fonzi. According to Mr. Fonzi, Ms. Kittrell felt the second Oswald she met “looked the same… the same general outline and coloring and build, but there was something so different in his bearing….” Ms. Kittrell made every effort to inform authorities in a timely manner about her encounter with the two Oswalds. As John A. said in a 1997 speech, Ms. Kittrell “gave a thirty-page statement to the U.S. Attorney in Dallas. Her statement was hand carried to the Warren Commission by the Secret Service. But her 30-page statement and subsequent 90-page manuscript in which she discusses her interviews of the two Oswalds, were ultimately ignored and suppressed.” The full 90-page manuscript can be read at the online John Armstrong Collection at Baylor University. Ms. Kittrell interviewed the first Oswald on October 3, 1963, and that night this Oswald apparently stayed at the Downtown Dallas YMCA. Remarkably, on the very same evening Oswald also appeared to numerous witnesses at radio station KOPY in Alice, Texas, nearly 400 miles south of Dallas. This Oswald was told to come back to the radio station the following day, which he did. Some 17 witnesses more or less confirm the visit of this Oswald (some seeing his “family”) to southeast Texas, far from Dallas. It even made the Associated Press. John Armstrong wrote, “Both the FBI and Warren Commission were aware that "Lee Harvey Oswald" could not have been in both Alice, Texas and Dallas, Texas on October 3rd and 4th at the same time. Chief Justice Earl Warren held up publication of the Warren Report until the FBI completed their "investigation" of the incident at Alice, Texas, because of potentially damaging political issues.” [H&L p. 710] For decades, the best write-up on that Alice, Texas incident has been Chris Courtwright’s fine article, Oswald in Aliceland? A Tale of Two Days: A Tale of Two Oswalds Will Mr. Bojczuk provide an explanation for the above this time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W. Tracy Parnell Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) I won't waste much time here with this, because the H&L theory is not worthy of that at this point. But, Jim Hargrove and all of the H&L supporters have been provided with an explanation for multiple sightings of "Oswalds" time and time again. They don't want to accept the explanation so they don't. The recent case of Richard Matt and David Sweat who escaped from prison in upstate NY illustrates the situation. This case was made popular by a recent Showtime series. When the pair escaped, the police asked the public for help in locating them. Over 2000 tips came in. Exactly 2 of these tips were valid. The rest of the tips came from individuals who could not have seen the pair since they never left a small geographical area. Some of these individuals are sincere but mistaken. Others are not telling the truth. People lie every day for any number of reasons. So, in any high-profile case, there will be false sightings. Police and professional investigators know this. The H&L people do not or pretend they do not. If someone had a massive amount of time on their hands, it would be very instructive to do an analysis of all the Oswald sightings. What you could end up with is not a 2 "Oswalds" theory, but probably a 100 "Oswalds" theory if you were so inclined. You may carry on with your misinformation campaign if you choose, but those are the facts. Edited February 12, 2020 by W. Tracy Parnell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 1 hour ago, W. Tracy Parnell said: I won't waste much time here with this For someone who "wont waste the time" you sure spend a helluva lot of time trying to debunk the evidence with silly speculation and baseless conclusions.... this conversation is not about anonymous tips WTP.... the people we are talking about here were within arms distance of the men... No need to belittle that which we already know you disdain... there were not "100's" of Oswalds WTP, just a few people who as I've shown, look very similar to the Oswald Ruby killed. Vaganov was driving around in a red convertible on Nov 22 - and lo and behold, we have DPD HART telling us about the red convertible parked in front of Ruby's at the time of the Tippit murder..... amazing coincidence, right? How many witnesses do YOU need to the 2 Oswalds being arrested - one out the front, one out the back ??? How many witnesses do you need to place Oswald in Ping Tung while also receiving treatment for an STD contracted "in the line of duty"... ... or that one Oswald is a "radar operator" while the other is a Aircraft mechanic? ... closer to home then - the man's story remains the same - Julia bursts into tears when asked about selling a ticket to the man dragged out the front, Butch took his ticket, sells him popcorn while another patron - Mr. Davis - observes this man's comings and goings PRIOR to 1:15pm. Burroughs said that he saw two different people arrested in the Texas Theater. He saw Oswald's arrest and then, "three or four minutes later," watched as the Dallas police arrested "an Oswald lookalike." Burroughs added that the second man arrested "looked almost like Oswald, like he was his brother or something." Bernard Haire, owner of a hobby shop two doors east of the theater, saw the police escort a young man who he thought was LEE Oswald out the rear of the theater. It is truly sad that you can't begin to trust your own eyes.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said: According to Laura Kittrell, then, the second 'Oswald' she encountered looked "different" from the first but also "the same". He had "the same general outline and coloring and build" but differed in that he was "slouchy" and "kind of unkempt", and he was louder than the first. In other words, the impostor was a generic young, slim, white man, just like the real-life Oswald. That doesn't get us very far in answering the questions I asked. Let's try again: (a) According to 'Harvey and Lee' doctrine, were 'Harvey' and 'Lee' identical in appearance, or merely similar? (b) If they were identical, how likely is it that two unrelated boys from different parts of the world could have been predicted to grow up to look identical? (Answer: not very likely at all.) (c) If they were not identical, which physical features allow us to distinguish 'Harvey' from 'Lee'? Their heights? Whether their shoulders were sloping or not sloping? The size or shape of their noses, mouths, ears, chins, eyes, eyebrows, hair, or some other feature? How, exactly, did the relevant features differ? No answers? It's all down to guesswork, isn't it? I will point out that Mr. Bojczuk should research the points he is asking about in past Forum threads. These questions have been debated and explained several times. The answers are there. Just go look. W. Tracy Parnell does much the same thing with this statement: "Some of these individuals are sincere but mistaken. Others are not telling the truth. People lie every day for any number of reasons. So, in any high-profile case, there will be false sightings. Police and professional investigators know this. The H&L people do not or pretend they do not. If someone had a massive amount of time on their hands, it would be very instructive to do an analysis of all the Oswald sightings. What you could end up with is not a 2 "Oswalds" theory, but probably a 100 "Oswalds" theory if you were so inclined." Both of these individuals are seeking to create dissention in the ranks and cast doubt on those who find the Harvey and Lee notion creditable. They will eventually leave this thread dissatisfied. This has happened before and in this thread. Under the assumption of reasonable doubt you can have a dissenting opinion on certain things, but continue to have a strong belief in the main theory. In science when a scientist tests his data statistically he will choose the .05 or .01 confidence levels. The .05 confidence level says that the data tested should be 95% correct. This I believe (I may be wrong) is what is used in a court as a standard of guilt. Jim Hargrove and John Armstrong say that Lee Oswald was probably never in the Soviet Union. They present evidence to back up their ideas. What they present is reasonable. I believe something different. That doesn't mean I find the Harvey and Lee ideas false. On the contrary my dissenting view strengthens my belief in Harvey and Lee. I could ask Mr. Bojczuk who is in this photo. But, that is rhetorical. Of course, he will say Lee Harvey Oswald. IMO, he would be correct. In is my belief that this is Lee Oswald with Marina in the Soviet Union. He would base his opinion on what he theorizes and believes is the evidence, and I would base my view on the personal characteristics of Harvey and Lee. I have to say ditto to David Josephs prior post. All of what he says means Harvey Oswald had to die. The conspirators could not allow Harvey to live and have a trial. Edited February 12, 2020 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted February 12, 2020 Author Share Posted February 12, 2020 1 hour ago, W. Tracy Parnell said: You may carry on with your misinformation campaign if you choose, but those are the facts. This is NOT a misinformation campaign, and Mr. Parnell's statement that it is (and the clear inference that I am lying) is against forum rules. From Mr. Gordon's "Terms of Use:" Quote No member is allowed to make personal insults with regard to another member OR with respect to fellow members opinions. No member is allowed to accuse a fellow member of lying. Mr. Parnell seems to believe that all the Harvey and Lee evidence is comprised of mistaken eyewitness observations. That is simply not the case. There is a tremendous amount of evidence based on written documents. For proof, just see the very first page of this very thread. Mr. Parnell never, ever, argues the real evidence. He just claims that someone else, somewhere else, has debunked it. How brave of him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted February 12, 2020 Author Share Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) 18 minutes ago, John Butler said: Jim Hargrove and John Armstrong say that Lee Oswald was probably never in the Soviet Union. They present evidence to back up their ideas. What they present is reasonable. I believe something different. That doesn't mean I find the Harvey and Lee ideas false. On the contrary my dissenting view strengthens my belief in Harvey and Lee. John, I know you understand our position, but just to make sure no readers are confused, John A. and I believe that the man killed by Jack Ruby, the accused assassin of J.D. Tippit and JFK, was indeed in the Soviet Union. Our point is that this man was not born with the name "Lee Harvey Oswald." He assumed (and for a time shared) that identity with the man born as Lee Harvey Oswald. Edited February 12, 2020 by Jim Hargrove Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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