Mark Zaid, JFK and Trump

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

WN, 

I don't know if you will understand this, but this kind of stuff sounds a lot like a guy named Tommy Graves and his so called "active measures".

I am not a closed minded person.  But the problem with what you just wrote is simple: everything Mueller tried to dig up about the Russians and the 2016 election turned to mush.  The guy spent two years and came up pretty much empty handed.  The stuff he did come up with was  shown to be chimerical by authors like Ray McGovern and Gareth Porter.

And the people he manhandled, like George Papadopoulos,, in my view--one you look at the circumstances-- did not at all deserve their fates. 

Here is another example:  https://consortiumnews.com/2018/10/10/the-shaky-case-that-russia-manipulated-social-media-to-tip-the-2016-election/

Here is another, on the so called server hack: https://consortiumnews.com/2019/03/13/vips-muellers-forensics-free-findings/

(Please read these, they are some of the best things ever written on this subject.  Not colored by MSM nuttiness.)

I could go on and on with the paucity of evidence that Mueller produced in two years.  But let me point to the one I think was the most telling: Carter Page. If there was one guy who you would have thought could have been easy prey, Page would be it. It never happened.  I think it never happened because then the whole charade of that smelly Steele Dossier would have been exposed in court.  Along with the FBI's reliance on it for their FISA case against him.  Adam Schiff tried to hide that part of the case for a long, long time. Now we know why.

Ukraine, for the reasons I outlined above, is a different kettle of fish.  We shall see.

 

PS When did Russia move to annex Ukraine?  Putin had a great opportunity, but he did not.

 

 

Jim,

       Putin annexed the (Ukrainian) Crimea, and has been waging a border war in the Donbas region of eastern Ukraine in recent years.

      As for Mueller's investigation, let's not forget that Trump and his 2016 campaign associates persistently lied and stonewalled it from beginning to end.  Paul Manafort even continued to lie about his 2016 contacts with Konstantin Kilimnik AFTER his plea deal to cooperate with Robert Mueller!  And Trump adamantly refused to talk to Robert Mueller-- finally submitting some lawyerly written answers that consisted almost entirely of, "I don't remember."   (Odd for a stable genius who claims to have "one of the great memories.")

       Mueller documented ample evidence of Trump's campaign "colluding" with the Kremlin, and at least ten counts of obstruction of justice-- but was strictly prohibited by Barr's DOJ from indicting a sitting POTUS.   Trump's 2016 Campaign Manager, Paul Manafort, who worked for the Kremlin in Ukraine for years, will most likely die in prison.  Manafort's lobbying partner, Roger Stone, may share the same fate.

     Don, Jr. -- who met with Kremlin lawyer Veselnitskaya in the June 2016 Trump Tower meeting-- also refused to talk to Mueller.

     As for the Steele Dossier, much of it has, in fact, been verified by now.  And let's not forget that Oleg Erovinkin-- thought to be one of Steele's main sources (from his tenure as head of MI6's Russia desk) was found dead in his car in Moscow right after Putin learned about the Dossier.

      One thing is obvious.   In addition to aggressively obstructing the Mueller investigation, and the disclosure of its most damning details, Trump has repeatedly denied the fact that Russia hacked our elections !

      How do you explain those facts?

[James DiEugenio]

We know what happened with the June 2016 meeting.  It was about emails.  This whole chimera of Russia  having HRC's emails.  It was the same thing the FBI used to snooker George P.

I don't even want to talk about the Steele Dossier.  Its very simple.  If it had been verified then Mueller would have used it in court.  He did not.  And he avoided the Carter Page case because of that.

Question: Was congress prohibited from indicting Trump through Mueller?   No.  Did they?  Mueller was such a weak witness how could they have done it?

As per Putin and these so called murders.  Kind of reminds me of A Texan Looks at Lyndon, and the beginning of all those murders LBJ was accused of.  Well, that did not pan out as well as it should have right?  Well, here look at some real journalism again as in how in one instance at least, they created a role for Putin.

https://consortiumnews.com/2017/10/28/guardians-of-the-magnitsky-myth/

And this film documentary has not been shown in the USA.  The director started it by thinking Putin was in on it.  Turns out he was not.  Browder wanted into Russia.  Putin tried to curtail the looting of Russia begun under Yeltsin.

The MSM has been utterly horrendous on this RG issue.  Its a disgrace.  

And BTW, I consider you one of the brightest people on this forum.  Intelligent and erudite.

 

 

Edited October 16, 2019 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

Is Bolton the second whistleblower?

 

[Dennis Berube]

10 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Putin annexed Crimea and fortified Russian forces in the Donbass region.

This is not correct and is exactly what the corporate democrats project. In reality, the us led a coup in ukraine in a story that goes back to at least world war 2. Crimea has a large russian population and voted to join russia by something like 95%. https://consortiumnews.com/2016/07/16/the-new-cold-wars-frontline-in-crimea

 

Your attacking someone who has never voted for a republican in his life and i have supported tulsi gabbard since her trip to syria which i believe parallels JFKs early 1950s trip to saigon with edmund guillion. She came back and spoke the truth and has been suppressed by her own party ever since while the rest of the party continues with this pro corporate propaganda.

The latest ukraine gate stuff is an entirely different story. The chairman of the house intel committee (schiff) is already conducting a suspicious investigation and fiona hill has been rumored to have ties to hunter biden. It'll be interesting to see what happens but the bottomline is this, does anyone here think Pence is going to improve anything? My take is that pence would be a blank check for the “deep state”. At least trump occasionally goes against these people, if only by mistake and not good intent. I think the Wall street democrats realize they cannot put biden or even warren against trump and win, but they could beat pence. Seeing they refuse to endorse Bernie or Tulsi(to put it lightly), the impeachment is a smart move if they can pull it off.
Regardless, history tells us that the removal of a president is almost always a bad thing. Hatred of trump is one thing, believing the state department line on Syria is another. But then again, if that truth was allowed out, Tulsi would suddenly look very different. Very similar to how JFK looked regarding Algeria in 1962. 

[James DiEugenio]

Pelosi was smart in not jumping on the Schiff bandwagon initially.

Because politically, now the impeachment proceeding will play out closer to the election.  Which is what I think she wanted from the start.   

I do not think it will succeed, since the GOP will not vote for it.  But it should soften up Trump enough for the Dems to win with that 24/7 spectacle going on in the background.

To answer your question Dennis, I agree that Pence probably is the worst case scenario.

Putin annexed Crimea?   And he's helping those in Donbass.  OMG.  This is why I have CV on ignore.  He's like the NY Times on this. The people who took control of Ukraine in 2014 are the followers of the neo Nazi Bandera. They murdered scores, if not hundreds of people, in their illegal overthrow.  Their paramilitary bands literally set buildings on fire with innocent civilians inside.  Sometimes they wore helmets with the swastika inscribed on  them.  In the State Department's anti Putin mania, we backed these nutcases.  Many people on the scene, like in Crimea, understood who they were and did not want to be part of a mini Fourth Reich led by idolators of the anti-Semitic  Bandera. It would be sort of like Zhukov laying down for the Wehrmacht in 1941.  These rightwing nuts have made an absolute mess out of Ukraine, similar to what Yeltsin and Jeff Sachs did to Russia during their shock doctrine days.  It became nothing but a plunderers' paradise, while the masses suffered socially and economically in every way. And it was not just a Democratic or Republican debacle, it was both. Because many times, at the top, both parties are CFR/Bohemian Grove types. And its been that way since Jerry Ford let the neocons take over in 1975.

Edited October 16, 2019 by James DiEugenio

[W. Niederhut]

11 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

We know what happened with the June 2016 meeting.  It was about emails.  This whole chimera of Russia  having HRC's emails.  It was the same thing the FBI used to snooker George P.

I don't even want to talk about the Steele Dossier.  Its very simple.  If it had been verified then Mueller would have used it in court.  He did not.  And he avoided the Carter Page case because of that.

Question: Was congress prohibited from indicting Trump through Mueller?   No.  Did they?  Mueller was such a weak witness how could they have done it?

As per Putin and these so called murders.  Kind of reminds me of A Texan Looks at Lyndon, and the beginning of all those murders LBJ was accused of.  Well, that did not pan out as well as it should have right?  Well, here look at some real journalism again as in how in one instance at least, they created a role for Putin.

https://consortiumnews.com/2017/10/28/guardians-of-the-magnitsky-myth/

And this film documentary has not been shown in the USA.  The director started it by thinking Putin was in on it.  Turns out he was not.  Browder wanted into Russia.  Putin tried to curtail the looting of Russia begun under Yeltsin.

The MSM has been utterly horrendous on this RG issue.  Its a disgrace.  

And BTW, I consider you one of the brightest people on this forum.  Intelligent and erudite.

 

 

Jim,

      As a member of the (White) Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (ROCOR) during the past 25 years I have seen, up close and personal,  how Putin and his FSB people operate.  They skillfully infiltrated and seized control of the ROCOR in Western Europe and the U.S. in 2006 in a bloodless internal coup that was scarcely mentioned in the Western media.  Part of their operation included intimidation (and probably kompromat)  of several ROCOR bishops, including one whom I knew, personally, who was threatened and beaten up in his apartment.  I also know of one ROCOR priest opposed to the Act of Canonical Communion with Moscow who died in a mysterious ladder "accident." (The Moscow Patriarchate was under the control of the NKVD/KGB/FSB since 1920, and had been anathematized by the ROCOR Synod for decades prior to 2006.) At the time of the ROCOR coup, Putin even proclaimed in a TASS interview that, "Religion is one of Russia's most effective means of self defense!"

   Putin worked as a KGB agent in East Germany for many years, and is, doubtless, an expert in the age old KGB tactics of intimidation, murder, and blackmailing compromised targets.  He has, certainly, been involved in the murders of journalists and those (like Litvinenko, Gorokhov, and Erovinkin) who are seen as threats to Kremlin agendas.

   In my opinion, Trump has been targeted by Putin's FSB people and compromised for use as a Russian asset.  Putin's oligarchs have also dangled a lot of carrots to manipulate Trump and many key Republicans in the U.S. Congress.  We know that Russia has funneled a lot of illegal campaign cash to Republicans-- through the NRA, and also through shell companies set up by people like Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman.   Mitch McConnell has repeatedly blocked legislation to secure our elections from Russian hackers.

   As for Congress and the Mueller Report, William Barr has worked tirelessly to prevent even the U.S. Congress from seeing the full, un-redacted Report.  And we all know by now that Barr distorted the findings of the Report in his misleading four-page "summary," while withholding Mueller's own summary, which was intended for public and Congressional review.

Edited October 16, 2019 by W. Niederhut

[Dennis Berube]

The founder of rocor advocated for armed rebellion against the ussr. If the Russians didnt attempt to mitigate that church I would be stunned and they would be derelict in their duty to protect themselves. 
 

Regardless, that story doesnt make your false Ukraine narrative true. It just shows your perspective on this comes from a white russian viewpoint, again, like Cliff, not exactly unbiased. 
 

Jim,

I completely agree and thats a good concise outline of the situation you gave. The lack of critical analysis on Crimea is confusing here. 

15 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

In my opinion, Trump has been targeted by Putin's FSB people and compromised for use as a Russian asset. 

There simply isnt any solid evidence this took place at all. If you listen to oliver stones long interview with putin, it’s relatively clear that he is well aware of how power works in the US and that the president by himself doesnt change that much in regards to the treatment russia gets from the us. 
In my opinion, the DNC didn’t expect Trump to win the election and went into this whole mess afterwards as a means to compromise trumps political maneuvers and to keep wall street corporate control of the democratic party without meaningfully changing their overall platform (aka, an explanation for clintons loss that didnt expose how right wing she and the leaders of the DNC actually is/are)

[Cliff Varnell]

2 hours ago, Dennis Berube said:

This is not correct and is exactly what the corporate democrats project

Oh yes, like those corporate democrats over at Aljazeera.

Annexation of Crimea: A masterclass in political manipulation

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/annexation-crimea-masterclass-political-manipulation-190315174459207.html

 

 

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Putin annexed Crimea?   And he's helping those in Donbass.  OMG.  This is why I have CV on ignore.  He's like the NY Times on this.

James DiEugenio and Dennis Berube may be the only two people on the planet who deny that Putin annexed Crimea in 2014.

From the Aljazeera article linked in my previous post:

<quote on>

Transferred by the Soviet leadership from Russia to Ukraine in 1954, Crimea is a region populated by Russian-speakers who were genuinely frightened by the prospect of finding themselves living under the rule of extreme nationalists. They have been lukewarm about Ukraine's independence since the very beginning, and perhaps more importantly, had long been consuming the same Kremlin propaganda as Russians on their TV screens. Moreover, Ukraine's revolution may have been a genuine popular uprising against a corrupt government that rejected greater integration with the EU, but it also had an ultra-nationalist component which was displayed in full view for all Russians and Crimeans to see - Right Sector ultra-nationalists occupied a whole floor in the revolutionary HQ and flags and symbols associated with Ukrainian Nazi collaborators in the World War II were ubiquitous in Maidan square. This was naturally perceived as an existential threat by Crimeans and helped them turn their back to Ukraine and its revolution and embrace Putin as their saviour.

<quote off>

The reason DiEugenio has me on ignore is because I rhetorically kick his ass every time we tangle.

[Dennis Berube]

11 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

James DiEugenio and Dennis Berube may be the only two people on the planet who deny that Putin annexed Crimea in 2014.

From the Aljazeera article linked in my previous post:

Lol. I see the issue here, you and wn enjoy getting information from known propaganda outlets, whereas me and jim do not. Russia definitely annexed the Crimea, we disagree on how and why. 

 

13 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

The reason DiEugenio has me on ignore is because I rhetorically kick his ass every time we tangle.

Lol again. Im beginning to understand why Jim blocked you. 

[Cliff Varnell]

1 minute ago, Dennis Berube said:

Lol. I see the issue here, you and wn enjoy getting information from known propaganda outlets, whereas me and jim do not. Russia definitely annexed the Crimea, we disagree on how and why.

So now you admit that "Russia definitely annexed the Crimea."  That's a start!  Now will you admit to fighting in the Donbass region?  You claimed I was wrong about that, too.

I didn't condemn Russia for annexing Crimea -- I just stated it as a fact.  You make incredible assumptions, Dennis.

1 minute ago, Dennis Berube said:

 

Lol again. Im beginning to understand why Jim blocked you. 

Yup, I'm rhetorically kicking his ass on this thread, too.

[Bob Ness]

14 hours ago, Dennis Berube said:

Russian “linked” is a vague term. They obviously weren’t significant if the mueller report was unable to find anything “there” as the fbi was heard saying. 

This type of “facts be damned” modern democratic ideology that pervades the msm and the big “leftist” sites like dailykos, huffpost, etc is exactly what the corporate democrats are all about. And exactly the opposite of the type of democrat JFK was.
 

Your Putin paranoia is undone by a view of a map of us military bases in europe bordering russia. Look at that and then tell us how Putin is destabilizing the entire world again. 

How would anybody know? He refused to be interviewed and entered into a mutual defense agreement with 36 other subjects and witnesses in the investigation. Many of these were felons, essentially in partnership with the POTUS!! He is supposedly unindictable but is the only person in the US who can offer pardons to anyone he chooses. Because of the idiotic "memo" from DOJ he is able to offer, through proxies, get out of jail cards using attorney-client privalege without any consequences due to a cuckold Senate. This is a huge problem.

So far nobody on this forum, that I remember, has commented on the MDA, which no doubt is why several Mueller witnesses wilted. Trump is so corrupt he essentially dares anyone to do anything about it. Several times on live TV he encourages foreign interference and yet his defenders act like battered spouses. Some day maybe they'll resume behaving with principle. Who knows?

To repeat for comment: Why should a person who can not be indicted or prosecuted, has the power of offering any bribe, advancement, pardon or anything in the world, be allowed the same considerations as a normal person under investigation? Because of the MDA they can negotiate any agreement they want with co-defendents (subjects) to falsify testimony and not have to pay any consequences due to the DOJ memo and pardon powers.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Bob Ness

[James DiEugenio]

Bob:

I hate to tell you but if you look at Watergate, it was the same thing.

How many people did Jaworski indict?  Over sixty.

Did he indict Nixon?

It is a constitutional problem. 

And according to Mr Wheeler, the Mueller Report was available for reading in full to select members of congress. If that was enough then I am sure they would have agreed to have an impeachment vote based on it.  They then would have gone to court during the proceedings to get it fully released.

To me, the evidence in RG simply was not there for impeachment.  The Steele Dossier ended up being  something of a joke.  What with it being financed by Singer and then the DNC?  And paying the guy well into the six figures.  Ever hear of confirmation bias?

 

Edited October 16, 2019 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

As per Maria Butina

https://newrepublic.com/article/153036/maria-butina-profile-wasnt-russian-spy

When a region or state votes overwhelmingly to save themselves from being taken over by a bunch of paramilitary Neo Nazi thugs and murderers who are intent on making Ukraine into a mini Fourth Reich, then that is not annexation from outside but inside.  Crimea is a beautiful, well frequented resort area.  They did not want any part of being tied in with a bunch of criminals and Fascists. Its that simple.  

I have CV on ignore because he is a broken record on the JFK case: Harriman and JFK's custom shirts.  I started yawning on that stuff about five years ago. On this issue, we may as well be listening to the Podesta Group or NY Times. So its the same thing. The examples above are what he thinks is "ass kicking".  😉  Therefore he is also an egotist. Why waste the time on someone I consider a t-r-o-l-l.

 

Edited October 16, 2019 by James DiEugenio

[Cliff Varnell]

45 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

I have CV on ignore because he is a broken record on the JFK case: Harriman and JFK's custom shirts. 

Pure bovine offal.

Here's the thread where DiEugenio put me on ignore:

Quote

 

I started yawning on that stuff about five years ago.

No, Jim DiEugenio started ignoring the physical evidence in the JFK murder case at least a decade ago.

I regard this as historical malpractice.

Quote

 

On this issue, we may as well be listening to the Podesta Group or NY Times.

 

Or Aljazeera, which I quoted.

Quote

So its the same thing. The examples above are what he thinks is "ass kicking".  😉  Therefore he is also an egotist.

Jim DiEugenio accuses someone of being an egotist!  The irony is rich.

Quote

 

Why waste the time on someone I consider a t-r-o-l-l.

 

As opposed to an over-rated self-aggrandizing hustler?

DiEugenio denounces Fascists in Ukraine while he carries water for Fascists in America.  Go figure.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Cliff Varnell