Question on police search of the TSBD

[Anthony Mugan]

Hello all.

I've been attempting to locate a review of the extent to which the search of the TSBD on the afternoon the 22nd November 1963 was thorough or not, but not really getting a clear picture of it.

On the one hand there are pictures of officers looking into various nooks and crannies and various individual accounts but against that a lot of officers seem to have left the area after news of the Tippit shooting came through.

In particular I am interested in if there is a documentary record anywhere as to what was or wasn't searched and perhaps in particular if the larger wooden crates (as opposed to the smaller book boxes) that get referred to were opened up and searched. The reason for asking is that, after concluding from my previous post (The Third Shooter) that there were two shooters in the TSBD based on the absence of a shockwave on the shot at Z204, the question arises as to why only one weapon was recovered and where the second one went.

Does anyone know anything about that side of things?

Thanks

[Paul Jolliffe]

1 hour ago, Anthony Mugan said:

Hello all.

I've been attempting to locate a review of the extent to which the search of the TSBD on the afternoon the 22nd November 1963 was thorough or not, but not really getting a clear picture of it.

On the one hand there are pictures of officers looking into various nooks and crannies and various individual accounts but against that a lot of officers seem to have left the area after news of the Tippit shooting came through.

In particular I am interested in if there is a documentary record anywhere as to what was or wasn't searched and perhaps in particular if the larger wooden crates (as opposed to the smaller book boxes) that get referred to were opened up and searched. The reason for asking is that, after concluding from my previous post (The Third Shooter) that there were two shooters in the TSBD based on the absence of a shockwave on the shot at Z204, the question arises as to why only one weapon was recovered and where the second one went.

Does anyone know anything about that side of things?

Thanks

Anthony said: "the question arises as to why only one weapon was recovered and where the second one went."

Anthony, are you sure that more than one rifle was fired at the motorcade from the TSBD? 

(Your question about official records for the  TSBD search is legitimate. No, I haven't seen any, but I haven't looked either.) 

We all agree that there were multiple shooters from multiple locations, but I've never been persuaded by the theory of multiple gunmen firing from multiple locations within the TSBD itself.

Therefore, any search of the TSBD, no matter how meticulous, would not turn up any other weapon. Only the "throw-down" gun, of course.

[Larry Hancock]

Having spent years on that particular subject I can tell you that the search was restricted to open spaces in the TSBD as well as the drop ceiling above the sixth floor.  No boxes were opened, in particular the large wooden crates.  That was first discussed many years ago in a book whose name escapes me at the moment - the authors thesis was that it was simple to knock off the wooden end of one of those crates, leave it loose...then throw in a rifle and quickly slam the end back on.

Actually that seemed a really interesting idea to me but at this point there is no way to prove or disprove it - we can only say the crates were not opened and searched.  We can also say the search itself was fast paces and rudimentary and largely ended with the finding of the rifle and hulls.  As an example, Oswald's clipboard was not recovered until many days after the shooting.   There descriptions from various officers of their actions in the building but no documentation other than as to the materials take into evidence - and there is a good deal of confusing on some of those including the soda bottles and chicken lunch which Tom Alyea says were on the fifth not the sixth floor.

[David Josephs]

FWIW....   Nat Pinkston’s name appears a lot on reports from Early Dec back at the TSBD including the reporting on the clipboard and a reinterview of Shelley...

I only mention cause his reports and stories told later conflict with other first day evidence including Day, the rifle and Odom driving Day to DPD with the rifle

DJ

[Guest]

Pinkston was also the first or one of the first who brought up the 2FLRE

http://www.prayer-man.com/nat-pinkston-and-the-snack-room-encounter/

[David Josephs]

[Steve Thomas]

5 hours ago, Anthony Mugan said:

Hello all.

I've been attempting to locate a review of the extent to which the search of the TSBD on the afternoon the 22nd November 1963 was thorough or not, but not really getting a clear picture of it.

On the one hand there are pictures of officers looking into various nooks and crannies and various individual accounts but against that a lot of officers seem to have left the area after news of the Tippit shooting came through.

In particular I am interested in if there is a documentary record anywhere as to what was or wasn't searched and perhaps in particular if the larger wooden crates (as opposed to the smaller book boxes) that get referred to were opened up and searched.

Anthony,

 

I can't help with your crates search question, but it seems to me that, if anything, there was an over abundance of people searching the TSBD. I'm surprised they didn't trip over each other. As Jack Revill told the WC,

" Mr. REVILL. Myself and Lieutenant Frank Dyson took charge of the search of the building and we must have had 75 or 80 men in the building assisting in this search."

Weren,'t there also dogs assisting in the search? I don't know how many floors they took the dogs through, or if they were just limited to the 7th floor.

 

Steve Thomas

 

[David Andrews]

Is there a photo of the crates?  I've heard about them for years but never seen them.  If you can't post a photo, post a link, please.

Also, what's with the rifle in the plainclothesman's hand, by the window at 01:57 in this assemblage of the Alyea film?

 

[Ron Bulman]

So Pinkston's the one who framed Ozzie regarding the second floor encounter, with the help of Truly?  Never read about the crates, but might they be irrelevant?

[Lawrence Schnapf]

Oswald's alleged clipboard was discovered on dec. 2nd near the rear stairways. Would a thorough police search failed to find this?

More importantly, witnesses reportedly told DPD at 12:35 that they saw gunman on SE window of 6th floor. Did DPD go immediately to 6th floor to search? No- they did not get to that floor until 1 pm and didnt discover the snioers nest until 1:15.

You draw ur conclusions on the thoroughness and timing of the search. 

[Ron Bulman]

16 minutes ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

Oswald's alleged clipboard was discovered on dec. 2nd near the rear stairways. Would a thorough police search failed to find this?

More importantly, witnesses reportedly told DPD at 12:35 that they saw gunman on SE window of 6th floor. Did DPD go immediately to 6th floor to search? No- they did not get to that floor until 1 pm and didnt discover the snioers nest until 1:15.

You draw ur conclusions on the thoroughness and timing of the search. 

No a thorough search wouldn't have failed to find the clipboard.  But I believe they did get to the sixth floor before 1:00.

[Anthony Mugan]

Thanks all... very helpful

Paul...please see the thread There Third Shooter’ from the 25th October where I discuss the implications of the absence of a shockwave on the acoustic signature of the shot at Z 204

David...Think that is a police shotgun?

 

[Anthony Mugan]

Hi Larry

yes, that seems consistent with my impression of it. Not trying to prove anything about this but rather the opposite...looking for contra-indicators that would make the basic idea problematic.

[David Andrews]

9 hours ago, Anthony Mugan said:

David...Think that is a police shotgun?

 

OK, I see the pump fore-end now.  Film is dim.

Edited November 29, 2019 by David Andrews