The inevitable end result of our last 56 years

[Matthew Koch]

25 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

Flat Earthers are free to talk till they're blue in the face, but it won't change the fact that the world is round.

Matt that is called an Ad Hominem attack and it is a logical fallacy.

I would appreciate it if you wouldn't project things that haven't been said in this thread ; )

[Matthew Koch]

15 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Oh yeah... and Matthew has a good sense of humor whereas Ben is very polite.

 

Thank you Sandy,
I am going for Snarky in this thread, but I won't be posting the same way in the JFK threads research threads. 

[Mark Knight]

4 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Well, it's a shame to see this interesting thread suddenly covered with Fox/GOP elephant dung.

Cleaning up the Fox/GOP elephant dung in the U.S. mainstream and social media is an onerous, never-ending job.

There's too much to shovel.

Not something that I really want to waste time on, although I have spent a lot of time during the past year pointing out the errors and contradictions in Ben's Fox/GOP narratives-- e.g., "Patriot Purge," J6 "scrum," Biden as Neville Chamberlain, etc.

Regarding responsibility for our multi-trillion dollar Afghan War debacle, here is my brief take.

WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR AFGHAN WAR DEBACLE?

In Reality

Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld: 80%

Obama/Gates: 10%

Trump: 8%

Biden: 2%

According to Fox News

Biden:  90%

Trump:  0%

Obama: 10%

Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld: 0%

 

Once again, well stated! 

 

[Mark Knight]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Just pondering my new surroundings...

The difference between Matthew and Ben is that Matthew is all-in Trump, whereas Ben is all-in what he wants Trump to be. Matthew believes all MAGAverse alternative facts, whereas Ben believes only the ones he can fit with his True Trump.

 

I think Matthew's last name tells us where his loyalties lie.

Whether he's related to them or not.

[Mark Knight]

In my estimation, Trump is guilty of being caught with government documents, a/k/a government property, in his hands [on his property, not on his person] that belong to the National Archives. The proof is the fact that the FBI found those pieces of government property while executing a legal search warrant. After 12:00 noon on January 20, 2021, Trump was no longer a government employee with a security clearance. At that moment, he became another John Q. Public, albeit with Secret Service protection 24/7.

WHY did the FBI execute that search warrant? Because although Trump's lawyer(s) certified to the National Archives that all the missing documents had been returned, there were enough missing to create PROBABLE CAUSE to believe that the lawyer(s) was/were not being honest, and that those documents remained at Mar-a-Lago. The recovery of those documents is prima facie evidence that the documents were not returned to the National Archives, and that they remained in Trump's possession.

The fact that many of those documents were marked CLASSIFIED raises the question of who may have seen them who were not issued a security clearance, potentially placing the national security of America in jeopardy.

This is so simple to understand, I don't know why anyone would doubt that there was a legitimate case of unauthorized handling of confidential government documents, possibly bordering on espionage due to Trump's avowed close personal relationships with the likes of Vladimir Putin, Kim Jung Un, Mohammed bin Saalman, and other heads of hostile nations. [In the case of MBS, let me remind you that 17 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were Saudi citizens. So his "friendship" with the US is suspect, even more so since the murder of Khashoggi.]

So, in a nutshell, Trump should be charged, arrested, and tried. The Us government didn't wait around like this in the case of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. It's as if "equal justice under law" is no more than a theory, and that if you're either rich or politically well connected, breaking the law has no consequences.

And yet Matthew calls that "Trump Derangement Syndrome," as if his hero is incapable of doing any wrong. Maybe in Matthew's eyes, Trump truly IS the Son of God, as that book currently available on Amazon suggests.

In my eyes, he's simply like every other man, and should be held accountable as you or I would be if confidential and classified government documents were found in OUR homes.

[Matthew Koch]

49 minutes ago, Mark Knight said:

I think Matthew's last name tells us where his loyalties lie.

Whether he's related to them or not.

Hi Mark, 
 

 The Former Mayor of NYC has the same spelling of his last name. Can you please clarify, your projection is too vague. Lol
 

Mark do you support prosecuting Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning under the same WWI law?
"The fact that many of those documents were marked CLASSIFIED raises the question of who may have seen them who were not issued a security clearance, potentially placing the national security of America in jeopardy." 

It looks like here that Trump already declassified the stuff, but if not, I still don't see why it is illegal for Trump who has a security clearance of President to have those documents? We know why it was wrong for Hillary to have the emails because she was Secretary of State and not president. Can you explain why Obama can have doc and Trump can't?  

CNN so that Matt read the source 
https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/13/politics/trump-declassification-tweets/index.html

 

[Sandy Larsen]

3 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

Flat Earthers are free to talk till they're blue in the face, but it won't change the fact that the world is round.

 

Technically speaking Matt, flat earthers DO believe the world is round. What they don't believe is that it is spherical.

I wonder how thick they think it is?

Come to think of it, they must think the shape of the earth is cylindrical. Otherwise, how could it be explained that deep off-shore oil wells are drilled without puncturing through the bottom of the earth and having all the ocean water drained out? Ha! But then, I'm using logic here! Something flat earthers aren't particularly known for.

 

[Richard Price]

26 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Technically speaking Matt, flat earthers DO believe the world is round. What they don't believe is that it is spherical.

I wonder how thick they think it is?

They, for the most part don't speculate on the depth. 

[Benjamin Cole]

7 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Well, it's a shame to see this interesting thread suddenly covered with Fox/GOP elephant dung.

Cleaning up the Fox/GOP elephant dung in the U.S. mainstream and social media is an onerous, never-ending job.

There's too much to shovel.

Not something that I really want to waste time on, although I have spent a lot of time during the past year pointing out the errors and contradictions in Ben's Fox/GOP narratives-- e.g., "Patriot Purge," J6 "scrum," Biden as Neville Chamberlain, etc.

Regarding responsibility for our multi-trillion dollar Afghan War debacle, here is my brief take.

WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR AFGHAN WAR DEBACLE?

In Reality

Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld: 80%

Obama/Gates: 10%

Trump: 8%

Biden: 2%

According to Fox News

Biden:  90%

Trump:  0%

Obama: 10%

Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld: 0%

 

Perhaps this snippet is true. 

So, by your reasoning, who gets credit for getting the US out of Afcrapistan?

By your own statements, 

Credit for the Afcrapistan Pullout:

Trump: 90%

Biden 10%

Obama 0%

Bush jr. -100% 

Unfortunately, one truth appears to be that pulling out of a military occupation, in which the US made or purchased allies, always results in a horrible debacle. 

Oddity: Obama called the Iraq War "a dumb war" but actually prosecuted the Afcrapistan for eight years. I guess that was a "smart war."

Forgotten today:

U.S. Pres. Barack Obama went to the White House promising to focus attention and resources on the faltering war effort in Afghanistan. On February 17, 2009, he approved sending an additional 17,000 U.S. troops, on top of the 36,000 U.S. troops and 32,000 NATO service members already there.

---30---

Sheesh. 

I realize sentiments run high regarding Trump. Personally I think Trump is unfit for office due to his personality and character. 

But...many of his policies were pretty good.

I think Trump was right to get out of Afcrapistan. 

Why the Donks and establishment 'Phants wanted to prosecute the Afcrapistan war is beyond me. 

 

[Matt Allison]

4 hours ago, Matthew Koch said:

Matt that is called an Ad Hominem attack and it is a logical fallacy.

 

It's a factual statement about flat-earthers.

If you feel attacked by it, that's on you, not me.

[Matthew Koch]

23 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

It's a factual statement about flat-earthers.

If you feel attacked by it, that's on you, not me.

LMAO!!
Oh okay, my mistake.. 

[Mark Knight]

2 hours ago, Matthew Koch said:

Hi Mark, 
 

 The Former Mayor of NYC has the same spelling of his last name. Can you please clarify, your projection is too vague. Lol
 

Mark do you support prosecuting Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning under the same WWI law?
"The fact that many of those documents were marked CLASSIFIED raises the question of who may have seen them who were not issued a security clearance, potentially placing the national security of America in jeopardy." 

It looks like here that Trump already declassified the stuff, but if not, I still don't see why it is illegal for Trump who has a security clearance of President to have those documents? We know why it was wrong for Hillary to have the emails because she was Secretary of State and not president. Can you explain why Obama can have doc and Trump can't?  

CNN so that Matt read the source 
https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/13/politics/trump-declassification-tweets/index.html

 

You apparently don't understand that Trump is NO LONGER PRESIDENT. That office ceased to be his as of 12 noon on January 20, 2021.

I stated that in my original post, so you are ignoring facts inconvenient to your beliefs.

As far as Hillary Clinton goes... I don't like that [term for a female dog] any more than I like Trump, so your false equivalence cuts no ice with me. As Secretary of State from 2009-2013, she must have had a security clearance to view sensitive emails. AFTER 2009, if she was accessing sensitive emails, they her butt needs to be charged and she needs to be arrested. 

I worked at the US Census Bureau from 2015 until I retired in October 2021. WHILE I WAS EMPLOYED, I was authorized to see documents about which I was sworn to secrecy for a lifetime under Title 13 and Title 26 USC. Since I retired, I no longer can access such documents because I NO LONGER HAVE A JOB-RELATED NEED-TO-KNOW. As an EX-President, the same applies to Trump: HE NO LONGER HAS A JOB-RELATED NEED-TO-KNOW. And the confidential data I did see as part of my job I not only have taken a lifetime secrecy oath but violating that oath and revealing that data to anyone else, even if it is declared no longer secret, would subject me to hefty fines and imprisonment...PER OCCURRENCE.

THAT is why I take this matter of Trump possessing these documents so seriously. If it was anyone else who is no longer employed by the federal government, they would already have been charged and arrested.

And the last-name reference is to Charles and the late David. Which would be obvious to nearly anyone else. 

So Trump's security clearance left with his need-to-know as President. That's why Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, and Barack Obama aren't still holding classified documents. They no longer have a job-related need-to-know. 

AND NEITHER DOES TRUMP. A new President was sworn in on January 20, 2021. TRUMP IS NO LONGER THE PRESIDENT. That's simply a statement of facts. It appears that those are facts that you refuse to accept. A security clearance isn't like a smallpox vaccination that immunizes you for life. Far from it.

[Matthew Koch]

13 minutes ago, Mark Knight said:

You apparently don't understand that Trump is NO LONGER PRESIDENT. That office ceased to be his as of 12 noon on January 20, 2021.

I stated that in my original post, so you are ignoring facts inconvenient to your beliefs.

As far as Hillary Clinton goes... I don't like that [term for a female dog] any more than I like Trump, so your false equivalence cuts no ice with me. As Secretary of State from 2009-2013, she must have had a security clearance to view sensitive emails. AFTER 2009, if she was accessing sensitive emails, they her butt needs to be charged and she needs to be arrested. 

I worked at the US Census Bureau from 2015 until I retired in October 2021. WHILE I WAS EMPLOYED, I was authorized to see documents about which I was sworn to secrecy for a lifetime under Title 13 and Title 26 USC. Since I retired, I no longer cannot access such documents because I NO LONGER HAVE A JOB-RELATED NEED-TO-KNOW. As an EX-President, the same applies to Trump: HE NO LONGER HAS A JOB-RELATED NEED-TO-KNOW. And the confidential data I did see as part of my job I not only have taken a lifetime secrecy oath but violating that oath and revealing that data to anyone else, even if it is declared no longer secret, would subject me to hefty fines and imprisonment...PER OCCURRENCE.

THAT is why I take this matter of Trump possessing these documents so seriously. If it was anyone else who is no longer employed by the federal government, they would already have been charged and arrested.

And the last-name reference is to Charles and the late David. Which would be obvious to nearly anyone else. 

So Trump's security clearance left with his need-to-know as President. That's why Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, and Barack Obama aren't still holding classified documents. They no longer have a job-related need-to-know. 

AND NEITHER DOES TRUMP. A new President was sworn in on January 20, 2021. TRUMP IS NO LONGER THE PRESIDENT. That's simply a statement of facts. It appears that those are facts that you refuse to accept. A security clearance isn't like a smallpox vaccination that immunizes you for life. Far from it.

Mark.. you forgot to Clarify what my Last name means ; ) 
"And the last-name reference is to Charles and the late David. Which would be obvious to nearly anyone else."

 That's a lot of Caps lock shouting! You seem pretty upset dude...

Edited October 2, 2022 by Matthew Koch
Grammar added quote from Admin

[Mark Knight]

Security clearances are subject to the provisions of Executive Order 12968.

You really should read it and familiarize yourself with its provisions.

At no point is anyone granted a lifetime security clearance. Once there is no longer a job-related "need-to-know" secure or classified information, i.e., termination of employment, the security clearance becomes void.

Access To Classified Information (fas.org)

And I used caps to emphasize the information of which you either unaware or that you choose to ignore. If you've ever been to church, the upper-case words are what the priest/preacher/minister would be trying to show as the most important ones.

Sorry you missed the mention of Charles and the late David Koch in my previous post. You should reread that post. It's actually in there.

[Ron Bulman]

2 hours ago, Richard Price said:

They, for the most part don't speculate on the depth. 

"Flat earther's might know something after all'?