The inevitable end result of our last 56 years

[W. Niederhut]

14 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

I think at the beginning of Biden's term there was the possibility of a big reduction in defense spending, especially after the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan.

But Putin blew any chance of that when he decided to invade Ukraine. 

Matt,

Whatever else people may say about Putin's Ukraine invasion, it has certainly been a colossal waste of human life and resources.

Think of the good things that Russia, the U.S., and the EU could have accomplished with all of the billions of dollars and rubles that have been wasted on bombs, missiles, and war machinery.  For what?!!

I felt just as nauseous about all of the billions Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld wasted murdering Iraqis and blowing up Iraq's infrastructure after February of 2003.  For what?!!

Of course, I mainly blame Putin for the Ukraine invasion, but the U.S. and NATO should have worked harder to prevent this debacle in the first place -- knowing that they were crossing a red line with the Kremlin on the issue of potential NATO expansion into Ukraine.

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by W. Niederhut

[Benjamin Cole]

2 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Matt,

Whatever else people may say about Putin's Ukraine invasion, it has certainly been a colossal waste of human life and resources.

Think of the good things that Russia, the U.S., and the EU could have accomplished with all of the billions of dollars and rubles that have been wasted on bombs, missiles, and war machinery.  For what?!!

I felt just as nauseous about all of the billions Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld wasted murdering Iraqis and blowing up Iraq's infrastructure after February of 2003.  For what?!!

Of course, I mainly blame Putin for the Ukraine invasion, but the U.S. and NATO should have worked harder to prevent this debacle in the first place -- knowing that they were crossing a red line with the Kremlin on the issue of potential NATO expansion into Ukraine.

 

Amen, W. 

 

[Matt Allison]

1 minute ago, W. Niederhut said:

they were crossing a red line with the Kremlin on the issue of potential NATO expansion into Ukraine.

Sorry, but it's impossible to fault Ukraine for wanting to join NATO, especially after Putin decided to invade Crimea in 2014.

NATO doesn't invade sovereign countries in an attempt to overtake their democracy. Russia does.

That's why NATO is necessary. 

Ukraine needs to join NATO as soon as possible.

[Mark Knight]

35 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

I think at the beginning of Biden's term there was the possibility of a big reduction in defense spending, especially after the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan.

But Putin blew any chance of that when he decided to invade Ukraine. 

I disagree with your initial premise. The out-of-control defense budget is something easily demagogued. If the defense budget gets cut in any significant way, the Republicans will bludgeon the Democrats with the image that Democrats are leaving America "defenseless." And Democrats will go along with any defense spending increases in order to avoid being placed into that position.

But the line about Putin ending chances for a reduction in defense spending IS true. JFK was a proponent of self-determination for countries around the world, leaning toward democracies [CIA actions in the banana republics and Africa notwithstanding]. Biden is obviously trying to emulate JFK, at least in his own mind, on that level.

In a similar vein, I read an article this week quoting Trump's national security John Bolton as saying that had a second trump term become a reality, Trump was planning to withdraw the US from NATO and to "allow" Putin to take Ukraine unchallenged.

[Matt Allison]

W- I want you to imagine something; for real, picture in your mind:

Joe Biden indiscriminately bombing playgrounds and apartment buildings in a sovereign foreign country on a daily basis.

What do you think the reaction to that would be, hmm?

Both at home and abroad?

I think you know.

[Ron Bulman]

4 hours ago, Douglas Caddy said:

Funny.  But it was not just Southwest.  They were the worst, took the brunt of the blame.  But All American had problems too.  My daughters AA flight back on Monday from FW/d to LAX was cancelled.  Wednesday flight they told her of filled up before she finished claiming a seat.

Prices became exorbitant.  $150 to get to FW/d.  $700 she said, I saw an article about $1100.  Supply and demand, price gouging?  All because of an employee strike?

She ended up paying $400 plus a $79 baggage fee to get home yesterday on Spirit Airlines.

No bad weather between FW/d and LAX the whole time.

Edited December 31, 2022 by Ron Bulman

[W. Niederhut]

13 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

W- I want you to imagine something; for real, picture in your mind:

Joe Biden indiscriminately bombing playgrounds and apartment buildings in a sovereign foreign country on a daily basis.

What do you think the reaction to that would be, hmm?

Both at home and abroad?

I think you know.

Matt,

     I have had no illusions about Putin since 2007, when he and the FSB seized the ROCOR in Western Europe and the U.S., including my own ROCOR parish here in Denver.

    My point is about the colossal waste of human life and resources in the Ukraine War, and whether more could have been done to prevent this tragedy.

    The only people who benefit from this debacle are the war profiteers in the armaments industries-- Lockheed-Martin, Northrup-Grumman, et.al.

    It makes me sick.

[Matt Allison]

26 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

My point is about the colossal waste of human life and resources in the Ukraine War, and whether more could have been done to prevent this tragedy.

Do you think anything could have prevented Hitler from invading Poland in 1939?

[W. Niederhut]

1 minute ago, Matt Allison said:

Do you think anything could have prevented Hitler from invading Poland in 1939?

Probably not, although he and Goering were, apparently, surprised when Britain and France subsequently declared war.

By August of 1939, Hitler was used to getting away with his expansionist gambits in central Europe.

In Putin's case, perhaps war could have been prevented if the U.S., NATO, and the Zelensky administration had agreed to forego the possibility of NATO expansion into Ukraine.  (I don't know the answer to that hypothetical.)

 

[Matt Allison]

8 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

In Putin's case, perhaps war could have been prevented if the U.S., NATO, and the Zelensky administration had agreed to forego the possibility of NATO expansion into Ukraine.  (I don't know the answer to that hypothetical.)

 

I don't believe that to be the case.

All signs point to Putin believing the Soviet Union never should have been broken up, and that Ukraine belonged to Russia.

Ergo, no one could have stopped Putin from eventually invading Ukraine, unless he himself abandoned the belief system he had followed his entire life.

[Kirk Gallaway]

Of course you ask anybody in that region, at least in the old Yugoslavia where I went last year,  there's much more love for the West than  Putin. Most of the people there are just glad Putin didn't invade them. 

Things could have been handled better after the break up the Soviet Union without a doubt.

Re: Putin, since it was a very delayed response after the exile of Yanukovich, (sp?), and there's only been 3 new nations joining Nato since , I think 2004. I think Putin tried to make a last ditch effort to salvage his name in Russian history and start a return to the glory days in his mind. which has definitely backfired.

I've seen Stone's "Ukraine on Fire" making his historic basis for Putin's "denazzification" claims. But if you guys have Netflix you should see "Winter on Fire", "Ukraine's flight to Freedom" which is a very good grass roots accounting by everyday people of the 2015 uprising made by a I believe a Ukrainian, film maker with  the assistance of a Brit and an American. It's much more interesting, and I would assume by now you might be able to find it in a number of places, like Amazon Prime.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4908644/

wow, I'm getting it right now on youtube!

 

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Kirk Gallaway

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

Do you think anything could have prevented Hitler from invading Poland in 1939?

Matt-

How do you rate Obama's response to Putin's occupation of Crimea? 

Obama said out loud he understood Ukraine and Crimea are vital to Russian interests, and not vital to US interests. So, some feeble trade sanctions were put on Russia. 

When Obama's VP becomes President, and offers a ride to Zelensky, and the CIA leaks info that Russia will easily prevail in Ukraine, Putin invades Ukraine again...

However, in the main, I agree with you. Putin is a monster. My layman's estimation is he needs to be pushed out of Ukraine and possibly even Crimea, but if an armistice is agreed to on whatever reasonable terms, fine, go with it. 

Putin is mortal and will pass from the scene. Maybe there will be worse leaders coming but maybe better.  

My layman's estimate is Putin is losing this war of occupation, though inflicting inhumane amounts of damage on Ukraine. He will never win this war, and that is equal to losing for an occupying power. 

 

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

In Putin's case, perhaps war could have been prevented if the U.S., NATO, and the Zelensky administration had agreed to forego the possibility of NATO expansion into Ukraine.  (I don't know the answer to that hypothetical.)

I think that is entirely plausible. 

[Paul Bacon]

7 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

Ergo, no one could have stopped Putin from eventually invading Ukraine, unless he himself abandoned the belief system he had followed his entire life.

Fiona Hill would agree with you.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, John Cotter said:

As usual, Mearsheimer is excellent. In the following passage beginning at the 13.42 mark he compliments JFK on how he handled the Cuban missile crises and laments the absence of any western leader of JFK’s stature today:

“This is a country [Russia] that has thousands of nuclear weapons. If its survival is threatened, it's likely to use them. So we have this perverse paradox here that most people don't seem to realise, which is that the more successful NATO and Ukraine are against Russia, the more likely it is that the Russians will use nuclear weapons. In circumstances like that, I would go to great lengths to try to work out some sort of arrangement to put an end to this war as quickly as possible. I think what JFK did during the Cuban missile crisis was exactly the right thing. Kennedy understood full well that the last thing we needed was a thermonuclear war between the United States and the Soviet Union. Where is JFK today? I can't find him, and I find instead all sorts of people in the West, in the public –  talking about public intellectuals commentators journalists and so forth and so on and even foreign policy makers –  talking in rather cavalier ways about defeating the Russians. I think this is foolish.”

While I agree with most of what Mearsheimer says, I find it odd that he says near the end of the interview that a unipolar US dominated world is better and safer than the multipolar world which may succeed it.

Regarding multipolarity, I listened to a very interesting podcast the other day of an interview with “Paul” from the Sirius Report (beginning at the 28.00 mark) who has a different perspective on multipolarity from Mearsheimer.

https://www.northernminer.com/news/the-northern-miner-podcast-episode-322-trust-multipolarity-energy-war-and-gold-takeaways-from-2022-with-paul-from-the-sirius-report/1003849943/

Thanks for taking the time to quote some of the video, I have been juggling a few balls over Xmas and really should have myself. He quotes JFK/The Missile Crisis 2 or 3 times and there is certainly a lot of wisdom in that. Most here on the forum agree with the logic when it came to Cuba and the Soviet Union but, when it comes to Ukraine, it is largely ignored. In my view we need escalation, detente and rapprochement. Mearsheimer uses the term 'modus vivendi'. 

I paused the video to have a good think on the unipolar comment. I think he is wrong. 20 years ago I would have agreed with him, as it was very much my fathers view. It's a very complicated topic with plenty of variables. We are seeing the dark side of unipolar and human nature shining through, instead of democratic principles. We are a captive audience in the west. We have become what we accuse the Russian and Chinese public of. 

Thanks, I'll add the podcast to my list. Happy New Year to you.