The inevitable end result of our last 56 years

[Matt Allison]

Ben- I mean no ill will with this suggestion: I think you need to at least give the appearance that you're putting a little more time into understanding the specifics of the 1/6 investigation; it will make conversing with you on the subject a lot easier. Thanks

[Benjamin Cole]

13 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

Ben- I mean no ill will with this suggestion: I think you need to at least give the appearance that you're putting a little more time into understanding the specifics of the 1/6 investigation; it will make conversing with you on the subject a lot easier. Thanks

Suggestion accepted.

But explain why the 1/6 committee cannot subpoena any public employee, past or present, or any private US citizen.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Benjamin Cole

[Kirk Gallaway]

Right Matt, right after Ben last night floats a story that Superman Hero Computer Whiz Donald Trump hacks into the FBI files on "Crossfire hurricane" and absconds   the files to Mara Lago and is currently holding the FBI  hostage to the damning information he uncovered, and Ben believes it enough to float it here..

Let me clu ya Ben. The people who sucked you into that one  were the wide eyed Trumpies who early on were obsessed with idea that Trump was playing "3D chess" with all of us.

Rather than acknowledge  the mess he's in, they concoct another Trump Superman story to keep the Bens and  the "Q" grass root support, and also keep the wealthy donor money rolling in..

"A sucker's born every minute"

P.T. Barnum

Edited August 30, 2022 by Kirk Gallaway

[Benjamin Cole]

I don't see any leeway when one receives a Congressional subpoena. Your choices are to appear or eventually go to jail. 

https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/i-received-a-congressional-subpoena-now-2978444/

#1 – Understand that You Must Comply with the Congressional Subpoena

At first, you might think that you can fight or ignore the subpoena. You cannot. Failure to abide by a congressional subpoena can have devastating consequences for you and your business. If you do not comply, you can be held in contempt of Congress. There are three different avenues Congress may take.

• Inherent Contempt
• Criminal Contempt
• Civil Contempt

Know that Inherent Contempt has not been used in decades. It was when Congress brought the individual before Congress, tried them for noncompliance, and imprisoned them until they complied with the subpoena or until the session of Congress terminates.

However, the other two are real options. If Congress holds you in criminal contempt, either the House of Representatives or the Senate can request that the Department of Justice bring charges against you for not complying with the subpoena under the corresponding federal statute. If convicted, this is a misdemeanor that carries with it fines and imprisonment for up to 12 months.

If civil contempt is pursued, the congressional committee will go to the judiciary and get a court to enforce the subpoena in civil court.

And note that if you are held in contempt in any of these ways, it can harm your business and your reputation, which in turn will affect your revenues, stocks, and customer loyalty.

Thus, you must take a congressional subpoena very seriously.

#2- Hire a federal defense attorney."

---30---

Granted, lawyers always say, "hire a lawyer," but evidently if you are subpoena'd, the advice is to hire a lawyer, regardless of circumstance.  

If one lives in highly, highly politicized atmosphere...maybe good advice. 

[Matt Allison]

41 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

But explain why the 1/6 committee cannot subpoena any public employee, past or present, or any private US citizen.

They can indeed do that. Here is what happened in this particular instance:

As I related a couple months back, the likelihood is that Tony Ornato played a larger role in the events of 1/6 than has so far been revealed. When he attempted to counter the revelations of Cassidy Hutchinson, the committee called his bluff and said "Say that under oath, pal". Ornato has been using delay tactics ever since with regard to coming in to be interviewed in the hope that he can simply wait out the committee. But a date was finally set, this Wednesday.

Now because of his status as an active employee of the U.S. Government, during this interview he could be compelled to testify; in other words, he could not take the 5th. He'd have to talk.

So in order to remove that barrier, he resigned from the Secret Service. So now if he indeed ever shows up for questioning, he won't have to talk. He can plead the 5th.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Matt Allison
spelling, etc

[Benjamin Cole]

31 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

They can indeed do that. Here is what happened in this particular instance:

As I related a couple months back, the likelihood is that Tony Ornato played a larger role in the events of 1/6 than has so far been revealed. When he attempted to counter the revelations of Cassidy Hutchinson, the committee called his bluff and said "Say that under oath, pal". Ornato has been using delay tactics ever since with regard to coming in to be interviewed in the hope that he can simply wait out the committee. But a date was finally set, this Wednesday.

Now because of his status as an active employee of the U.S. Government, during this interview he could be compelled to testify; in other words, he could not take the 5th. He'd have to talk.

So in order to remove that barrier, he resigned from the Secret Service. So now if he indeed ever shows up for questioning, he won't have to talk. He can plead the 5th.

https://www.govexec.com/oversight/2014/03/lawyers-examine-pleading-fifth-federal-employee/80179/

This article says federal employees take the fifth, like any other citizen. 

What is your source for stating that federal employees, when subpoena'd before a Congressional committee cannot take the fifth? 

---

"John Mahoney, a partner in Tully Rinckey PLLC who specializes in labor and employment law, said, “The committee likely has a good sense of whether any criminal activity occurred at the IRS. If a crime likely occurred and Ms. Lerner has any potential criminal exposure, then she has every right to exercise her Fifth Amendment rights to remain silent, unless she is granted what is called ‘use immunity’ from such prosecution by Justice based on her testimony. The House needs to be careful about infringing on those rights by threatening to hold her in contempt for exercising her Fifth Amendment rights,” he added. “If she has no criminal exposure, then the committee through DoJ should grant her use immunity, so the committee can compel her testimony and get at the truth. If there is no offer of use immunity, then this all amounts to political theater, as a witness cannot be compelled by a congressional committee to self-incriminate under threat of being held in contempt of Congress.”

---30---

So...why does not the 1/6 committee subpoena any and all Secret Service agents they want to (past or present, including recent departed Director James Murray), put them under oath, and see what happens? 

Instead they take testimony from a photogenic hearsay witness and call it a day? 

The Warren Commission was also very selective in witness testimony they received. A clue there?  

 

[Kirk Gallaway]

I'm no fool! I'll take the photogenic hearsay over the ugly, 5th amendment li-r anyday!

heh heh

 

[Matt Allison]

20 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

This article says federal employees take the fifth, like any other citizen. 

I believe it was because of the Secret Service angle; perhaps the IG demanded it? I'll have to check.

But the crux of the matter remains: Ornato was going to be compelled to testify, to talk, because of his employment.

So to remedy that, he quit; became a private citizen, with full ability to take the 5th.

[Matt Allison]

28 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

So...why does not the 1/6 committee subpoena any and all Secret Service agents they want to (past or present, including recent departed Director James Murray), put them under oath, and see what happens? 

Ben- I just related how the committee tried to get Ornato to talk. Did you read what I wrote?

He was an active Secret Service agent- theoretically on the same side as the U.S. government. Obviously the committee hoped a subpoena would not be necessary. 

Now that's he's quit, we see where his allegiance truly is.

[Benjamin Cole]

10 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

Ben- I just related how the committee tried to get Ornato to talk. Did you read what I wrote?

He was an active Secret Service agent- theoretically on the same side as the U.S. government. Obviously the committee hoped a subpoena would not be necessary. 

Now that's he's quit, we see where his allegiance truly is.

Matt:

Well, you have said you suspect the Secret Service was active, and participated in, a plot to re-install Trump as US President on Jan. 6.

Ergo, I assume you suspect Ornato was part of the plot. 

We have to agree to disagree on this one.

The long tradition of the SS is they are part of the Deep State, going back (possibly) to the JFKA. I cannot imagine other US intel agencies (NSA, CIA, FBI) do not have "eyes and ears" within the SS. 

The prospect that Trump---a bombastic blowhard---converted the SS into his personal police agency, willing to engage in an insurrection of sorts, defies the imagination. 

Ornato was entitled to a pension, after 25 years of employment in the SS.  He may have assumed forward career advancement was now dead, rightly or wrongly. 

His lawyer may be trying to define terms---such as can Ornato read an opening statement, or can someone besides 1/6 committee members ask questions, or can other SS agents, who would confirm his accounts, be required also to testify. 

Even an innocent man, in such politicized times, would be wise to establish the ground rules and conditions. Remember, the 1/6 committee is not a courtroom. It has elements of a show trial. 

In any event, I regard Ornato as innocent until proven guilty in a court law, when represented by able defense counsel.  

I gather I am out of step with contemporary thinking, in this regard. 

 

[Matt Allison]

Retiring at age 48. Must be nice.

[Benjamin Cole]

28 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

Retiring at age 48. Must be nice.

Hey we should of joined the Army (or Navy, Marines, AF). Full pension and lifetime medical after 20 years of employment. 

Join at 18, retire at 38, migrate to low-cost developing nation....

Me? Still working at age...well, past retirement age.  Too painful to mention the actual number. 

 

[Steve Thomas]

Trump's followers are delusional and dangerous — but don't call them hypocrites

bu Chauncey Devega, Salon August 30, 2022

https://www.rawstory.com/trump-supporters-2657964391/

 

“It's important to understand that Trump's followers and voters love him because of his wrongdoing and disregard for the rule of law and democracy, not despite those things.”

“For Trump's followers, anything and everything he does amounts to "fighting for people like them" and defending "their values" — those of "real America" — against the imagined enemy of the moment, whether that is "wokeness," the Black Lives Matter movement, LGBTQ equality, Muslims, immigrants or something else.

Trump's followers and other neofascists do not simply reject the concept that rule of law should apply to all people equally; rather, they understand the law as a weapon they can use to impose their will on others. Such logic is a defining feature of fascism.”

“At Donald Trump's rallies, he has many times recited a poem about a poisonous snake that a woman invites into her home when she finds it freezing outside on a cold night. Once revived, the snake bites her. "Why would you do that," she wails, "when I just saved your life?" The snake replies, "You knew what I was when you took me in."

Trump uses this fable to serve his own purposes, but its real meaning is clear: He is that snake. Like other demagogues and would-be tyrants, Trump has no use for anyone but himself. If we know anything about him, we know that at some point he will turn against even his most adoring followers and most loyal members of his inner circle. Whenever Trump believes it convenient or necessary, they will become the new enemy.

It is a small, faint comfort of history that those who support fascism and other forms of political evil are eventually devoured by the machine and madness they helped to feed, nurture and protect. Unfortunately, that fascist beast, be it here in America or in other parts of the world at other times, consumes the innocent and the good before it feasts on its own people and caretakers.”

Everything that Donald Trump touches, dies.

 

Steve Thomas

[Douglas Caddy]

6 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

I believe it was because of the Secret Service angle; perhaps the IG demanded it? I'll have to check.

But the crux of the matter remains: Ornato was going to be compelled to testify, to talk, because of his employment.

So to remedy that, he quit; became a private citizen, with full ability to take the 5th.

Ornato will be called before the federal grand jury before long. He can take the Fifth there. But most likely he will end up being a target of criminal prosecution. 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Douglas Caddy

[Joe Bauer]

7 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

They can indeed do that. Here is what happened in this particular instance:

As I related a couple months back, the likelihood is that Tony Ornato played a larger role in the events of 1/6 than has so far been revealed. When he attempted to counter the revelations of Cassidy Hutchinson, the committee called his bluff and said "Say that under oath, pal". Ornato has been using delay tactics ever since with regard to coming in to be interviewed in the hope that he can simply wait out the committee. But a date was finally set, this Wednesday.

Now because of his status as an active employee of the U.S. Government, during this interview he could be compelled to testify; in other words, he could not take the 5th. He'd have to talk.

So in order to remove that barrier, he resigned from the Secret Service. So now if he indeed ever shows up for questioning, he won't have to talk. He can plead the 5th.

Thank you for making Ornato's intentions clear.

One disturbing fact that isn't often discussed.

Many of our agency, police, security, military personnel all across the country are ardent followers and loyal supporters of Trump. My guess more than half.

And it is likely imo that some of them in some situations have done things to stall any legal actions against Trump.

I'll guess that even a good amount of members of the Capital building police force on 1,6,2021 were Trump supporters as well.