Unveiling The Limo Stop

[Andrej Stancak]

Chris: 

what was the frame rate in Wiegman film? Dale Myers in his online book on acoustic evidence used a frame rate of 25.6 Hz for Wiegman film while you have used a 24 Hz frame rate (page 1 in this thread). What is the evidence for one or the other frame rate?

[Chris Davidson]

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Chris: 

what was the frame rate in Wiegman film? Dale Myers in his online book on acoustic evidence used a frame rate of 25.6 Hz for Wiegman film while you have used a 24 Hz frame rate (page 1 in this thread). What is the evidence for one or the other frame rate?

Andrej,

Let me rephrase your question into a format that the rest of this forum might understand:

What would I have to do to a film's frame rate(fps) in order to hide the removal of frames?

Myers frame rate for Towner 8mm camera = 22.8fps for his"frame x frame" syncs to work

Zapruder frame rate for 8mm =18.3fps

Towner extant frames according to Myers = 167

Myers-167/22.8 = 7.324 sec

Zapruder-167/18.3 = 9.125sec

                    1.8sec x 18.3fps = 33frames

25.6-24 = 1.6fps

Wiegman 652 frames/24fps = 27.16sec x 1.6 =43.45frames/1.31=(24/18.3) = 33.17frames

P.S. 1963 8mm camera's do not shoot film at 22.8, nor 24fps. Otherwise, they would not be 8mm camera's.

They only shoot at that speed when they are being synced to other films to ultimately hide the removal of excess frames among other alterations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Andrej Stancak]

Thanks, Chris, it should have been a 24 Hz frame rate in Wiegman fim. 

[Robin Unger]

[Robin Unger]

[Robin Unger]

Myers has Wiegman film as 24FPS

[Robin Unger]

Nix film GIF showing the Limo "slowing down to a crawl" at the time of the headshot.

 

 

[Robin Unger]

Jackies "White Glove hand flip" which can be seen in the Nix GIF shown above

Zapruder GIF

 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Robin Unger

[Chris Davidson]

6 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

Myers has Wiegman film as 24FPS

The evolving manipulations.

It helps when someone recognizes the "red flag warnings" and connects them for you.

 

 

[Andrej Stancak]

On 3/30/2023 at 5:48 PM, Chris Davidson said:

The evolving manipulations.

It helps when someone recognizes the "red flag warnings" and connects them for you.

 

 

Thanks, Chris. I believe the frame rate of Wiegman was 24 f.p.s. However, if frame rates were 24 (W) and 18.3 (Z) f.p.s., there are then problems to synchronise the two films. I am still working on one of examples of failed Z-W synchronisation but need to re-check before posting. 

[Chris Davidson]

7 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Thanks, Chris. I believe the frame rate of Wiegman was 24 f.p.s.

Agree

However, if frame rates were 24 (W) and 18.3 (Z) f.p.s., there are then problems to synchronise the two films.

Agree.

I've been conveying this for years.

I am still working on one of examples of failed Z-W synchronisation but need to re-check before posting. 

In case you were unaware, look back at the FPS rate that Mark Tyler (in his film sync project) provided for Wiegman's camera.

He used 28.9fps.

This is the same concept/ problem/mistake you arrive at, as with Myers applying 22.8fps to Towner.

Both made a wrong adjustment(higher rate) in FPS to sync multiple films to Z.

When, in reality, the odd film out is Z.

 

 

My answers are in red.

[Andrej Stancak]

As advertised before, I completed my analysis of temporal alignment of Wiegman and Zapruder film. Unless I made some horrible mistake in choosing the film frame rates, my analysis suggests that Zapruder film needed to be several seconds longer than the extant film. 

My analysis is very simple. Since the frame rates of Wiegman and Zapruder film are known and the frames when both films showed the same scene (Z447 in Zapruder film and W265 in Wiegman film), it was possible to count back to another instant occurring earlier (Altgens6) and check the identity of the scenes depicted in Wiegman film stills and Altgens6. This analysis showed that a period of 10.49 s (or 192 Z frames) would correspond to 252 Wiegman film frames, meaning Wiegman started filming 13 W frames and 10 Z frames before Z255. Logically, there should be at least one frame in Wiegman film, possibly W13, that would show the same locations and postures of people standing in the Depositiry doorway.

To check the identity of Wiegman frame W13 (actually, W12 because for that frame I was able to locate a high-resolution still from jfkassassinationgallery.com) and Altgens6, I compared the locations and postures of the people in the Depository doorway in both stills. I found the following: 1) Carl Jones standing at the western wall of the Depository doorway was standing with his back parallel to the western wall and gazed eastward in Altgens6 but he changed his body orientation about 90 degrees in Wiegman film, so that he stood in parallel with the steps and gazed toward the Tripple Underpass area.  2) Bill Shelley changed the direction of his gaze from eastward in Altgens6 to south-south-west in Wiegman film. 3) Mrs. Stanton, located in the space between Lovelady and Shelley's right shoulder in Altgens6 slipped back behind Lovelady which was a location she also held in Darnell still. The quality of Wiegman stills is very poor, especially in the back of the doorway, so the change in Sarah Stanton's location could only be determined tentatively according to the light-coloured patch above Shelley's head, corresponding to Sarah Stanton's light-coloured hair.

I could not find one single Wiegman frame that would yield the same doorway scene as Altgens6 which cannot be were the temporal integrity of Zapruder film intact. The doorway scene seen in any of Wiegman film frames is younger than the scene seen in Altgens6 which means that Wiegman had to start filming seconds after Altgens6 picture was snapped. The only explanation is that an unknown but substantial number of frames in Zapruder film were eliminated, possibly the frames showing the stoppage of the limo. The transformation of the doorway scene from Altgens6 to Wiegman suggests a minimum period of 2 seconds that had to elapse between the instant when Altgens6 was snapped and the start of Wiegman film, but possibly even 3-5 seconds.

All details of my analysis are here: https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/2023/04/10/the-timing-of-wiegman-film-and-altgens6-photograph-questions-the-continuity-of-frames-in-zapruder-film/

 

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Andrej Stancak

[Chris Davidson]

6 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

 Unless I made some horrible mistake in choosing the film frame rates,

You did not.

my analysis suggests that Zapruder film needed to be several seconds longer than the extant film. 

You are correct.

The doorway scene seen in any of Wiegman film frames is younger than the scene seen in Altgens6 which means that Wiegman had to start filming seconds after Altgens6 picture was snapped.

You are correct.

The only explanation is that an unknown but substantial number of frames in Zapruder film were eliminated, possibly the frames showing the stoppage of the limo.

Once again, you are correct.

The transformation of the doorway scene from Altgens6 to Wiegman suggests a minimum period of 2 seconds that had to elapse between the instant when Altgens6 was snapped and the start of Wiegman film,

At least two seconds.

but possibly even 3-5 seconds.

When removed from other parts of the extant film.

 

All details of my analysis are here: https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/2023/04/10/the-timing-of-wiegman-film-and-altgens6-photograph-questions-the-continuity-of-frames-in-zapruder-film/

 

 

 

 

Nice job Andrej.

 

 

[Chris Davidson]

On 4/10/2023 at 11:00 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

As advertised before, I completed my analysis of temporal alignment of Wiegman and Zapruder film. Unless I made some horrible mistake in choosing the film frame rates, my analysis suggests that Zapruder film needed to be several seconds longer than the extant film. 

My analysis is very simple. Since the frame rates of Wiegman and Zapruder film are known and the frames when both films showed the same scene (Z447 in Zapruder film and W265 in Wiegman film), it was possible to count back to another instant occurring earlier (Altgens6) and check the identity of the scenes depicted in Wiegman film stills and Altgens6. This analysis showed that a period of 10.49 s (or 192 Z frames) would correspond to 252 Wiegman film frames, meaning Wiegman started filming 13 W frames and 10 Z frames before Z255. Logically, there should be at least one frame in Wiegman film, possibly W13, that would show the same locations and postures of people standing in the Depositiry doorway.

To check the identity of Wiegman frame W13 (actually, W12 because for that frame I was able to locate a high-resolution still from jfkassassinationgallery.com) and Altgens6, I compared the locations and postures of the people in the Depository doorway in both stills. I found the following: 1) Carl Jones standing at the western wall of the Depository doorway was standing with his back parallel to the western wall and gazed eastward in Altgens6 but he changed his body orientation about 90 degrees in Wiegman film, so that he stood in parallel with the steps and gazed toward the Tripple Underpass area.  2) Bill Shelley changed the direction of his gaze from eastward in Altgens6 to south-south-west in Wiegman film. 3) Mrs. Stanton, located in the space between Lovelady and Shelley's right shoulder in Altgens6 slipped back behind Lovelady which was a location she also held in Darnell still. The quality of Wiegman stills is very poor, especially in the back of the doorway, so the change in Sarah Stanton's location could only be determined tentatively according to the light-coloured patch above Shelley's head, corresponding to Sarah Stanton's light-coloured hair.

I could not find one single Wiegman frame that would yield the same doorway scene as Altgens6 which cannot be were the temporal integrity of Zapruder film intact. The doorway scene seen in any of Wiegman film frames is younger than the scene seen in Altgens6 which means that Wiegman had to start filming seconds after Altgens6 picture was snapped. The only explanation is that an unknown but substantial number of frames in Zapruder film were eliminated, possibly the frames showing the stoppage of the limo. The transformation of the doorway scene from Altgens6 to Wiegman suggests a minimum period of 2 seconds that had to elapse between the instant when Altgens6 was snapped and the start of Wiegman film, but possibly even 3-5 seconds.

All details of my analysis are here: https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/2023/04/10/the-timing-of-wiegman-film-and-altgens6-photograph-questions-the-continuity-of-frames-in-zapruder-film/

 

 

 

 

Here's some more insight for you.
The graphic incorporates two different versions(earlier one on the left side) of Mark Tyler's frame x frame analysis.
How many extra frames(at a frame rate of 22.8 over 9.125 sec) would it take to give you the same ratio as Z's 18.3?
Compare that answer to the right side down arrow difference.

P.S. Anyone who understands what the graphic is showing and knows the answer to the question, feel free to provide it.

 

[David Josephs]

6 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

P.S. Anyone who understands what the graphic is showing and knows the answer to the question, feel free to provide it.

41.05 frames ?

x / 22.8 = 9.125

x=9.125 * 22.8 = 208.05 - 167 = 41.05

208.05/22.8=9.125 seconds