The scope

[Steve Thomas]

    Deleted

Steve Thomas

Edited April 17 by Steve Thomas

[James DiEugenio]

So Steve, which do you think it is?

Why would someone leave a tag there with Oswald's name on it?  Or do you believe the witnesses, that Oswald never at the gun shop?

[Steve Thomas]

3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

So Steve, which do you think it is?

Why would someone leave a tag there with Oswald's name on it?  Or do you believe the witnesses, that Oswald never at the gun shop?

Jim,

I just don't know. It's very hard to reconcile just exactly what is going on with this ticket.

 

Mr. LIEBELER. But you have no recollection of this tag?
Mr. GREENER. None whatsoever, until, I believe, it was the day on Thanksgiving when they came down here.

Mr. GREENER. No; I said it could possibly be after the newspaper story appeared, but I believe when the tag was found lying on the desk somewhere, that the FBI man was here when it was found.

 

Mr. RYDER. So, we went up to the Irving Sports Shop and I opened it up and got the ticket and showed him. It was just a little repair ticket actually what it amounted to.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it have a number on it?
Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir; I don't remember the number.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you give the tag to Mr. Horton?
Mr. RYDER. No; he told us to hold on to it, keep it and they would probably get it later on and they did. It seems to me like it was 2 or 3 weeks ago they came and got it now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just 2 or 3 weeks ago?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who came and got it?
Mr. RYDER. I don't know; the boss, Mr. Greener, gave it to him. It was on Saturday, I believe it was.

 

So, who is telling the truth?

As far as it being Oswald at the gun shop, Dial Ryder said,

"Mr. RYDER. Of course, we were closed on that Monday.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Irving Sports Shop was closed?
Mr. RYDER. Right, and he came to the house, so, at that time he showed me pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald and pictures of the gun and asked me about it. I said "Well, the face and the body features of Oswald there was real common in this country." I mean, you know, in this area in Texas

Just like I told everybody all along, I couldn't say specifically if it was by seeing pictures if it was him or another Oswald."

Steve Thomas

Edited September 4, 2020 by Steve Thomas

[James DiEugenio]

If someone left the tag there who looked like Oswald, it is very incriminating of a plot.

In fact I think Meagher used this incident in her section about indications of a conspiracy.

Is it not hard to buy that even after the assassination, they would not notice that tag with that name?

[Steve Thomas]

4 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

If someone left the tag there who looked like Oswald, it is very incriminating of a plot.

In fact I think Meagher used this incident in her section about indications of a conspiracy.

Is it not hard to buy that even after the assassination, they would not notice that tag with that name?

Jim,

Ryder said,

"Mr. LIEBELER. You did have quite a lot of work at this time mounting telescopic sights?
Mr. RYDER. Yes; when they left, that's 2 weeks prior to the opening of the deer season here and I guess that 2 weeks I mounted 35, 40, maybe 50 scopes in that week..." 

There could have been any number of people named Oswald.

The ticket that had the name Oswald on it was for drilling and tapping and boresighting. Out Oswald would not have needed that for a rifle he bought that already had a scope mounted on it.

Steve Thomas

 

[Steve Thomas]

To James DiEugenio

Jim,

Just as an aside, how about this for coincidence?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/49th_Armored_Division

“In September 1961, an executive order alerted the division for mobilization at Dallas due to the 1961 Berlin Crisis.[1] On October 15, 1961, the division entered federal service, and it subsequently deployed to Fort Polk, LA. The division was to stay there ten months. In May 1962, the division staged the large-scale Exercise Iron Dragoon, still remembered among National Guard armor exercises. Also while at Fort Polk the division's missile unit became the first Army National Guard unit to fire the Honest John nuclear-tipped surface-to-surface missile. The 49th Armored Division reverted to Texas State control in August 1962.”

 

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/ryder.htm

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been in the military service?
Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. What branch were you in?
Mr. RYDER. Went in the National Guard. 49th Armored Division which I am still an active member.
Mr. LIEBELER. Of the National Guard?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you stationed while on active duty?
Mr. RYDER. Fort Leonard Wood, Fort Knox for advanced individual training, and Fort Polk, La., with the 49th.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of training did you receive?
Mr. RYDER. Armored tank training.
Mr. LIEBELER. You served as a tanker at Fort Polk?
Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your rank in the National Guard?
Mr. RYDER. Now?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. RYDER. Sergeant.

Posted by Rosh Plumlee in the Education Forum 11/12/2004

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/1972-felipe-vidal-santiago/?page=4

(In a response to Larry Hancock)

“I too was in the Texas National Guard 49th Armord Div before I went into the regular Army in 1953 at Ft Bliss Texas... Capt Siewell was my CO officer at Love Field in 1954 until 1956... Do you have my military files? If so who signed off on my becoming a CPL in 1954? So am I lying? You say he resigned the Guard, true... but he actually transfered to the regular Army Reserve, the same as I did...

MOS: WR Plumlee 1795, 3795 Tank Crew man Tk Comander, Sherman Tank. Cpl. Plumlee Mos 'Unknown; Unknown" Ft Bliss Texas; Texas National Guard; Unknown. OO Records at Office of Adjutant General State of Texas Camp Mabry, Texas. Texas National Guard; Texas Forth Army Reserve; Certified Copy of Available Document By; XXX referenced doc.”

Steve Thomas

[Bill Fite]

On 9/3/2020 at 8:00 PM, Steve Thomas said:

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that during the period October and November of 1963, you were the operator of the Sports Dome Rifle Range at 8000 West Davis?
Mr. DAVIS. That is D-r-o-m-e. It is Sports Drome.
Mr. LIEBELER. I was pronouncing it Dome.
Mr. DAVIS. I thought you were.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you still operating that rifle range?
Mr. DAVIS. Yes, we are.

Google Maps 8000 W. Davis:

8000 W. Davis in Dallas is also 8000 E. Main Grand Prarie

Aside:  That's a long way from Ruth Paine's house - 6.9 miles - to go shoot.

[Steve Thomas]

3 hours ago, Bill Fite said:

Aside:  That's a long way from Ruth Paine's house - 6.9 miles - to go shoot.

Bill,

Yes, it is. You can also go here and read what Oswald was supposed to be doing in Irving while he is also supposed to be shooting a gun at the Sports Drome:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=40391#relPageId=286&tab=page

Steve Thomas

 

[Bill Fite]

1 minute ago, Steve Thomas said:

Bill,

Yes, it is. You can also go here and read what Oswald was supposed to be doing in Irving while he is also supposed to be shooting a gun at the Sports Drome:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=40391#relPageId=286&tab=page

Steve Thomas

 

Thanks.... surely the ever-vigilant Ruth Paine or Marina would have noticed Oswald's 3-5 hour absence from the house since he would have had to walk or take the bus.

[Joe Bauer]

20 minutes ago, Bill Fite said:

Thanks.... surely the ever-vigilant Ruth Paine or Marina would have noticed Oswald's 3-5 hour absence from the house since he would have had to walk or take the bus.

Walking or taking a bus 6 and 1/2 miles ... with his rifle in hand?

Owned didn't own a typical rifle carrying case.

He wrapped/stored his rifle in a blanket.

When he took his rifle to General Walker's residence and retrieved it later after burying it after the shooting that night, same question.

A man carrying a long rifle while daytime walking in public or sitting on a city bus was still a suspicious arousing thing back in 1963.

 

 

[Bill Fite]

19 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Walking or taking a bus 6 and 1/2 miles ... with his rifle in hand?

Owned didn't own a typical rifle carrying case.

He wrapped/stored his rifle in a blanket.

When he took his rifle to General Walker's residence and retrieved it later after burying it after the shooting that night, same question.

A man carrying a long rifle while daytime walking in public or sitting on a city bus was still a suspicious arousing thing back in 1963.

 

 

Yep... and there's no bus driver, passenger or passer-by who noticed him and recognized him on TV a week or two later (Nov 22-24) that I am aware of.

[Mark Stevens]

I have a variety of odd stories I rarely get to introduce, I figured this thread was good for this one though.

Anyone familiar with this?

I believe the range is the one being discussed, I've never heard anything about this supposed location though. I believe if this was actually linked to Oswald in some manner we would have heard more about it. If the casings were Carcano ammunition for example...

[Richard Booth]

Looks to me like the script had Oswald picking up a scope separately from the rifle, and this was changed at some point:

1) The BY photos show a rifle with no scope on it and they're supposedly taken right before the Walker shooting.

2) The Walker shooting--"Oswald" misses. "Gee, guess I need to buy a scope"

3) We have an "Oswald" asking about getting work done on his rifle at Furniture Mart. (see H&L pp 747). This "Oswald" drove a car and went in the business to ask about having work done on his rifle. This occurs around November 6th or 7th. While he's in the shop "Oswald" says something that implies he's going to have money to spend in 2 weeks. Couldn't be more obvious what's happening here.

4) The repair tag shows "Oswald" bought and mounted his scope, this is "discovered" on November 23rd when an FBI agent is there at the shop. This is the same place that "Oswald" was referred to when he was at Furniture Mart.

5) NOTE: the "Oswald" at the Sports Drome rifle range doesn't have a scope at first, then later he does. 

It seems so painfully obvious what is going on here. We're supposed to think Oswald is violent, he tried to shoot Walker, he missed, he realized he needs a scope, he goes to a couple places looking for one. He shows up at a gun range *four times* so there are plenty of people who see him firing his gun, at first without a scope then later with a scope.

Somewhere along the way the script changes and we're supposed to think Oswald purchased the rifle with the scope already on it, but that creates problems: the Dial Ryder repair tag now makes no sense, the Furniture Mart appearance looks suspicious, the Sports Drome rifle range appearances look suspicious. 

Meanwhile the money order supposedly used to purchase the weapon was never cashed. Or, it was cashed: months before the money order was even purchased, if we are to believe the WC. How is any of this even possible? 

Seems obvious to me something incredibly wrong is going on here, and yet it's very sloppy and poorly done just like Mexico City was.

CIA follies

Edited September 6, 2020 by Richard Booth

[James DiEugenio]

Well, there is s debate over whether the forty inch version, which was found in the TSBD, came with a scope.

The gunsmith said it did not.  But I think someone found an ad, maybe DVP, where the 40 inch was sold with a scope.  Did Klein's reveal the kinds of scope they sold?

[Richard Booth]

56 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Well, there is s debate over whether the forty inch version, which was found in the TSBD, came with a scope.

The gunsmith said it did not.  But I think someone found an ad, maybe DVP, where the 40 inch was sold with a scope.  Did Klein's reveal the kinds of scope they sold?

I'm unsure about Kleins' products - but looking at H&L, I see it's noted they only sold the 4x scope on the 36 inch rifle, and only for a short period of time. 

I am convinced the "script" for this thing had Oswald buying it separately and then after the assassination this was changed.

H&L p 753

The following day Mr. Ray Johns of channel 8 news received an anonymous telephone call from a man who said that Oswald had his rifle sighted-in on Thursday,
November 21, at a gun shop at 111 or 212 Irving Boulevard. Johns relayed the information to Detective Fay M. Turner at Dallas Police Headquarters.

NOTE: Within 48 hours of the assassination Turner received tips from two anonymous sources about the assassination rifle: 1) it came from Klein s Sporting Goods in Chicago and 2) a man named "Oswald" had his rifle sighted at a gun shop in on Irving Boulevard in Irving, Texas.

These "anonymous tips" reveal what the initial script was to be.

Edited September 6, 2020 by Richard Booth