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Another popular myth debunked...


Vince Palamara
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Another myth debunked: "presidents never rode in an open car after Dallas." There are many photos of LBJ riding in an open limo in 1964 (and even, off and on, 1965-1966), not to mention Presidents Nixon-Bush Senior riding in a limo with a sun roof compartment.
The agent who looks like Hoover is Stu Stout. The other agents are Bob Faison (African American), Hank Rybka (driving), Ham Brown, Ron Pontius, Lem Johns,and a couple hidden for identification. That is Governor Pat Brown of California and Pierre Salinger riding with LBJ. September 1964. NOTE: Abraham Bolden was the first African American on the White House Detail; Faison was the second.
 
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Wow...interesting photo. 

13 men ( most big men ) in or on one car!

Never got close to that many in our teenage car packing days. 

And for just being a former press secretary ole Pierre Salinger sure got around.

Vince, a question for you?

Below is an excerpt of SS limo driver Bill Greer's Warren Commission testimony.

It regards his recollection of the fairly deep indentation in the solid steel windshield frame of the Dallas motorcade presidential limo.

He says he never saw this before 11,22,1963 and only noticed it the day after.

And he says he would have noticed it as he was one of the persons assigned to dress and undress the limo's cloth coverings with clippings around the top and installing or removing the bubble top. He says he would also inspect the limo.

 

Mr. SPECTER. Now calling your attention to a small arrow--
Mr. GREER. Arrow.
Mr. SPECTER. Which points up on what appears to be an indentation, I ask you if you--when was the first time, if at all, that you observed that indentation?


Mr. GREER. I didn't observe that--


Mr. SPECTER. On the car?


Mr. GREER. Until after I got back to Washington, until the car came back to Washington, I saw it at the White House garage. It was the first time I had ever noticed that.


Mr. SPECTER. On what date did you observe that indentation on the car?
Mr. GREER. That was the day after, the 23, would be it. It would be the day after the shooting. We got back from Dallas.


Mr. SPECTER. And what time of the day did you observe the car at the White House garage on that date?
Mr. GREER. It was in the afternoon, I believe. I believe it was in the afternoon, I believe.
Mr. SPECTER. Did anyone call that indentation to your attention at that time?


Mr. GREER. Yes; I was asked if I knew about it.


Mr. SPECTER. Who was it who asked you?


Mr. GREER. I can't remember now who did say that, but I was shown that indentation at the same time I was the break in the glass. I was shown both and asked if I had known but I can't remember who might have asked me.


Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever observed that indentation before the assassination occurred?


Mr. GREER. No, sir. I had never noticed it before at any time. I had never seen it before.


Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever had any occasion to examine closely that metallic area to ascertain whether or not there was such an indentation prior to the assassination?


Mr. GREER. Well, it seems to me I would have prior to that had it been there because I do take care of the car sometimes, and it had never been--I had never noticed it at any previous time.


Mr. SPECTER. I hand you Commission Exhibit 350 and ask you if you are able to state what that depicts?

 

Vince, since the indentation was in heavy "solid steel" ( perhaps to a depth of half an inch or more ) it would have taken at least a strong blow from a ball pin hammer to have made this or a solid bullet imo.

No piece of skull could have penetrated so deeply or evenly in a circle form.

Do you recall any other testimony from SS agents about the indentation in windshield frame that adds or detracts from Greer's?

I have always considered that indentation a much more important fact of evidence in that the testimony of someone as close to the limo and this specific part of it as Greer was before and during the shooting that the indentation wasn't there before the shooting very strongly suggest another bullet entering the limo besides the two causing injuries to have created this.

And if the bullet entering JFK's skull fragmentized, it couldn't have caused the finger tip wide and evenly round indentation in the solid steel windshield frame.

If you have no more info on any other SS testimony of the time line provenance of the indentation that's fine. Always enjoy your SS research findings.

And I still think Clint Hill was in love with Jackie Kennedy.

 

 

 

Edited by Joe Bauer
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5 hours ago, Vince Palamara said:

image.png

It is very hard to believe this Secret Service excuse for the indentation (made to J. Lee Rankin of the Warren Commission in January 1964 [CD80]).

You'd think this would be an easy issue to resolve. There just aren't enough high-res photos of the limo with this portion visible, I guess?

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S.A. Geis says he believes the indentation damage to the windshield frame was done on November 11, 1961 ... over TWO YEARS previous to 11,22,1963?

In two years time possibly hundreds of personnel had to have been close to or even inside the limo. Maintenance men, drivers, let alone those who washed the exterior and cleaned the interior.  Are we supposed to believe that that many close up limo responsible people either missed such a starkly obvious ugly dent...or if they saw this, didn't think it was even worth mentioning?  The president's number 1 show limo?

S.A. agent Bill Greer himself testified to the Warren Commission he was in and around the car extensively. He stated he had to help dress the car in either snapping on or taking off the limo's fabric and bubble top.

He did so in the days right up to the Dallas visit.

When asked if he ever saw the indentation he stated he never did, until the day after 11,22,1963.

I think I saw a picture of the dent "once." Not sure of the source.

My recollection was that if I had a dent like that on the inside of "my" personal car right in front of me every time I drove, I would have seen and noticed it hundreds of times, and felt it was an ugly, unsightly and distracting flaw.

And if I really personally cared about my car and could afford it, I would have had it repaired.

I just can't see federal employees responsible for JFK's most showy public parade car dismissing a dent that obvious if their job was to keep the car in immaculate tip top shape.

 

Edited by Joe Bauer
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41 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

S.A. Geis says he believes the indentation damage to the windshield frame was done on November 11, 1961 ... over TWO YEARS previous to 11,22,1963?

In two years time possibly hundreds of personnel had to have been close to or even inside the limo. Maintenance men, drivers, let alone those who washed the exterior and cleaned the interior.  Are we supposed to believe that that many close up limo responsible people either missed such a starkly obvious ugly dent...or if they saw this, didn't think it was even worth mentioning?  The president's number 1 show limo?

S.A. agent Bill Greer himself testified to the Warren Commission he was in and around the car extensively. He stated he had to help dress the car in either snapping on or taking off the limo's fabric and bubble top.

He did so in the days right up to the Dallas visit.

When asked if he ever saw the indentation he stated he never did, until the day after 11,22,1963.

I think I saw a picture of the dent "once." Not sure of the source.

My recollection was that if I had a dent like that on the inside of "my" personal car right in front of me every time I drove, I would have seen and noticed it hundreds of times, and felt it was an ugly, unsightly and distracting flaw.

And if I really personally cared about my car and could afford it, I would have had it repaired.

I just can't see federal employees responsible for JFK's most showy public parade car dismissing a dent that obvious if their job was to keep the car in immaculate tip top shape.

 

The picture of the dent is in Robert Groden's "The Killing Of A President" page 41. It looks to be maybe an inch or less to the right of the rearview mirror. It sure looks like a bullet hole to me.

 

jfk limo hole.JPG

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I just have a very hard time believing someone who drove that car as many times as S.A. Greer wouldn't have noticed that ugly and easy to see dent/smash.

It was right in front of his face while driving as well as a passenger side front seat mate like S.A. Roy Kellerman.

And especially if Greer had ever been physically engaged in adding on or taking off the bubble top or any other covering that Greer said involved snapping down buttons.

Great picture by the way. This is the one I had seen long ago. It's quite large and pronounced isn't it?

Thanks for finding and posting this.

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4 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

S.A. Geis says he believes the indentation damage to the windshield frame was done on November 11, 1961 ... over TWO YEARS previous to 11,22,1963?

In two years time possibly hundreds of personnel had to have been close to or even inside the limo. Maintenance men, drivers, let alone those who washed the exterior and cleaned the interior.  Are we supposed to believe that that many close up limo responsible people either missed such a starkly obvious ugly dent...or if they saw this, didn't think it was even worth mentioning?  The president's number 1 show limo?

S.A. agent Bill Greer himself testified to the Warren Commission he was in and around the car extensively. He stated he had to help dress the car in either snapping on or taking off the limo's fabric and bubble top.

He did so in the days right up to the Dallas visit.

When asked if he ever saw the indentation he stated he never did, until the day after 11,22,1963.

I think I saw a picture of the dent "once." Not sure of the source.

My recollection was that if I had a dent like that on the inside of "my" personal car right in front of me every time I drove, I would have seen and noticed it hundreds of times, and felt it was an ugly, unsightly and distracting flaw.

And if I really personally cared about my car and could afford it, I would have had it repaired.

I just can't see federal employees responsible for JFK's most showy public parade car dismissing a dent that obvious if their job was to keep the car in immaculate tip top shape.

 

Well said!

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3 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

The picture of the dent is in Robert Groden's "The Killing Of A President" page 41. It looks to be maybe an inch or less to the right of the rearview mirror. It sure looks like a bullet hole to me.

 

jfk limo hole.JPG

Thanks for posting!

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I assume it's a bullet hole too.  There wasn't a hole in the chrome topping in June 1963 as proven by this photo:
AP783597892182.jpg

http://www.apimages.com/metadata/Index/John-F-Kennedy-in-Hesse-1963/8d1e7c9e1a7440d0b243f773d3ba83b9/1087/0

Here is the Warren Commission photo:

CE349-Limousine.jpg

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_CE_349.pdf

Whether the hole came from a whole bullet or from the shrapnel from the head shot, I'm not sure.

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9 hours ago, Mark Tyler said:

I assume it's a bullet hole too.  There wasn't a hole in the chrome topping in June 1963 as proven by this photo:
AP783597892182.jpg

http://www.apimages.com/metadata/Index/John-F-Kennedy-in-Hesse-1963/8d1e7c9e1a7440d0b243f773d3ba83b9/1087/0

Here is the Warren Commission photo:

CE349-Limousine.jpg

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_CE_349.pdf

Whether the hole came from a whole bullet or from the shrapnel from the head shot, I'm not sure.

Ladies and gentlemen;   

Do we have a rock solid piece of JFK conspiracy smoking gun evidence right in front of our faces here?

Seriously, if the picture we are looking at above is the JFK/Dealey Plaza limo and this picture was taken in June of 1963, in the least it proves S.A. Geis's statement of the indentation's provenance is false and whether deliberately or negligently, highly suspicious in it's promotion either way.

It also strongly bolsters S.A. Greer's Warren Commission testimony that he never saw this indentation until "the day after 11,22,1963."

And if it's true that the indentation wasn't there until after the shooting, and it could be proven no piece of secondary impact projecting skull bone could ever cause such deep and uniformally round puncturing of solid steel ... what else could anyone call this impact besides a bullet hole?

Look closely at the bottom (June 1963) picture of the front upper frame piece.

You can so clearly and easily see the difference between the June 1963 frame picture and the one taken after 11,22,1963.

The June, 1963 picture shows a frame piece all along it's front horizontal plane that is free from any indentation damage. You can see the same square breaks along this as you can in the damage photo. 

Also, you cannot say that the sun visors are blocking any view of the frame piece. The visors are pulled out in the latter picture, probably because the sun was shining brightly and directly in front of the Limo as it went down Elm Street.

In both photos however, there is no visor blocking ( whether pulled out and up or left flat)  obstructing the full view of the frame at all.

I've always thought this deep circular shaped indentation in the JFK limo upper front windshield frame ( which I believe to be caused by a bullet ) should have been considered as a huge piece of incredibly important evidence outrageously disputing and contradicting ( scientifically ) the number of shots and bullet trajectory testimony and evidence used to promote the WC line of one shooter and two shots only into the limo.

Didn't the Warren Commission ever see the earlier June, 1963 picture of the JFK limo and it's upper body frame free of any indentation damage?
Obviously not. If they had, they would have no choice but to call and swear in S.A. Geis and confront him regards his false testimony.

Now, I totally believe S.A. Greer's sworn testimony that the indentation was not there until after the shooting on 11,22,1963.

In my opinion, the indentation story will always be one of the most important and personally convincing conspiracy belief foundation ones.

 

Edited by Joe Bauer
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1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

Ladies and gentlemen;   

Do we have a rock solid piece of JFK conspiracy smoking gun evidence right in front of our faces here?

Seriously, if the picture we are looking at above is the JFK/Dealey Plaza limo and this picture was taken in June of 1963, in the least it proves S.A. Geis's statement of this indentation provenance is false and whether deliberately or negligently, highly suspicious in it's promotion either way.

It also strongly bolsters S.A. Greer's Warren Commission testimony that he never saw this indentation until "the day after 11,22,1963."

And if it's true that the indentation wasn't there until after the shooting, and it could be proven no piece of secondary impact projecting skull bone could ever cause such deep and uniformally round puncturing of solid steel ... what else could anyone call this impact besides a bullet hole?

Look closely at the bottom (June 1963) picture of the front upper frame piece.

You can so clearly and easily see the difference between the June 1963 frame picture and the one taken after 11,22,1963.

The June, 1963 picture shows a frame piece all along it's front horizontal plane that is free from any indentation damage. You can see the same square breaks along this as you can in the damage photo. 

Also, you cannot say that the sun visors are blocking any view of the frame piece. The visors are pulled out in the latter picture, probably because the sun was shining brightly and directly in front of the Limo as it went down Elm Street.

In both photos there is no visor blocking ( whether pulled out and up or left flat)  obstructing the full view of the frame at all.

I've always thought this deep circular shaped indentation in the JFK limo upper front windshield frame should have been considered as a huge piece of incredibly important evidence outrageously disputing and contradicting ( scientifically ) the number of shots and bullet trajectory testimony and evidence used to promote the WC line of one shooter and two shots only into the limo.

Didn't the Warren Commission ever see the earlier June, 1963 picture of the JFK limo and it's upper body frame free of any indentation damage? If so, they would have no choice but to call and swear in S.A. Geis and confront him regards his false testimony.

Now, I totally believe S.A. Greer's sworn testimony that the indentation was not there until after the shooting on 11,22,1963.

In my opinion, the indentation story will always be one of the most important and personally convincing conspiracy belief foundation ones.

 

It almost certainly is, Joe. 

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Credibly verified time line, provenance and lab tested real photographs can certainly expose and prove formerly accepted truths as falsehoods.

We all remember "Case Closed" author Gerald Leo Posner's promotion of David Ferrie's claims of never meeting Lee Harvey Oswald being embarrassingly exposed as "flat out wrong" when one of Oswald's fellow student civil air patrol mates produced the famous photo of Oswald's presence at an outdoor group training activity with David Ferrie.

It's a common event.

The Jeffrey Epstein underage sex abuse case is loaded with incrimidating lie exposing and guilt bolstering photographs. One could cite 1,000 more examples.

Until someone proves the June, 1963 JFK limo photograph we see above is an altered forgery, or it's date and location misstated, it is rational to consider it's authenticity and WC finding changing weight as real.

A true "smoking gun" imo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The Warren Commission was concerned enough about this very noticeable steel frame indentation damage to ask S.A. Greer specific questions about it.

They wanted to know it's origin date. 

One must assume someone on the Commission felt the indentation with 5 inches of raised steel metal uplifted above it and side to side was so obvious and unsightly enough that it seems illogical that those responsible for maintaining the showiest car in the presidential fleet would have let it remain. And for two years?

Please.

Was this show limo flown overseas for use as well?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Joe Bauer
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