CIA Chief Says Oswald Was Soviet Agent

[Denny Zartman]

I don't see how the evidence supports Oswald being up in the sixth floor sniper's nest and firing a rifle that day, whether or not he was intending to miss as part of a fake assassination attempt. No nitrates found on his cheek, no prints found on the rifle until after his death, initial reports of a different rifle altogether, Elizabeth Adams not seeing Oswald descending the stairs.

Then you have Arnold Rowland seeing two men on the sixth floor at 12:15 PM. Who were they? Oswald was seen by Carolyn Arnold in the 2nd floor lunchroom at 12:25 PM, the same time the motorcade is expected to pass. Why wasn't Oswald in place at the sniper's nest? Was he really that incompetent, or was dashing up four flights of stairs and shooting at the last minute part of the plan?

[Benjamin Cole]

8 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

It has always been my understanding that the CIA knew it didn't have enough forces to take Cuba and would have needed full air support authorized by Kennedy in order to succeed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion

 

 

That is my understanding too. The CIA believed it had cornered JFK into providing air support but JFK could not be cowed, and instead fired CIA leadership after the debacle, as I am sure you know.  

But did the CIA actively plan for and devise a sure-to-fail mission? They may have been deluded, but they expected to prevail in Cuba. 

[Benjamin Cole]

7 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

I don't see how the evidence supports Oswald being up in the sixth floor sniper's nest and firing a rifle that day, whether or not he was intending to miss as part of a fake assassination attempt. No nitrates found on his cheek, no prints found on the rifle until after his death, initial reports of a different rifle altogether, Elizabeth Adams not seeing Oswald descending the stairs.

Then you have Arnold Rowland seeing two men on the sixth floor at 12:15 PM. Who were they? Oswald was seen by Carolyn Arnold in the 2nd floor lunchroom at 12:25 PM, the same time the motorcade is expected to pass. Why wasn't Oswald in place at the sniper's nest? Was he really that incompetent, or was dashing up four flights of stairs and shooting at the last minute part of the plan?

My take is no one saw LOH at the very moment shots rang out.  Not one person ever said, "Yeah, I was talking to LOH when shots rang out."  Or, "We were loading boxes and heard gunfire." LOH was not photographed anywhere. 

As an aside, I always mention the testimony of Amos Lee Euins, a contemporaneous eye witness who says he saw the "bald" assassin (or one of them), and who (of course) was shunted aside by he WC. But the JFKA community should pay more notice. 

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/euins.htm

 

[Benjamin Cole]

8 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

I don't see why not. Grunts do the grunt work. Fall guys take the fall. Scapegoats take blame. That's what they do. As Joseph Milteer said before the assassination, "they will pick up somebody within hours afterwards, if anything like that would happen just to throw the public off." Either Milteer knew this for certain or he made a logical assumption.

To believe that Oswald would agree to be a rifleman in a false flag plot would mean that he didn't make the same obvious logical assumption that someone would be picked up and assigned the blame, or Oswald had been assured that someone else was going to be the patsy.

Since Oswald knew that already fit the profile of a loner with Russian and Cuban sympathies, it seems hard to believe that he would be assigned a rifleman role and also assured that someone else with a similar profile would take the fall for an intentionally failed assassination attempt. If someone with Russian/Cuban sympathies wasn't picked up and assigned the blame, what's the point of a false flag operation at all?

Well, enough evidence had been concocted over previous months to make LOH into a public and known leftie-commie. So, as long as the Mannlicher-Carcano-Mauser rifle could be traced back to him, then the cover story that a "leftie-loser-Castroite LOH took a pot shot at the President but missed" would hold water. 

My guess is LOH was offered a safe house, new ID, more-glamorous undercover assignments, etc. The heat would be intense for a while, but "no harm no foul" and the incident would blow over eventually. 

However, you may be right.  Every organization makes mistakes, hatches bad plans. There are Edsels everywhere, and I have crafted some of my own. 

Still, what you are proposing is a very dangerous plan---frame a loyal asset, who might sing like a bird after a few years in prison. Or sooner. How would other loyal assets react to this?

I can't say I know a lot of intel-police types. I know the LAPD is very tight and never crosses its own. Are there other examples of the CIA setting up their own loyal officers or assets to be framed for murder? 

 

[Paul Brancato]

9 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

I don't see how the evidence supports Oswald being up in the sixth floor sniper's nest and firing a rifle that day, whether or not he was intending to miss as part of a fake assassination attempt. No nitrates found on his cheek, no prints found on the rifle until after his death, initial reports of a different rifle altogether, Elizabeth Adams not seeing Oswald descending the stairs.

Then you have Arnold Rowland seeing two men on the sixth floor at 12:15 PM. Who were they? Oswald was seen by Carolyn Arnold in the 2nd floor lunchroom at 12:25 PM, the same time the motorcade is expected to pass. Why wasn't Oswald in place at the sniper's nest? Was he really that incompetent, or was dashing up four flights of stairs and shooting at the last minute part of the plan?

Good point. Oswald did not have to be in the loop, and probably wasn’t. He makes a better patsy that way, especially a dead one. 

[Denny Zartman]

14 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

My take is no one saw LOH at the very moment shots rang out.  Not one person ever said, "Yeah, I was talking to LOH when shots rang out."  Or, "We were loading boxes and heard gunfire."

And as Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry said "No one has ever been able to put him in the Texas School Book Depository with a rifle in his hand.” If Oswald had lived to see trial, he would not have been obligated to prove his innocence. It would have been up to the prosecution to prove his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

Just because there are no witness on record saying they were with Oswald doing innocent things at 12:30 PM doesn't mean that he was in the sixth floor sniper's nest. It does not take a witness at the time of a crime for someone to be convicted of a crime or to be absolved with an alibi. The possibility that he could have been up there is not the same as a probability, of course.

Oswald was seen on the 2nd floor at 12:25 PM. According to the official story, he was again seen on the 2nd floor at 12:32 PM. At that time, he was reported as not noticeably perspiring or being out of breath. In my opinion, that alone is compelling circumstantial evidence suggesting it is most probable that he remained on the lower floors during the interval of time in question. When one adds the other factors (lack of nitrates, ect.) the probability of Oswald being up in the sniper's nest at 12:30 PM lessens even further, I believe.

14 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

LOH was not photographed anywhere. 

I think you've made this statement before. There seem to be a significant number of assassination researchers who believe Oswald was photographed outside the building during the assassination.

[Denny Zartman]

16 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

But did the CIA actively plan for and devise a sure-to-fail mission? They may have been deluded, but they expected to prevail in Cuba. 

I'm confused. Isn't this false flag fake assassination theory you've proposed a CIA plot intended to fail?

[Denny Zartman]

15 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Good point. Oswald did not have to be in the loop, and probably wasn’t. He makes a better patsy that way, especially a dead one. 

Logic would seem to suggest that Jack Ruby might have been one of the first few names on Oswald's rat out list.

While I'm not yet persuaded that there was a false flag operation or that Oswald was a rifleman, I believe there is some witness testimony that indicates some people involved might have thought that they were part of a counter-assassination team. Possibly Oswald believed this as well. Certainly he had some role he was told to play.

I personally would be curious to find out the distance from the TSBD second floor lunchroom to a telephone, and especially the distance to the circuit breakers/fuse box.

[Benjamin Cole]

7 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

And as Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry said "No one has ever been able to put him in the Texas School Book Depository with a rifle in his hand.” If Oswald had lived to see trial, he would not have been obligated to prove his innocence. It would have been up to the prosecution to prove his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

Just because there are no witness on record saying they were with Oswald doing innocent things at 12:30 PM doesn't mean that he was in the sixth floor sniper's nest. It does not take a witness at the time of a crime for someone to be convicted of a crime or to be absolved with an alibi. The possibility that he could have been up there is not the same as a probability, of course.

Oswald was seen on the 2nd floor at 12:25 PM. According to the official story, he was again seen on the 2nd floor at 12:32 PM. At that time, he was reported as not noticeably perspiring or being out of breath. In my opinion, that alone is compelling circumstantial evidence suggesting it is most probable that he remained on the lower floors during the interval of time in question. When one adds the other factors (lack of nitrates, ect.) the probability of Oswald being up in the sniper's nest at 12:30 PM lessens even further, I believe.

I think you've made this statement before. There seem to be a significant number of assassination researchers who believe Oswald was photographed outside the building during the assassination.

Denny-

 

Thanks for your comment.

Yes, some people say there might be photographs of LOH on the TSBD steps. I have looked the photos. Some are too blurry to say anything. 

Others have been more or less confirmed as being of a fellow named Lovelady. Besides that, no one on the TSBD steps says they saw Oswald on those steps. As I said, no one says they saw LOH when shots rang out. He was invisible at the moment of the assassination. 

My take on that is that LOH was shooting at the President and intentionally missing, the Tague shot for example, which some people have estimated went 20 feet over the top of the limo. 

Amos Lee Euins witnessed the "real" shooter.  I never understood the way Euins has been buried by everybody. 

 

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/euins.htm

That's my best guess. 

[Benjamin Cole]

7 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

I'm confused. Isn't this false flag fake assassination theory you've proposed a CIA plot intended to fail?

Yes, I contend there was a PR-stunt false-flag assassination attempt, but it was piggy-backed on by CIA elements. 

I do not think the CIA intended Bay of Pigs to fail---they intended to corner JFK into going "all in." 

I am confused also, but that happens a lot...

[Paul Brancato]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Yes, I contend there was a PR-stunt false-flag assassination attempt, but it was piggy-backed on by CIA elements. 

I do not think the CIA intended Bay of Pigs to fail---they intended to corner JFK into going "all in." 

I am confused also, but that happens a lot...

Why do you think Oswald shot at anything that day? What would have motivated him to do so? 

[Benjamin Cole]

1 minute ago, Paul Brancato said:

Why do you think Oswald shot at anything that day? What would have motivated him to do so? 

Thanks for your comment.

Well, maybe I will do a whole post on my pet theory. 

Short version: LOH was run by DA Phillips. Phillips planned a Nov. 22 false-flag assassination attempt on JFK, by LOH. He was to shoot and miss, which explains the Tadue shot. Public outrage would ensue (heavily boosted by CIA presstitutes), and then "something done about Cuba." 

That was the plan. 

Eladio Del Valle, and perhaps others, somehow got wind on the project, and piggy-backed on it to shoot in earnest. 

Why did LOH participate? He was working for Phillips and Phillips told him to. LOH was a CIA asset. LOH wanted to advance up the ranks of CIA assets and this stunt would vault him to the top. 

[Cliff Varnell]

3 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Yes, I contend there was a PR-stunt false-flag assassination attempt, but it was piggy-backed on by CIA elements. 

I do not think the CIA intended Bay of Pigs to fail---they intended to corner JFK into going "all in." 

I am confused also, but that happens a lot...

Really?  “Going all in” was never part of the BOP planning, Bissell never exerted any pressure on JFK to commit US forces, Dean Rusk gave Cabell a chance to plead that case D-Day -1 and Cabell demurred.

Robert Lovett (Brown Brothers Harriman banker) and Joe Kennedy tried to get Ike to fire Dulles.  Richard Bissell was brought into government service by Averell Harriman.  Dean Rusk and McGeorge Bundy were recommended by Lovett.

Lovett, Harriman, Bundy were Skull & Bones, while Bissell was tapped but turned it down.

Joe Kennedy was on the phone with his son throughout the BOP fiasco.

Joe Kennedy soon after the BOP: . "I know that outfit, and I wouldn't pay them a hundred bucks a week. It's a lucky thing they were found out early."

https://www.historyextra.com/period/20th-century/bay-of-pigs-invasion-kennedys-cuban-catastrophe/

<quote on>

That the United States had been behind the operation was soon reported by the press and revealed in the United Nations. Unaccustomed to setbacks in what had so far been a charmed political life, Kennedy was devastated by the Bay of Pigs disaster. An adviser who peeped into the White House bedroom as the operation was failing observed JFK crying in the arms of his wife Jackie. He called his father for advice every hour, yet did not receive the paternal support he had anticipated. “Oh hell,” Joseph Kennedy told his son,“if that’s the way you feel, give the job to Lyndon [Vice President Johnson].”

<quote off>

Sure looks to me like Old Joe and the Yalies sabotaged the BOP in order to get rid of Dulles. 


 

Edited March 1, 2021 by Cliff Varnell

[Benjamin Cole]

3 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Really?  “Going all in” was never part of the BOP planning, Bissell never exerted any pressure on JFK to commit US forces, Dean Rusk gave Cabell a chance to plead that case D-Day -1 and Cabell demurred.

Robert Lovett (Brown Brothers Harriman banker) and Joe Kennedy tried to get Ike to fire Dulles.  Richard Bissell was brought into government service by Averell Harriman.  Dean Rusk and McGeorge Bundy were recommended by Lovett.

Lovett, Harriman, Bundy were Skull & Bones, while Bissell was tapped but turned it down.

Joe Kennedy was on the phone with his son throughout the BOP fiasco.

Joe Kennedy soon after the BOP: . "I know that outfit, and I wouldn't pay them a hundred bucks a week. It's a lucky thing they were found out early."

https://www.historyextra.com/period/20th-century/bay-of-pigs-invasion-kennedys-cuban-catastrophe/

<quote on>

That the United States had been behind the operation was soon reported by the press and revealed in the United Nations. Unaccustomed to setbacks in what had so far been a charmed political life, Kennedy was devastated by the Bay of Pigs disaster. An adviser who peeped into the White House bedroom as the operation was failing observed JFK crying in the arms of his wife Jackie. He called his father for advice every hour, yet did not receive the paternal support he had anticipated. “Oh hell,” Joseph Kennedy told his son,“if that’s the way you feel, give the job to Lyndon [Vice President Johnson].”

<quote off>

Sure looks to me like Old Joe and the Yalies sabotaged the BOP in order to get rid of Dulles. 


 

Interesting interpretation. 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Benjamin, on your pet theory, who was Del Valle and others working for? Who approved their hit(s)? The US military would have known of the CIA plot and maybe they took JFK out ( or approved it)?