JFK Assassination Film GIFS

[Robin Unger]

Hughes Film showing The Limo and follow up car making the turn from Houston st onto Elm st

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Mark Tyler said:

I don't think anyone has proven it to be fake, and the content of the Z-film looks consistent with the other photos and films.  Given that certain frames were published within days of the assassination by Life magazine, I can't see how there was time for any sophisticated faking.  Some other photos and films were broadcast within hours of the assassination so they cannot have been tampered with at all (such as the Wiegman film, and the Altgens photos).

The only faking or touching up I have seen proven relates to the shoe photo in the limo as it sped to the hospital, or the faked image of Oswald in the sixth floor window:

 

Is Dino Brugioni is the guy you may be thinking of?:

I don't see anything too troubling about his recollections from nearly 50 years before, especially considering memories will inevitably get hazy over that period of time.  I'm a great believer in using corroborated witness statements and interviews from 1963/4, but after 50 years I doubt a witness can help when memories are so unreliable.

The explosion in the limo was huge and distributed debris in various directions (including upwards), and I suspect Hargis simply rode into a large part of that debris whereas the bikes on the other side didn't.  The wind must have had an effect as it was gusting at that point as per the coats of Mary Moorman and Jean Hill:

An event such as this is a complete one off and the results are dependent on so many variables like wind direction, exact bullet entry point, head orientation, JFK's physiology, etc it's probably impossible to analyse or model accurately what exactly happened.

The sudden rearward motion of JFK's head is very hard to explain with certainty.  Sadly Z313 and Z314 are too blurry to measure exactly where the head is, but the rearward motion doesn't seem to start until Z315-Z316.  This timing is important because it suggests that the rearward motion has nothing to do with a "jet effect" or the bullet itself, otherwise it should have happened at Z313-Z314.  This delay of 2-3 frames could be consistent with a neuromuscular reaction as mentioned by the HSCA (volume 7, page 174):

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol7/html/HSCA_Vol7_0092b.htm

Sure, I think you are asking reasonable questions.  Verifying evidence and understanding each stage in an investigation is rather important in this case.  In the first week of the investigation back in 1963 the FBI had a very different view of the shot sequence in Dealey Plaza as this telephone call between J Edgar Hoover and Lyndon Johnson shows (8:10 in the video):

Very few researchers think that this shot sequence is now correct, and crucially the Z-film doesn't support what Hoover is saying so clearly it makes no sense to say the Z-film had been faked by that point a week after the shooting.

Thanks for the in depth reply Mark, appreciate it. Are you open to the idea of the original film being shot on more frames and whittled down?

I am just thinking a shot showing the brain matter exiting the grapefruit sized hole at the back of JFK’s head in a removed frame or was missed by the frame rate all together. That may explain you pointing out that the recoil of the head is slightly out. 
 

As always the problem here is that we appear to have more wounds than the Z-Film shows (or any other). 
 

Are you open to two almost simultaneous shots hitting JFK at the moment he is killed? 
 

Thanks

Chris

[Robin Unger]

Towner GIF TSBD Doorway

[Tony Krome]

27 minutes ago, Robin Unger said:

Towner GIF TSBD Doorway

The more I watch this gif, the more the limo rides like a flying carpet.

[David Andrews]

14 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

The more I watch this gif, the more the limo rides like a flying carpet.

Something tells me all these Towner frames could have been created on an aerial imaging camera stand, which was available in 1963.  Would that explain the unchanging shadows on the rear hubcap, among other things?

[Richard Price]

17 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

The more I watch this gif, the more the limo rides like a flying carpet.

I agree with you.  I finally took the time to watch/study it as it ran multiple times.  It's surreal the way the limo seems to float in front of the background and recede off and away from the camera person's position (northward) and forward along Elm St. (westward).  It almost looks like the old "stop motion" animation used for "Gumby" and a few other non cartoon animated short movies.  It is very difficult to pinpoint what has been done, but it certainly looks like some alteration took place.

[Benjamin Cole]

On 5/5/2021 at 12:38 PM, Robin Unger said:

This Nix GIF clearly shows that the limo did NOT stop.

The Limo did however slow to a crawl before it sped off.

I think that's right. I am puzzled why so much time is spent on this issue. I think the driver exhibited a normal human reaction. 

I happen to think there were at least two gunmen in Dealey Plaza that day. 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Benjamin Cole

[John Butler]

18 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

The more I watch this gif, the more the limo rides like a flying carpet.

Yeah!  It just floats along serenely like a dream.  But, remember these films are internally consistent and give us a view of reality.  Ah?  What is the Towner film internally consistent with?  How does the folk in Altgens 6 doorway fit with Towner?  Oh!  But, they are consistent in their world.

The internally consistent crowd ignores anything that doesn't agree with their views from the lone nut world.  I've spent the last 5 years pointing out the inconsistencies of the various media in Dealey Plaza.  There are many others with more talent and expertise doing the same thing.

All my efforts are in vain with that crowd.  Well, except for the ridicule.  I can now hear J & J cranking up their computers to dispel the myths and fantasies I have been creating.     

Edited May 8, 2021 by John Butler

[John Butler]

On 5/6/2021 at 12:59 AM, Robin Unger said:

Darnell GIF

 

Here's something interesting from this gif.  The 1963 Chevy Impala is either Camera Car #1 or Camera Car #2.  If I am remembering correctly they were not released from Houston Street to Elm Street until about 40 seconds after the assassination.  Baker is supposedly making his run to the TSBD doorway.

Didn't he zip right down there in about 15 seconds.  If that is Baker making his run he didn't get there until about 40 or 45 seconds according to this gif.  That only leaves about 45 seconds or less to confront Roy Truly and move into the building, check the elevators, and then climb two flights of steps to confront Oswald in the 2nd floor break room.  Could he do that in less than 45 seconds.  Or, is that motorcycle policeman some other person than Marion Baker?

[Mark Tyler]

On 5/7/2021 at 6:27 AM, Chris Barnard said:

Thanks for the in depth reply Mark, appreciate it.

Cheers!  I don't always have time to write longer posts, but sometimes they are helpful to explain my thinking in more detail.  It also gives readers an opportunity to disagree, and maybe correct any mistakes I have made such as misinterpreting a photo or witness statement.

On 5/7/2021 at 6:27 AM, Chris Barnard said:

Are you open to the idea of the original film being shot on more frames and whittled down?

I doubt this happened as the number of frames between shots was mentioned very early on, such as here by Paul Mandel in early December 1963:

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/White Materials/White Assassination Clippings Folders/Oswald Family Folders/Oswald/Osw-03.pdf

Mandel mentioned the early lone nut theory which was that JFK was hit in the back first, then Connally, and finally JFK in the head.  He said the frame number gaps between shots were 74 and 48.  Working back from the Z313 head shot, he thinks Connally was hit at Z265 (as he turned to look back at JFK), and then JFK was hit in the back at Z191.  There is a kind of logic to this, and it does match what the FBI thought at that time, but most people now think this analysis is wrong.  It is also seemingly what Dan Rather describes as early as 25th November:

I don't think there was any need to remove or alter frames as Life magazine effectively censored the use of the Z-film due to it's rather gruesome nature (researchers are somewhat desensitised now, but the Z-film is very unpleasant to watch if you've not seen it before).  As we know, when it was finally publicly shown in 1975 it created a wave of interest in the case, especially in terms of a conspiracy (note the gasps from the shocked audience after Z313):

When you revisit history like this it's a helpful reminder of how perceptions of the evidence have changed.  Early on only cherry-picked frames were revealed, which gave a very partial view of the event, but eventually it all came out and it shocked everyone who saw it.  This is a nice way of understanding why the HSCA investigation was required in the late 1970's, and how so many conspiracy theories were developed over the next 15 years or so into the 1990's (when the lone nut side of the debate started to fight back, e.g. Posner & Myers).

On 5/7/2021 at 6:27 AM, Chris Barnard said:

I am just thinking a shot showing the brain matter exiting the grapefruit sized hole at the back of JFK’s head in a removed frame or was missed by the frame rate all together. That may explain you pointing out that the recoil of the head is slightly out. 
 

As always the problem here is that we appear to have more wounds than the Z-Film shows (or any other). 

The lack of a hole at the back of JFK's head in the Z-film after Z315 is very strange considering the Dallas medical staff all mention it very explicitly.  I think this is one of those important anomalies that is difficult to explain.  One possibility might be that the skull broke into several large pieces at Z313, but for a few seconds the scalp just about held the back of the skull into place.  Then as JFK fell down into the seat the scalp fell away and revealed the hole which was discovered soon after at the hospital.  The X-Rays do indicate a large detached bone at the back of the head, so this could explain things:

On 5/7/2021 at 6:27 AM, Chris Barnard said:

Are you open to two almost simultaneous shots hitting JFK at the moment he is killed? 

Probably not in terms of both hitting at Z313 as that looks like a single impact to me, although that's hard to prove either way.  I can't rule out a shot soon after Z313 as the film is so blurred in parts it may well hide an impact that occurred after Z318, such as near Z330 as Josiah Thompson mentioned recently in his new book.  In other words I'm fairly open minded about two head shots, but it seems very difficult to prove or disprove with certainty.

[Mark Tyler]

15 hours ago, John Butler said:

Here's something interesting from this gif.  The 1963 Chevy Impala is either Camera Car #1 or Camera Car #2.  If I am remembering correctly they were not released from Houston Street to Elm Street until about 40 seconds after the assassination.  Baker is supposedly making his run to the TSBD doorway.

My calculation of the gap between the head shot and the restart of the camera cars is about 25 seconds.  We know this fairly accurately thanks to the Wiegman film which runs continuously for about 23-27 seconds, depending on whether it was running at 24 or 29 FPS (I favour 29 FPS, and a 23 second gap).  In the Couch film, which was taken at the same time as the Darnell clip, we see Wiegman running down the grass towards the Newman family so it must be just after this 23-27 second sequence ended as he was filming the Hester's as he crouched on the steps in front of the pergola, as shown in the Bell film (bottom left image):

Here is a Wiegman frame near the end of the sequence:

15 hours ago, John Butler said:

Didn't he zip right down there in about 15 seconds.  If that is Baker making his run he didn't get there until about 40 or 45 seconds according to this gif.  That only leaves about 45 seconds or less to confront Roy Truly and move into the building, check the elevators, and then climb two flights of steps to confront Oswald in the 2nd floor break room.  Could he do that in less than 45 seconds.  Or, is that motorcycle policeman some other person than Marion Baker?

Based on Baker entering the building about 45 seconds after the head shot, it would probably take a minute to: speak to Truly; get up the stairs; etc; which is about 1 minute 45 seconds.  That sounds about long enough for Oswald to scuttle down the stairs (assuming it was him on the sixth floor), but thats a whole other thread!

I think it is probably Baker in the Darnell/Couch clips, as the other bikes had either left Dealey Plaza or were one of the four bikers visible in the Couch film:

I think Haygood is in the foreground zig-zagging around the cars, Courson in the middle distance with McLain approaching Hargis's parked bike.  Hargis then scuttles across from the lamppost to his bike:

Hargis is next seen in the Bond 4 photo having just nipped across in front of Courson:

Smart and Dale were meanwhile sat on their bikes waiting on Main/Houston street for the motorcade to restart as shown in the Paschall film:

It's a bit blurry but you can see Dale restart and zoom away at 1:10-1:15, going round the corner as he tries to catch up the bus.  At 1:05 Smart is partly obscured just to the left of the bus as they both move off together along Houston Street.  A clearer version of the film would be better but I'm not sure one exists in the public domain?

The full motorcade vehicle and personnel listing is here:

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/M Disk/Motorcade Route/Item 15.pdf

[John Butler]

3 hours ago, Mark Tyler said:

My calculation of the gap between the head shot and the restart of the camera cars is about 25 seconds.  We know this fairly accurately thanks to the Wiegman film which runs continuously for about 23-27 seconds,

Mark,

This is a frame from Unger's gif showing what I believe is Camera Car #2.  It could be #1, but I think the guy in the back of the Chevy is in Camera Car #2.   It makes little difference since Camera Car #1 is just ahead. 

This montage shows you something interesting.

It is roughly the same time period in the two frames, within just a few seconds.  The p. limo has left the area.  You can see this is the Couch frame.  I believe the Couch frame shows 3 lanes so I don't think I am missing anything.  If there is anything down there under the Triple Underpass then that would be the No. 12 car, the National Press Pool Car.  It looks like it is clear so actually more time has passed in this Couch frame.  12 vehicles had to clear the Triple Underpass and leave Dealey Plaza when this Couch frame was filmed.  It is unknown how much time has passed, but let's try to figure it out.  

Let's use that "perfect clock" of the "forensically pure Zapruder film" as a way to solve how much time as passed.  We won't even consider missing frames which someone has calculated could extend to about 17 seconds.

From when the Zapruder Gap ended at frame Z 133 to the last frame, Z 486 we can calculate how long has it been since the p. limo left Dealey Plaza.  By the way, you call the end of the Zapruder Gap, the camera restart.  Zapruder said he filmed continuously and did not restart his camera.

Frame Z 133 to Z 486 at 18.4 frames per second:  19.2 seconds

Frame Z 001 to Z 132:  7.1 seconds.  This time is for the distance of approximately 100 feet which is the width of the TSBD.

So far this gives a time of 26.3 seconds which is close to your estimate.  However, there is more to come.  12 vehicles have to turn from off of Houston Street onto Elm Street and then clear the Elm Street.  It is not enough to just track the p. limo.  The Mayor's Car was stopped at the intersection and not allowed to proceed. 

How long did that Caravan of 12 vehicles take to clear Dealey Plaza.  Well let's use that 7.1 second from Z 001 to Z 132 as a counter and add 1 second for each vehicle after the p. limo.  (This is just a guess, but close I would think)

3 vehicles traveling through the first 133 feet to show up in the Zapruder film at that frame.  This would be the Secret Service Car, the VP's car, and the VP's security vehicle.  3 vehicles/3 seconds.

Our total is now up to 29.3 seconds.  For the remainder of the 12 vehicles to to clear the Plaza and not be filmed I would say again just a guess another 1 second per car average.  That would be 8 more seconds.  

Our total is now 37.3 seconds.

Then we have to add how long the vehicles remained at the Houston and Elm intersection before proceeding out onto Elm.  Base on Darnell/Weigman I believe I calculated 38 seconds.  Weigman, if my memory is correct and I should really look this up in my notes, filmed the Camera Cars turning into the intersection.

Time on Houston street is 38 seconds.  So 37.3 Plus 38 seconds is 75. 3 seconds or 1 minute 15.3 seconds.

That leaves Baker, If that truly is Baker, 14.7 seconds to get to the 2nd floor break room and confront Oswald pistol drawn.  Sandy Larsen made a good case that the motorbike cop ran past the steps and did not enter the building.

Conclusion:  The motorcycle policeman is not Baker. 

Just as an aside, where are the 10 railroad men and Officer Foster on the railroad bridge in this crop and mag of the Couch frame.  I guess they just wandered off somewhere.

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by John Butler

[Mark Tyler]

On 5/8/2021 at 10:01 PM, John Butler said:

It is roughly the same time period in the two frames, within just a few seconds.  The p. limo has left the area.  You can see this is the Couch frame.  I believe the Couch frame shows 3 lanes so I don't think I am missing anything.  If there is anything down there under the Triple Underpass then that would be the No. 12 car, the National Press Pool Car.  It looks like it is clear so actually more time has passed in this Couch frame.  12 vehicles had to clear the Triple Underpass and leave Dealey Plaza when this Couch frame was filmed.  It is unknown how much time has passed, but let's try to figure it out.  

Let's use that "perfect clock" of the "forensically pure Zapruder film" as a way to solve how much time as passed.  We won't even consider missing frames which someone has calculated could extend to about 17 seconds.

From when the Zapruder Gap ended at frame Z 133 to the last frame, Z 486 we can calculate how long has it been since the p. limo left Dealey Plaza.  By the way, you call the end of the Zapruder Gap, the camera restart.  Zapruder said he filmed continuously and did not restart his camera.

Frame Z 133 to Z 486 at 18.4 frames per second:  19.2 seconds

Frame Z 001 to Z 132:  7.1 seconds.  This time is for the distance of approximately 100 feet which is the width of the TSBD.

So far this gives a time of 26.3 seconds which is close to your estimate.  However, there is more to come.  12 vehicles have to turn from off of Houston Street onto Elm Street and then clear the Elm Street.  It is not enough to just track the p. limo.  The Mayor's Car was stopped at the intersection and not allowed to proceed. 

How long did that Caravan of 12 vehicles take to clear Dealey Plaza.  Well let's use that 7.1 second from Z 001 to Z 132 as a counter and add 1 second for each vehicle after the p. limo.  (This is just a guess, but close I would think)

3 vehicles traveling through the first 133 feet to show up in the Zapruder film at that frame.  This would be the Secret Service Car, the VP's car, and the VP's security vehicle.  3 vehicles/3 seconds.

Our total is now up to 29.3 seconds.  For the remainder of the 12 vehicles to to clear the Plaza and not be filmed I would say again just a guess another 1 second per car average.  That would be 8 more seconds.  

Our total is now 37.3 seconds.

Then we have to add how long the vehicles remained at the Houston and Elm intersection before proceeding out onto Elm.  Base on Darnell/Weigman I believe I calculated 38 seconds.  Weigman, if my memory is correct and I should really look this up in my notes, filmed the Camera Cars turning into the intersection.

Time on Houston street is 38 seconds.  So 37.3 Plus 38 seconds is 75. 3 seconds or 1 minute 15.3 seconds.

That leaves Baker, If that truly is Baker, 14.7 seconds to get to the 2nd floor break room and confront Oswald pistol drawn.  Sandy Larsen made a good case that the motorbike cop ran past the steps and did not enter the building.

Conclusion:  The motorcycle policeman is not Baker. 

This is a rather complicated way to look at things!  Think about it more simply in terms of overlapping films and where McLain and Baker are: the Hughes film shows Baker on his bike having just turned onto Houston Street near camera car #3 and just ahead of the cream Congressman #1 car (McLain has just passed to the left of the frame and is about in line with Congressman #1):

The Hughes film overlaps the Z-film so we know it finishes at about Z190 at the above frame.  Then we have the Dorman film which we can align to the Z-film at various points thanks to various sync points such as the Wiegman film and the Mayors car.  At about Z410 we see McLain in the Dorman film exactly where we would expect him to be, near the Congressman cars:

We can't see Baker here of course as he is far out of frame to the left, so lets assume he stays in formation near camera car #3 as it turned onto Elm Street.  And this is where my animated reconstruction comes in helpful as it joins together the known vehicle positions, and smoothly interpolates them through the unknown positions and times:

https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html

If Baker and McLain stayed in formation at the same speed as the cars around them, they were both in exactly the right position in the Couch/Darnell clips.  It's a clean and simple explanation that fits the photographic record perfectly.  No complex calculations are needed when viewing the animation as you can see the vehicles move on the map, and I have even put the vehicle speeds on the right hand side to help understand how vehicles slowed down at the corners, and then gently accelerated away and out of Dealey Plaza.

Anyone can pause the video and study in detail what they see, and how it relates to the photographic record.  As I've said throughout the last two years, if I have made any mistakes I'm happy to adjust things, but thankfully I've now reached the point where mistakes tend to be rather minor affairs with no major errors or omissions remaining.  Voila!

On 5/8/2021 at 10:01 PM, John Butler said:

Just as an aside, where are the 10 railroad men and Officer Foster on the railroad bridge in this crop and mag of the Couch frame.  I guess they just wandered off somewhere.

 

The resolution of this image is too low to see the people on the bridge, so have a look at this Dillard photo taken soon after:

If you look closely you can even see James Tague on the left, and Sam Holland on top of the bridge, both exactly where they should be at this point in the sequence according to the other films and witness statements.

[John Butler]

6 hours ago, Mark Tyler said:

The resolution of this image is too low to see the people on the bridge, so have a look at this Dillard photo taken soon after:

This is after the assassination when lots of people went up to the railroad bridge area.  Officer Foster and the railroad men were just off the bridge above the grassy slope that leads up to the bridge.  The area where famous shot of the officer standing or about on the bridge.

 

6 hours ago, Mark Tyler said:

If you look closely you can even see James Tague on the left, and Sam Holland on top of the bridge, both exactly where they should be at this point in the sequence according to the other films and witness statements.

Yep.  I have no doubt they moved out onto the bridge to get a better view of what happened.

6 hours ago, Mark Tyler said:

This is a rather complicated way to look at things!

Not really.  It uses only one reference for the most part.  The infamous Zapruder film.

....

Marion Baker- 11-22-63 Dallas County affadavit

“At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building.”

He gives this information on his general approach to the TSBD.  He doesn’t mention any time for this behavior.  But, by the time of the WC time has become important.

Marion Baker- Warren Commission- 25 March 1964.  On where he was stationed:

“Mr. BAKER - There were four press cars carrying the press and I was right at the side of that last one.
Representative BOGGS -The last press car?
Mr. DULLES - The last press car?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.”

(about the 15^th car in the motorcade)

And, when he left his station:

“Mr. BELIN - All right. After the third shot, then, what did you do?
Mr. BAKER - Well, I revved that motorcycle up and I went down to the corner which would be approximately 180 to 200 feet from the point where we had first stated, you know, that we heard the shots.
Mr. BELIN - What distance did you state? What we did on Friday afternoon, we paced off from the point you thought you heard the first shot to the point at which you parked the motorcycle, and this paced off to how much?
Mr. BAKER - From 180 to 200 feet.
Mr. BELIN - That is where you parked the motorcycle?
Mr. BAKER - Yes.”

Then Baker proceeded into the building….

“Representative BOGGS -That question about time I would like to establish.
How long would you say it was from the time that you first heard the shots until that episode occurred?
Mr. BAKER - We went back and made two trial runs on that, and---
Mr. BELIN - Was that on Friday, March 20?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Mr. BAKER - And the first run we made it was a minute and 30 seconds, and--
Mr. DULLES - Will you say from what time to what time, from the last shot?
Mr. BAKER - From the last shot.
Mr. BELIN - The first shot.
Mr. DULLES - The first shot?
Mr. BAKER - The first shot.
We simulated the shots and by the time we got there, we did everything that I did that day, and this would be the minimum, because I am sure that I, you know. it took me a little longer.
Mr. DULLES - I want to get clear in my mind and for the record, it started at the first shot and when did it terminate, when you saw Oswald?
Mr. BAKER - When we saw Oswald.
Mr. DULLES - When you saw Oswald?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES - And that time is how much?
Mr. BAKER - The first run would be a minute and 30 seconds, and then we did it over, and we did it in a minute and 15 seconds.”

It's clear from this record that most of the time of the 90 seconds was spent in the TSBD.  How much time?  Perhaps a minute and 10 or 15 seconds.  Which would have given him about 15 or 20 seconds to arrive at the TSBD doorway.  Perhaps just a little longer.

He got to the building and entered before the camera cars were released to travel on Elm Street and the various camera men made their films.

Conclusion:  Baker was not the policemen seen in the Unger gif.

Edited May 10, 2021 by John Butler