Oswald said someone took his picture and superimposed his face on the backyard photos

[John Butler]

Hmmn?  A person wants a single fact, but says there are none, and he as a "serious researcher" wouldn't believe it anyway.

The question here, which I advise Jim Hargrove form time to time, is "why waste your time on answering something like this?".   

The "never believeable" facts.  The strident saying you didn't answer the question over and over again.  The endless request for facts that are never believed, and the endless questions that have been answered over and over again.   Why waste your time with these as one researcher says are cointelpro techniques. 

[Pamela Brown]

9 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

If I see a person with super clean white straight teeth I trust them less. Maybe the whole rotten teeth thing was a KGB ploy. I'm kidding except for the first part.

 

Let's start from the perspective/hypothesis that if you're going to set someone up as the patsy for an assassination, what do you need to do beforehand?  I think it is only logical that the person be tracked in terms of their whereabouts and also their mindset, ahead of time. 

Lee seemed to think he was taking a Russian bride, which would give him greater credentials as he switched from side-to-side.  But he soon realized Marina was something more than that. It was at that point he began to separate himself from her.  He even tried to send her back to the USSR.  (Thank you, Beatles)...

I think Lee's growing realization that he was indeed being tracked and observed and information was going to others contributed to his increasing anger and frustration at Marina...

[Pamela Brown]

9 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

An interesting perspective, thank you.

You're welcome...as perhaps you can see, I don't see the assassination of JFK having stemmed only from within the US...

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Pamela Brown said:

Lee seemed to think he was taking a Russian bride, which would give him greater credentials as he switched from side-to-side.  But he soon realized Marina was something more than that. It was at that point he began to separate himself from her. 

 

Pamela,

I think we can see evidence of that in a letter Lee wrote to his mother in October of 1961.

(He dated the letter 1959, but I think he misdated it.) (Either that, or something else was weirdly going on).

What newly married couple, who have only been married for six months, take mutually agreed upon separate vacations 600 miles apart?

CE 183 p. 538

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=562

 

PS: Do you think that this particular aunt was married to the same Colonel who was in the MVD pr KGB or whatever, or was it a different aunt?

If it was the aunt who was married to the Colonel, my suspicious antennae are going up.

Steve Thomas

Edited July 17, 2021 by Steve Thomas

[Chris Bristow]

6 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

Let's start from the perspective/hypothesis that if you're going to set someone up as the patsy for an assassination, what do you need to do beforehand?  I think it is only logical that the person be tracked in terms of their whereabouts and also their mindset, ahead of time. 

Lee seemed to think he was taking a Russian bride, which would give him greater credentials as he switched from side-to-side.  But he soon realized Marina was something more than that. It was at that point he began to separate himself from her.  He even tried to send her back to the USSR.  (Thank you, Beatles)...

I think Lee's growing realization that he was indeed being tracked and observed and information was going to others contributed to his increasing anger and frustration at Marina...

The theory that he was a paid FBI Informer has some Merit. The Attorney General of Texas telling the WC that his trusted source said Oswald was getting 200 dollars a month from the f b i. As I recall there was similar testimony by someone who worked in the New Orleans FBI office.

If this is true he could have been thoroughly controlled, manipulated and groomed for his role as a patsy. He could have been instructed to go to the Texas theater that afternoon to me to contact. He could have been told to take the bag into the TSB that morning. He could have been told to bring a handgun to the theater. He could have been given a specific route to walk to the theater to put him near The tippet Killing at the correct time. They may say walk this specific route and if a car pulls up next to you and gives the code word get in the car. If they don't show up proceed to the theater and be there by 1:15 p.m. . Maybe they tell him to keep his Hidell I D in his wallet because he might need it.

I'm reaching pretty far with those scenarios but the point is if he was a low-level intelligence operative he could have been very tightly controlled.

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

9 hours ago, John Butler said:

Hmmn?  A person wants a single fact, but says there are none, and he as a "serious researcher" wouldn't believe it anyway.

The question here, which I advise Jim Hargrove form time to time, is "why waste your time on answering something like this?".   

The "never believeable" facts.  The strident saying you didn't answer the question over and over again.  The endless request for facts that are never believed, and the endless questions that have been answered over and over again.   Why waste your time with these as one researcher says are cointelpro techniques. 

You are the one who made the claim that Marina Oswald was a Russian spy before and after the assassination. I asked you to support it with evidence. Clearly you cannot, or you would. So since you appear to be punting on this one, I will open the question up to anybody else on this forum to provide evidence to support the notion that Marina Oswald was a Russian spy before and after the assassination.

[Pamela Brown]

2 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

The theory that he was a paid FBI Informer has some Merit. The Attorney General of Texas telling the WC that his trusted source said Oswald was getting 200 dollars a month from the f b i. As I recall there was similar testimony by someone who worked in the New Orleans FBI office.

If this is true he could have been thoroughly controlled, manipulated and groomed for his role as a patsy. He could have been instructed to go to the Texas theater that afternoon to me to contact. He could have been told to take the bag into the TSB that morning. He could have been told to bring a handgun to the theater. He could have been given a specific route to walk to the theater to put him near The tippet Killing at the correct time. They may say walk this specific route and if a car pulls up next to you and gives the code word get in the car. If they don't show up proceed to the theater and be there by 1:15 p.m. . Maybe they tell him to keep his Hidell I D in his wallet because he might need it.

I'm reaching pretty far with those scenarios but the point is if he was a low-level intelligence operative he could have been very tightly controlled.

 

I don't know at this point how cognizent I think Lee was about what was happening to him.  It seems to me the outrage and violence he showed in his relationship with Marina might have been a result of his feeling like he had been suckered into something he didn't understand.  I think Lee was tracked and observed by both KGB and CIA.

Per Joan Mellen, he may even have met RFK. That, of course, would open the door to his having been wittingly involved somehow. So it's not impossible he was an informant.  Agent Hosty told me, however, that he didn't think Lee was smart enough to be a spy...but Marina was...

[Pamela Brown]

8 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Pamela,

I think we can see evidence of that in a letter Lee wrote to his mother in October of 1961.

(He dated the letter 1959, but I think he misdated it.) (Either that, or something else was weirdly going on).

What newly married couple, who have only been married for six months, take mutually agreed upon separate vacations 600 miles apart?

CE 183 p. 538

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=562

 

PS: Do you think that this particular aunt was married to the same Colonel who was in the MVD pr KGB or whatever, or was it a different aunt?

If it was the aunt who was married to the Colonel, my suspicious antennae are going up.

Steve Thomas

Good find! I am stunned. I did not know of this. 

Looks like the uncle in MVD lived in Minsk (previous page)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=561

Her aunt in Krakow is "Palina" and I am not finding anything else (yet) out about her.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=562

Very odd indeed...

This article questions the trip...along with a lot of other things...

https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/mystery-marina-oswald

 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Pamela Brown

[Steve Thomas]

8 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

Very odd indeed...

This article questions the trip...along with a lot of other things...

https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/mystery-marina-oswald

 

Pamela,

The whole thing stinks to high heaven. (Pardon my French).

I didn't realize the whole 10 days thing from marriage proposal to ceremony.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharkiv#Post-World_War_II

“Industry plays a significant role in Kharkiv's economy, specialized primarily in machinery and electronics. There are hundreds of industrial facilities throughout the city, including the Morozov Design Bureau and the Malyshev Tank Factory (leaders in world tank production from the 1930s to the 1980s); Khartron (aerospace, nuclear power plants and automation electronics); Turboatom (turbines for hydro-, thermal- and nuclear-power plants); and Antonov (the multipurpose aircraft manufacturing plant).“

 

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

2 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharkiv#Post-World_War_II

“Industry plays a significant role in Kharkiv's economy, specialized primarily in machinery and electronics. There are hundreds of industrial facilities throughout the city, including the Morozov Design Bureau and the Malyshev Tank Factory (leaders in world tank production from the 1930s to the 1980s); Khartron (aerospace, nuclear power plants and automation electronics); Turboatom (turbines for hydro-, thermal- and nuclear-power plants); and Antonov (the multipurpose aircraft manufacturing plant).“

 

Steve Thomas

Once again, I see Marina Oswald associated, though peripherally, with the aerospace industry.

Steve Thomas

 

[Denny Zartman]

14 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

They may say walk this specific route and if a car pulls up next to you and gives the code word get in the car.

...

I'm reaching pretty far with those scenarios...

The fact that a police car pulled up in front of Oswald's rooming house, honked lightly twice, and then left, makes me think that you're not reaching very far at all on this particular point, at least.

[Joe Bauer]

North Beckley housekeeper Earline Roberts was described very derogatorily by her boss Mrs. Johnson as not a great worker ( she was old and tired ) and a "teller of tall tales."

Johnson just ripped Earlene Roberts.

So, here's the "tall tale" Earlene Robert's made up about her 1:pm November 22nd, encounter with a returning Lee Oswald. Full of embellishments like a gossiper would add?

To the Warren Commission:

BALL. And Friday was the day the President was shot? Had you seen him at any time that Friday before the officers came up and knocked on your door?
Mrs. ROBERTS. No.
Mr. BALL. Hadn't he been home?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, let's see--that was the day.
Mr. BALL. That was on a Friday---
Mrs. ROBERTS. Wait a minute, let me think of it.
Mr. BALL. That's on a Friday.
Mrs. ROBERTS. I had better back up a minute---he came home that Friday in an unusual hurry.
Mr. BALL. And about what time was this?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, it was after President Kennedy had been shot and I had a friend that said, "Roberts, President Kennedy has been shot," and I said, "Oh, no." She said, "Turn on your television," and I said "What are you trying to do, pull my leg?" And she said, "Well, go turn it on." I went and turned it on and I was trying to clear it up---I could hear them talking but I couldn't get the picture and he come in and I just looked up and I said, "Oh, you are in a hurry." He never said a thing, not nothing. He went on to his room and stayed about 3 or 4 minutes.
Mr. BALL. As he came in, did you say anything else except, "You are in a hurry"?
Mrs. ROBERTS. No.
Mr. BALL. Did you say anything about the President being shot?
Mrs. ROBERTS. No.
Mr. BALL. You were working with the television?
Mrs. ROBERTS. I was trying to clear it up to see what was happening and try to find out about President Kennedy.
Mr. BALL. Why did you say to this man as he came in, "You are in a hurry,"why did you say that?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, he just never has come in and he was walking unusually fast and he just hadn't been that way and I just looked up and I said, "Oh, you are in a hurry."
Mr. BALL. You mean he was walking faster than he usually was?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. When he came in the door, what did he do?
Mrs. ROBERTS. He just walked in---he didn't look around at me---he didn't say nothing and went on to his room.
Mr. BALL. Did he run?
Mrs. ROBERTS. He wasn't running, but he was walking pretty fast---he was all but running.
Mr. BALL. Then, what happened after that?
Mrs. ROBERTS. He went to his room and he was in his shirt sleeves but I couldn't tell you whether it was a long-sleeved shirt or what color it was or nothing, and he got a jacket and put it on---it was kind of a zipper jacket.
Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen him wear that jacket before?
Mrs. ROBERTS. I can't say I did---if I did, I don't remember it.
Mr. BALL. When he came in he was in a shirt?
Mrs. ROBERTS. He was in his shirt sleeves.
Mr. BALL. What color was his shirt? Do you know?
Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't remember. I didn't pay that much attention for I was interested in the television trying to get it fixed.
Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen that shirt before or seen him wear it---the shirt, or do you know?
Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't remember---I don't know.
Mr. BALL. You say he put on a separate jacket?
Mrs. ROBERTS. A jacket.
Mr. BALL. I'll show you this jacket which is Commission Exhibit 162---have you ever seen this jacket before?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, maybe I have, but I don't remember it. It seems like the one he put on was darker than that. Now, I won't be sure, because I really don't know, but is that a zipper jacket?
Mr. BALL. Yes---it has a zipper down the front.
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, maybe it was.
Mr. BALL. It was a zippered jacket, was it?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; it was a zipper jacket. How come me to remember it, he was zipping it up as he went out the door.
Mr. BALL. He was zipping it up as he went out the door?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Then, when you saw him, did you see any part of his belt?
Mrs. ROBERTS. No.
Mr. BALL. There is some suspicion that when he left there he might have had a pistol or a revolver in his belt; did you see anything like that?
Mrs. ROBERTS. No; I sure didn't.
Mr. BALL. Now, I show you Commission Exhibit No. 150--it is a shirt-have you seen that before?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, maybe I have. Now, that looks kind of like the dark shirt that he had on.
Mr. BALL. Now, when Oswald came in, he was in a shirt--does this shirt look anything like the shirt he had on?
Mrs. ROBERTS. It was a dark shirt he had on-I think it was a dark one, but whether it was long sleeve or short sleeve or what--I don't know.
Mr. BALL. Does the color of this shirt which I show you here, Commission Exhibit No. 150, look anything like the shirt he had on?
Mrs. ROBERTS. I'm sorry, I just don't know.
Mr. BALL.. You are not able to testify as to that--to tell us that?
Mrs. ROBERTS. No.
Mr. BALL. Can you tell me what time it was approximately that Oswald came in?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Now, it must have been around 1 o'clock, or maybe a little after, because it was after President Kennedy had been shot-what time I wouldn't want to say because
Mr. BALL.. How long did he stay in the room ?
Mr. ROBERTS. Oh, maybe not over 3 or 4 minutes-just long enough, I guess, to go in there and get a jacket and put it on and he went out zipping it.
Mr. BALL. You recall he went out zipping it-was he running or walking?
Mrs. ROBERTS. He was walking fast-he was making tracks pretty fast.
Mr. BALL. Did he say anything to you as he went out ?
Mrs. ROBERTS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you say anything to him ?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Probably wouldn't have gotten no answer.
Mr. BALL. What is the only thing you said to him from the time he came in the house until he left?
Mrs. ROBERTS. "You sure are in a hurry."
Mr. BELIN. Is that all?
Mrs. ROBERTS. That was all.
Mr. BALL. That's all you said to him ?
Mrs. ROBERTS. That's all I said to him.
Mr. BALL. Did he say anything to you ?
Mrs. ROBERTS. No.
Mr. BALL. Nothing.
Mrs. ROBERTS. He didn't say nothing-he wouldn't say nothing-period.

He walked in kind of fast like, didn't look at her or say anything. Roberts says to Oswald "you sure are in a hurry."

Oswald says nothing back.

He goes in his room.

3 or 4 minutes later he leaves his room. As he does, he doesn't look at or say anything to Roberts and walks quickly out the door.

Yup, a tall tale there. Full of embellishment. And Roberts said she couldn't remember almost every detail Ball was quizzing her about regards Oswald. She could have added all kind of gossipy details if she wanted to. But she was instead very sparse, totally non-embellishing in her answers as she honestly answered them.

This is one reason I believe her police car parking and quick "Tit Tit" honking story just in front of her residence yard while Oswald was in his room.

This thought just occurred to me:

Earlene Roberts testified that Dallas police officers occasionally came to her residence. She would even talk to them as they sat in their patrol car. She even thought she knew the car number of one of the cars.

They'd ask typical "anything unusual" questions. Made sense as she would see the comings and goings of the many residents of her rooming house. Typically transient people that stay in pretty low income places like hers.

Now, the afternoon of 11,22,1963, when a marked Dallas Police car came up to and stopped in front of her residence yard and honked twice ( tit tit ), you might think that because of the Earth shaking, city stopping news of JFK's shooting Ms. Roberts might have been a little more motivated to go out and meet these two officers in their stopped car.

To ask them about this JFK shooting event.

If anybody would know more about the shooting it would be the police.

However, if she had done so, it would have been several minutes of talking with them They would have had to stay parked there a least longer than a minute or two.

And they pulled up before Oswald had left his room.

Could you imagine Lee Oswald bustling out his room, and then out the front door of the main house and seeing this police car sitting right in front of him with Ms. Robert's talking to the officers through their open door window?

Obviously, he would have turned and made a beeline back in.

Easily could have happened. and it would have totally changed the time line for Oswald's alleged walk where he was confronted by Officer Tippit.

Just a "what if" contemplation.

 

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by Joe Bauer

[Steve Thomas]

22 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Now, the afternoon of 11,22,1963, when a marked Dallas Police car came up to and stopped in front of her residence yard and honked twice ( tit tit ), you might think that because of the Earth shaking, city stopping news of JFK's shooting Ms. Roberts might have been a little more motivated to go out and meet these two officers in their stopped car.

Joe,

The corner of Zangs Blvd. and N.Beckley had a stoplight.

Have you ever pulled up behind someone and the light turned green and they didn't start up right away and pull through the intersection and you tapped your horn a couple of times to let them know that the light had turned green and they could move on out?

I'm not so sure that isn't what was going on at Zangs and Beckley.
 

If a patrol car had been cruising Oak Cliff, it’s logical to assume it would have been one of the patrol cars assigned to the Southwest Area Substation. Joseph McBride has traced the activities of several of these officers.

Some of these names will be familiar to you: M.N. McDonald, T.R. Gregory, Billy Anglin, William Mentzel, J.D. Tippit, Calvin Owens, Roy Walker, etc.

 

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf

page 126 (p. 10 of the pdf file).

It looks like patrolmen who were assigned badge numbers in the 70’s and 80’s and low 90’s were assigned to the Southwest Area Subdivision. (M.N. McDonald, Ronald Nelson, J.D. Tippit, Henry Horn, etc.) I do not know how many of these patrol cars were one-man cars, or if any were two-man cars.

 

From the Dispatch Tapes:

 

At 12:30 Officer 91 radioed in that they were “clear”.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/

 

91 (Ptm. W.D. Mentzel and Ptm. J.W. Courson)

91 clear.

 

At 12:34 Patrolman Henry Horn #76 also radioed in that he was “clear”.

 

76 (Ptm. H.H. Horn)

76 clear.

 

At 12:38 Sgt. H.F. Davis #80, radioed in that he was “clear”

 

80 (Sgt. H.F. Davis)

80 clear.

 

At 12:38 Patrolman Ronald C. Nelson #87 radioed in that he was “clear

 

87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson)

87 clear.

At 12:41, after telling all units to proceed to Elm and Houston, Patrolman Walter E. Smith, #77 radioed in and asked Dispatch if he should go in.

 

77 (Ptm. W.E. Smith)	77.
	Dispatcher	10-4, 77.
	77	Do you want me to go?

 

Dispatch did not answer him.

 

#76, Patrolman Henry Horn, was told to go to Elm and Houston

 

Dispatcher

76, Code 3, Elm and Houston.

 

At 12:41, Patrolman J.L Angell reported that he was at Corinth and Eigth.

 

81 (Ptm. J.L. Angell)

Corinth and Eighth.

 

Eigth Street in Dallas in very close to Neely, but Corinth and 8^th St is over in the south part of Dallas.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/E+8th+St+%26+Corinth+St+Rd,+Dallas,+TX+75203/@32.749104,-96.8012244,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x864e99ae3c445b19:0x24d2db677d31fda9!8m2!3d32.7490995!4d-96.7990357

 

Patrolman, W.P. Parker radioed in that he was clear on East Jefferson, but he was not assigned to the Southwest subdivision. William P. Parker was assigned to the Second Platoon in the Northeast Division

see p. 125 (page 8 of Batchelor’s Exhibit 5002)

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf

 

56 (Ptm. W.P. Parker)	56 clear for 5.
	Dispatcher	56, your location.
	56	East Jefferson.

 

At 12:45, J.D. Tippit and Patrolman Ronald C. Nelson are ordered to move into the Central Oak Cliff area.

 

Dispatcher

87, 78, move into central Oak Cliff area.

 

Tippit and Nelson reported their locations:

 

78 (Ptm. J.D. Tippit)	I'm about Kiest and Bonnie View.
87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson)	87's going north on Marsalis at R.L. Thornton.

 

At 12:45, Patrolmen Walter Smith, #77, J. L. Angell, #81, and Billy Anglin, #79 were all reporting in that they were on Corinth. There must have been some kind of disturbance in the 1400 block.

 

77 (Ptm. W.E. Smith)	77.
	77/79 (79 is Ptm. B.N. Arglin)	77/79, 1400 block Corinth.

 

 

81	We're going north on Industrial from Corinth.
	Dispatcher	10-4.

 

At 12:47, Billy Angell, #81 reported that he was “out”

 

81 (Ptm. J.L. Angell)	81. (siren)
	Dispatcher	81.
	81	Out.

 

At 12:51, Billy Anglin, #79 reported that he was at the Triple underpass

 

79 (Ptm. B.N. Arglin)	79.
	Dispatcher	79.
	79	Be out at the Triple Underpass.

 

At 12:52, Ronald Nelson, #87 radioed in and said he was “out down here”, wherever “here” was.

 

87	87 out down here.

 

At 12:54. J.D. Tippit was told to remain at large.

 

Dispatcher	78.
	78 (Ptm. J.D. Tippit)	78.
	Dispatcher	You are in the Oak Cliff area, are you not?
	78	Lancaster and Eighth.
	Dispatcher	You will be at large for any emergency that comes in.
	78	10-4.

 

I don’t see any communications between Dispatch and the Southwest Division patrolmen between then and 1:00 PM, in time for Earlene Roberts to see Lee Harvey Oswald.

Steve Thomas

[Tony Krome]

2 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

The corner of Zangs Blvd. and N.Beckley had a stoplight.

Have you ever pulled up behind someone and the light turned green and they didn't start up right away and pull through the intersection and you tapped your horn a couple of times to let them know that the light had turned green and they could move on out?

I'm not so sure that isn't what was going on at Zangs and Beckley.

That scenario, if just a co-incidence, would have been a great news story that weekend;

"Cops toot horn outside Oswald residence as he fetched his pistol"

[Pamela Brown]

On 7/18/2021 at 8:15 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Once again, I see Marina Oswald associated, though peripherally, with the aerospace industry.

Steve Thomas

 

Interesting.  My hypothesis puts the moon race at the heart of what happened to JFK...