The Framing of Lee Harvey Oswald --- Part III

[John Butler]

22 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

There is, of course, no such thing as "The Oswald Project," and all of the anomalies you list have been debated to death on this and other forums.

JC,

Show me the proof to back up this statement.  And, don't send me off to another site or person.  You make these broad statements.  Back this one up.

22 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

There's simply nothing more to talk about, which is clear from the fact that "Harvey and Lee" is dismissed by the vast majority of serious JFK assassination researchers.

Name this vast majority.  Can you get past a half dozen or so.  Let's me generous.  Maybe a dozen.  Name some.

[Jonathan Cohen]

33 minutes ago, John Butler said:

JC,

Show me the proof to back up this statement.  And, don't send me off to another site or person.  You make these broad statements.  Back this one up.

You needn't look any farther than right here on this forum, where Jeremy Bojczuk astutely points out:

Wilcott's notion of an 'Oswald project' specifically contradicted the 'Harvey and Lee' theory in several important respects:

• Wilcott's Oswald was one person, not two. Wilcott's Oswald did not have a doppelganger, and Wilcott's Oswald's mother did not have a doppelganger. 
• Wilcott's Oswald was an English-speaking American, born and brought up in the USA, not a native Russian-speaking eastern European refugee.
• Wilcott claimed that Oswald was recruited by the CIA while in the Marines, not several years earlier while still a child.

Those are the three central elements of the 'Harvey and Lee' theory, and they are all contradicted by James Wilcott.

33 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Name this vast majority.  Can you get past a half dozen or so.  Let's me generous.  Maybe a dozen.  Name some.

With pleasure! Marina Oswald, Priscilla McMillan, Jeremy Bojczuk, Mark Stevens, David Lifton, Robert Charles-Dunne, Tracy Parnell, Pat Speer, Barry Ernest, Bernie Laverick, Josiah Thompson, Gus Russo, Greg Parker, Bart Kamp, Jefferson Morley, Gary Mack, John Newman, Tom Purvis, Mick Purdy, Jon Tidd, Paul Trejo, Thomas Graves, Duncan MacRae, Steve Roe, Vince Palamara, Alex Wilson, Dale Myers, Fred Litwin, David Von Pein, Bill Brown, Walt Brown, Lance Payette, John Mytton and Steve Barber, for starters...

[James DiEugenio]

Jonathan, with all due respect to you, on that list of researchers its really unfair to include the lat PJM, Tracy Parnell, Gus Russo, Gary Mack, Tom Purvis, Paul Trejo, Tom Graves, Duncan McRae, Steve Roe, Daly Myers, OMG, Fred Litwin, OMG Von Pein, Lance Payette, John Mytton (not a real name) and Steve Barber.

The last way I would describe that list in as serious researchers.  To me  most of them are jokesters.

[Jonathan Cohen]

5 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

The last way I would describe that list in as serious researchers.  To me  most of them are jokesters.

Then that’s your opinion. But I think you’re only saying that because they disagree with you on numerous aspects of the assassination. That hardly makes them “jokesters.”

[John Butler]

5 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

You needn't look any farther than right here on this forum, where Jeremy Bojczuk astutely points out:

Wilcott's notion of an 'Oswald project' specifically contradicted the 'Harvey and Lee' theory in several important respects:

• Wilcott's Oswald was one person, not two. Wilcott's Oswald did not have a doppelganger, and Wilcott's Oswald's mother did not have a doppelganger. 
• Wilcott's Oswald was an English-speaking American, born and brought up in the USA, not a native Russian-speaking eastern European refugee.
• Wilcott claimed that Oswald was recruited by the CIA while in the Marines, not several years earlier while still a child.

Those are the three central elements of the 'Harvey and Lee' theory, and they are all contradicted by James Wilcott.

With pleasure! Marina Oswald, Priscilla McMillan, Jeremy Bojczuk, Mark Stevens, David Lifton, Robert Charles-Dunne, Tracy Parnell, Pat Speer, Barry Ernest, Bernie Laverick, Josiah Thompson, Gus Russo, Greg Parker, Bart Kamp, Jefferson Morley, Gary Mack, John Newman, Tom Purvis, Mick Purdy, Jon Tidd, Paul Trejo, Thomas Graves, Duncan MacRae, Steve Roe, Vince Palamara, Alex Wilson, Dale Myers, Fred Litwin, David Von Pein, Bill Brown, Walt Brown, Lance Payette, John Mytton and Steve Barber, for starters...

JC,

Thanks for your reply.  Appreciated.  You do know that intelligence agencies such as the CIA have what is know as "chinese walls".  Things are compartmentalized so that missions, or information is not betrayed by someone who has knowledge they shouldn't.  Wilcott had no need to know if there were two or more Oswalds.  He was simply authorized to pay out to an Oswald.  More than likely the one in Japan at Atsugi.  OBTW, his records were kept by the 501st  Military Intelligence Bde, in Korea.  Wonder why?  

Harvey Oswald's native language was not English.  One way you can tell?  Oswald misused the articles in speech.  Foriegners speaking English usually do that.  Well, I have to add mis-educated young people occasionally do the same.

Walcott in claiming that Oswald was recruited as a Marine was just passing on what he knew.  What he knew was related to CIA gossip and not actual knowledge except for his area of endeavor.

The list of people you named are all anti-Harvey and Lee folk?  Which of the named above would you consider to be "lone nutters".  I apologize for the term.  I am using to describe folk who believe Oswald was the single shooter of President Kennedy in the manner the WC concludes.

Eh, eh, eh.  As far as Marina goes, she seems to be at times with one Oswald while another is said to be elsewhere.  Remember, she said she had two husbands.  I don't believe she was referring to Oswald's pyschological quirks.  

  

   

Edited December 22, 2021 by John Butler

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

I'm sure Jonathan's list is just a small sample of those with an active interest in the JFK assassination who have publicly dismissed the laughable double-doppelganger theory. You could probably add everyone else at the ROKC forum, for example.

It's worth noting that, after more than two decades of effort, only a tiny proportion of JFK assassination researchers have been persuaded that there was a long-term project involving two Oswalds and two Marguerites (or, in John Butler's case, three or four of each). I've quoted Bernie Laverick's comment before, but it's a good one, so here it is again:

Quote

You do know that more people believe that the Queen of England is a lizard than believe in H&L? In fact, I'd go further, more people would probably rather accept that she was one of the shooters than accept this relentless trolling disguised as a risible theory.

It's also worth noting that Jonathan's list includes people from across the spectrum of opinion:

• Oswald-did-it-all-by-himself believers,
• plausibly-small-conspiracy believers, and
• ridiculously-elaborate-conspiracy believers (even David Lifton, who apparently once claimed that there were fake trees on the grassy knoll, finds the 'Harvey and Lee' concept too far-fetched for his taste).

The broadness of that spectrum tells us that the double-doppelganger notion really is an outlier. No matter what your opinion is of the JFK assassination, you don't need to take the 'Harvey and Lee' nonsense seriously.

John Armstrong may have done some worthwhile and praiseworthy research, bringing many previously unknown documents to light, but his double-doppelganger fantasy has done more harm than good. It is liable to make rational critics of the lone-nut theory look like crackpots, a distortion of reality that helps only the lone-nut brigade.

The framing of Oswald, which is after all the topic of this thread, did not depend on any sort of decade-long double-doppelganger project. I hope this thread won't descend into yet another pointless discussion of this long-debunked notion. If anyone does want to do that, they first need to go to another thread and deal with the unanswered question here:

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26056-evidence-for-harvey-and-lee-please-debate-the-specifics-right-here-dont-just-claim-someone-else-has-debunked-it/?do=findComment&comment=444227

It's a straightforward question about a basic element of the theory. None of the few remaining 'Harvey and Lee' believers seem able to answer it, which is unsurprising, since it exposes the essential incoherence of Armstrong's long-term 'Oswald project'.

[John Butler]

JB,

I'm sure you will think this had nothing to do with the Oswald Project.  From the Harvey and Lee site:

"Frank Wisner was a Wall Street lawyer and during WW II worked for the Office of Strategic Services (predecessor of the CIA). After World War II ended thousands of Eastern European refugees were brought to the United States under his supervision. National Security Council (NSC) records show that Wisner, the CIA's director of clandestine operations, oversaw the re-location of thousands of anti-Communist exiles to the United States as a means of rewarding them for conducting secret operations against the Soviets. Wisner became the CIA and State Department’s expert on European war refugees, and secretly subsidized the refugee relief organizations that brought these Eastern Bloc refugees to the United States throughout the 1940s and early 1950s.

Wisner and his group recognized they could use these Eastern European immigrant's knowledge, customs, and familiarity with their respective homelands. Wisner asked the National Security Council (NSC) to sanction the “systematic” use of such refugees, and they (the NSC) agreed. The NSC soon issued a top-secret intelligence directive (NSCID No. 14), which even today remains "classified," that authorized both the FBI and the CIA to find and jointly exploit the knowledge, experience, and talents of well over 200,000 Eastern European refugees resettled in the USA. The CIA soon contacted the Displaced Person's Commission (DPC), which worked closely with the leaders of refugee organizations in the USA. DPC chairman Ugo Carusi sent a memorandum to all refugee organizations in the USA that read: “We would like to advise that the U.S. Commission [DPC] has a formal agreement with the CIA to cooperate in every possible way to facilitate their programs. It is, therefore, altogether desirable that local representatives of the voluntary agencies and State Commissions and Committees make available to fully identified CIA agents the addresses of displaced persons.”

I would say Frank Wisner was a henchman of Allen Dulles who first begin to save immigrant refugees early in WW2 in Switzerland

And, once you read this information you may begin to wonder how these refugees, many of whom were children, were to be used by Frank and Co.  Since, Allen and Frank were spies, do you think they may have intended to use these refugee children as spies in the future.  Is it conceivable?  

Edited December 22, 2021 by John Butler

[W. Tracy Parnell]

16 hours ago, John Butler said:

Name this vast majority. 

I should mention that we did an informal poll on H&L right here at EF. This was probably back in 2017 or 2018. I don't remember the numbers but a majority of EF members (which undoubtedly lean toward conspiracy) disbelieved the theory.

One interesting thing about H&L is, I was one of the people in the 1990s (there were others of course) who got the ball rolling regrading criticism of the theory. I wrote a couple of articles that appeared in the Kennedy Assassination Chronicles and ran my website.  But since that time the conspiracy people have really taken over and added to the body of work debunking the theory (much to their credit) and moved far beyond my contributions. It should be mentioned that even David Josephs doesn't believe all aspects of the theory.

Edited December 22, 2021 by W. Tracy Parnell

[Jim Hargrove]

So, a thread that shows, once again, what John Armstrong first proved decades ago—the the Magic Money Order® was never cashed and was clearly forged—has now devolved into yet another attempt at bashing Harvey and Lee. 

Joseph McBride, author of Into the Nightmare and may other books, has said that “John Armstrong has essentially solved this case,” or words to that effect.  David Mantik, David Josephs, and Robert Groden, among many others, have held Harvey and Lee in the highest regard.  If memory serves, Mr. Mantik once said it was his favorite book on the subject.

Two YouTube movies by “MrChrillemannen,”presenting John Armstrong interviews with accompanying graphics, have been viewed nearly 700,000 times!

Captain Westbrook, officer Tippit and Oswald's double

and

Who impersonated Lee Harvey Oswald?

John’s work has spawned, not counting “The Other Oswald,” which is somewhat different, at least three different books in recent years.

The JFK Assassination and the Uncensored Story of the Two Oswalds

From an Amazon review: “I'd read a good chunk of Armstrong's Harvey and Lee, but Shannan provided clarity for me on the matter of Marguerite Oswald in particular and the whole thesis in general. So much easier to read this digest than the master's unedited tome.”

DOPPELGANGER: The Legend of Lee Harvey Oswald

Dr. Schwimmer’s best-seller is already in it’s fifth edition.

From the publisher’s blurb: “More than 300 sources, including many sworn testimonies & affidavits, were consulted, as well as John Armstrong’s massive research project HARVEY AND LEE. One fact led to another, until a coherent picture began to emerge from the immense pile of puzzle pieces…. That picture includes the background of Harvey as a juvenile immigrant fluent in Russian, and the creation of the second ‘Lee Harvey Oswald’ and the second ‘Marguerite Oswald.’ The picture continues with the recruitment of both Lee Oswald and Harvey Oswald by the ONI and the CIA, followed by Harvey’s assumption of Lee’s identity, his ‘defection’ to Russia, and Lee’s involvement with the Cuban revolution and the CIA..…”

Mistaken Identity

From the publisher’s blurb:  "New forensic and evidentiary material not published, proves that two individuals known as "Lee Harvey Oswald" enlisted in the U.S. Marines in 1956 using the same birth certificate. Recent genealogical research identifies them as second cousins through intermarriage of second-generation French families in New Orleans. It created a nightmare of identity for the FBI."

When people here tell you "Harvey and Lee" has all been debunked and that nobody believes it, don't believe them.

[John Butler]

On 12/22/2021 at 5:54 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

It's worth noting that, after more than two decades of effort, only a tiny proportion of JFK assassination researchers have been persuaded that there was a long-term project involving two Oswalds and two Marguerites (or, in John Butler's case, three or four of each). I've quoted Bernie Laverick's comment before, but it's a good one, so here it is again:

JB,

Look at this photo taken from a film clip:

Notice the date.  It is 1958.  This is a photo from Robert Oswald and was taken at a ranch or farm of his in-laws.  The problem with the date is Lee Oswald is in Atsugi, Japan for 1958.  There is some time when he is on maneuvers in the Philippines and South China Sea area.  Definitely not in Texas.  If Robert is correct this photo can only be explained by two Oswalds.

The complete photo with Robert's caption:

The date says it is February 1958.  Later it was realized that the date given here was "wrong" and was changed to Sept. 1959.  This photo is definitely not September in Texas.  Oswald has on a shirt, sweater, and jacket.  Texas in September can have over 100 degree temperatures.  Definitely not a hot weather photo.

There's a big difference between February 1958 and September 1959.  One date gives two Oswald and the second gives one.  The second is a cover up change by Robert.  The temp difference between Sep. and Feb. is real as experienced by this fellow in 1969 in Texas.  OBTW, what does this make Robert?  A knowing conspirator? 

If one wants to change the date on this a better 1958 date would be the Nov./Dec. period when Lee Oswald returned from Japan in 1958.  The weather would be about the same as Feb. 1958.  But, that is not what is being said.

I have speculated from time to time of a 3rd Oswald but have no real proof and only vague connections that can be explained one way or another.  The above photo is just one of hundreds of pieces of evidence that screams two Oswalds.  As for a third, it is iffy. 

PS

I have noticed that in a large number of cases people do not notice details in photos.  Details such as the temperature difference in Texas between Sep. and Feb.  I believe that the notion that a photo shows reality and what can be seen in a photo is reality blinds people to what they are actually seeing.

Another OBTW, the wife says this environment is a bit strange for squirrel hunting.  Where's the trees?  I guess one could hunt ground squirrels there.  But, what would you do with them other than shoot them.  Eat them?  How many would that be for a meal?  Most ground squirrels are less than rat sized.  Ground squirrel on a stick, anybody?  Or, as Tim would say "how do you like your ground squirrel?"   

 

Edited December 23, 2021 by John Butler

[Jonathan Cohen]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

There's a big difference between February 1958 and September 1959.  One date gives two Oswald and the second gives one.  The second is a cover up change by Robert.  The temp difference between Sep. and Feb. is real as experienced by this fellow in 1969 in Texas.  OBTW, what does this make Robert?  A knowing conspirator?

It makes Robert ... someone who made a simple, honest mistake? Why is it that "Harvey & Lee" adherents can't possibly bring themselves to accept that there are perfectly innocent explanations for these inconsistencies? Furthermore, can you explain why on God's green earth the evil "Oswald Project" overlords allow Robert Oswald, who, according to you, was "in" on the plot, to not only write a tell-all book but include "obvious" mistakes in it that give away the whole game? Were they just waiting for Internet sleuths like yourself to uncover the whole charade three decades later?

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

It makes Robert ... someone who made a simple, honest mistake? Why is it that "Harvey & Lee" adherents can't possibly bring themselves to accept that there are perfectly innocent explanations for these inconsistencies?

JC,

Are you and Jeremy a tag team?

This is not a simple and honest mistake.  There are no innocent explanations for this photo's dating.  When changed again it was not to cold weather in late 1958 or early 1959 but to later on in Sep. 1959.  The man has on a t-shirt, shirt, sweater, and jacket.  This photo was taken outside in colder weather and not in Sep.

1 hour ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Furthermore, can you explain why on God's green earth the evil "Oswald Project" overlords allow Robert Oswald, who, according to you, was "in" on the plot, to not only write a tell-all book but include "obvious" mistakes in it that give away the whole game? Were they just waiting for Internet sleuths like yourself to uncover the whole charade three decades later?

I have already explained this.  Maybe not to your satisfaction.  People make mistakes and then try to cover up those mistakes when someone exposes them.  The whole JFKA is filled with obvious mistakes both in the media and witness statements.  Why people have not seen those mistakes in over 50+ years is a mystery.  It is simply not wanting to admit they missed this simple but obvious feature.  So, therefore it is to be ignored because it is of no relevance if "I" missed it.  It seems like those who claim to have reviewed the entire witness list's statements have done so in desultory fashion focusing in on what they want to see.

"the evil "Oswald Project" overlords" missed a lot of things in their cover up.  I don't have time nor space to comment further.  Just go back and look at a 5 year record of what I have said.  

Edited December 23, 2021 by John Butler

[W. Tracy Parnell]

7 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

It makes Robert ... someone who made a simple, honest mistake? Why is it that "Harvey & Lee" adherents can't possibly bring themselves to accept that there are perfectly innocent explanations for these inconsistencies?

There are other explanations for sure. Here is mine for John Butler:

The Hunter Photo ~ W. Tracy Parnell (wtracyparnell.blogspot.com)

[Greg Doudna]

1 hour ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

There are other explanations for sure. Here is mine for John Butler:

The Hunter Photo ~ W. Tracy Parnell (wtracyparnell.blogspot.com)

John, I think Tracy has this right: February 1957 being the correct date instead of mistaken "February, 1958" in Robert's book one year off (mistake). WR, Appendix 13, p. 682: "On February 27 [1957], he went on leave for 2 weeks, during which he may have visited his mother in Forth Worth." If he travelled from California to Fort Worth on Feb 27 he would then go hunting with his brother the next day, Feb 28. The temperature Feb 28, 1957 in Dallas (no data available for Fort Worth) was 45 degrees at 8 AM rising to a high of 65 degrees at 4 PM, which is temperature consistent with a need to wear the jacket Lee wears in the photo (https://www.wunderground.com/history/daily/us/tx/dallas/KDAL/date/1957-2-28). Tracy explains the different look of the haircut as due to the Marines. That this was Lee has pretty good testimony from his brother saying it was. And notice in the photo the background sky is fully overcast but not raining? From Dallas data it did not rain on Feb 28, 1957, and the sky had full cloud cover in the morning and partly cloudy in the afternoon that day (from same link above). The overcast sky in the photo agrees with the photo having been taken in the morning, perfect non-raining cool crisp day to go out.  

Edited December 24, 2021 by Greg Doudna

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

There are other explanations for sure. Here is mine for John Butler:

The Hunter Photo ~ W. Tracy Parnell (wtracyparnell.blogspot.com)

Sure.  He made two mistakes on dates if you are right.  There is a possibility for Feb. 1957 for Lee.  Ther is also a possibility for Harvey in early 1957.  He left Ca. for training in Fla. in Mar. 1957.  This fits Vada's 4 or 5 month period.  I accept the 1958 date for Harvey.  He was in New Orleans at the time and could have gone over to Texas for a hunting trip.  Lee was in Japan.

  But, Robert's real problem with veracity is he changed his mistake from Feb. 1958 to Sep. 1959.  

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by John Butler