How did Fritz know when Ruby was in position to kill Oswald?

[John Butler]

Jim,

I hate to think I'm this important to shadow ban.  But, every time I look for something on the net nowadays I can't find it.  Sorry.

If still interested a couple of buck on Amazon Prime and you can check out the video:

In my opinion this is well worth watching.  You get a decades long look at CIA and Mafia cooperation.  The only caveat may be that Holt is really not a honest guy, but a born criminal and deceiver.

Edited April 21, 2022 by John Butler

[Ron Bulman]

6 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Here you go guys

Morales there in the white with hat... Westbrook far right

 

Thanks David.

[Paul Brancato]

6 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Here you go guys

Morales there in the white with hat... Westbrook far right

 

Thanks David (and Ron). This pic strongly suggests that Westbrook was CIA. 
we’ve gotten somewhat waylaid now on Chauncey Holt, but in a way I’m thankful because it gave me a chance to read this interview. For someone operating on a need to know basis he sure knows a ton, and that’s what makes in not believable. If he had given that interview on Nov 22 or anytime soon thereafter I would take it more seriously. He checks all the right boxes, and thus demonstrates IMO that he is fabricating large amounts of it. 

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Jim Hargrove writes:

Quote

And you have no evidence whatsoever that Mr. Applin looked even remotely like LHO.

But he did resemble Oswald. The one and only George Jefferson Applin was white, male and 21 years old. The one and only Lee Harvey Oswald was white, male and 24 years old. The incident Bernard Haire saw - one man being led out of the building and into a police car - would have taken just a few seconds. Haire could easily have assumed later that the man he saw had been Oswald, given that Haire did not learn until nearly 25 years after the event that Oswald had been taken out of the front of the building.

Everything Haire said is consistent with what happened to Applin. Here, for the record, is Jim Marrs' account of what Haire saw:

Quote

Haire went into the alley, which he said was also filled with police cars. Walking toward the theater, Haire was opposite the rear door when police brought a young white man out. He said the man was dressed in a pullover shirt and slacks and appeared to be flushed as if having been in a struggle. Although Haire was unable to see if the man was handcuffed, he was certainly under the impression that the man was under arrest. Haire watched the police put the man in a police car and drive off.

For nearly twenty-five years, Haire believed he had witnessed the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald. He was shocked to discover that Oswald had been handcuffed and brought out the front door of the theater.

(Crossfire, Pocket Books edition, 1993, p.354)

All the evidence we have agrees that only one person was escorted by the police from the front of the building, and that only one person was escorted by the police from the rear of the building. No witnesses mention more than one person being escorted from the front, or more than one person being escorted from the rear.

We can be certain that the one person escorted by police officers from the front of the building was the one and only Lee Harvey Oswald. We can be certain that Applin too was escorted by police officers out of the building and into a police car.

If Applin did not leave by the front door, he must have been the one person who left by the rear door.

Applin's departure was a fleeting event that could easily have been misinterpreted by witnesses as the removal of an arrested suspect.

As I explained earlier, there are plenty of good reasons to suppose that George Applin was escorted by police officers out of the rear of the building and into a police car parked in the alley, and then driven away in that police car so that he could give a signed statement. If, as the evidence suggests, this sequence of events happened to only one person, that person must have been George Applin.

Is there a simpler explanation than that?

Quote

The link Mr. B. provided at the top of this page wasn’t working when I tried it

It worked when I tried it yesterday, and again today. The photo shows a white [check!] man [check!] of about the right age [check!], wearing a garment matching Haire's description of "a pullover shirt" [check!], accompanied by a policeman [check!]:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2051-time-to-kill-another-myth-there-was-no-second-oswald-arrested-at-the-theater#30280

Of course, there's no guarantee that the man in the photo is actually GEORGE Jefferson Applin. It could be his doppelganger with a 13" head, George JEFFERSON Applin. But inventing doppelgangers complicates matters unnecessarily. The simplest explanation is usually the best explanation.

[Jim Hargrove]

Mr. B. finds it hard to believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was impersonated at the Texas Theater.  But there are at least three different times that the United States government has admitted the possibility (and once the certainty) of an Oswald impersonator.

Back in 1960, J. Edgar Hoover wrote, “there is a possibility that an imposter is using Oswald’s birth certificate.

Less than a year later, the State Department’s Edward J. Hickey wrote, “it has been stated that there in an imposter using Oswald’s identification data….”

" 

At 10 AM on the morning following the Kennedy assassination, President Lyndon Johnson and FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover discussed the state of the case over the telephone. Hoover stated, in unequivocal terms, that LHO had been impersonated in Mexico City.

"No, that’s one angle that’s very confusing, for this reason—we have up here the tape and the photograph of the man who was at the Soviet embassy, using Oswald’s name. That picture and the tape do not correspond to this man’s voice, nor to his appearance. In other words, it appears that there is a second person who was at the Soviet embassy down there."  [Listen to the conversation here.] 

The HSCA threatened Marita Lorenz with prison and forced a retraction after she testified under oath that she worked with LHO in Florida, and saw Alex Rorke take pictures of him, at the same time another LHO was in the Soviet Union.

Also while one LHO was in Russia, there are credible reports that another LHO was active in New York City at the same time.

During this same period, while one LHO was in Russia, another was actually arrested in New Orleans, along with Celso Henandez.  See a Garrison report here.

The Bolton Ford incident, and others involving Oswald in the U.S. at the same time he was in Russia, occurred during this same time frame.

Later, weeks before the assassination, Texas Employment Commission employee Laura Kittrell interviewed two different young men, both of whom claimed to be LHO.  She told the HSCA’s Gaeton Fonzi that the two young men “were much alike in size, shape and outline, [but] generally, there was a marked difference between them in bearing and manner.” 

And, as all researchers know, LHO was impersonated time and time again in and around Dallas during the weeks leading up to the assassination.  These impersonations were depicted in the famous 1973 motion picture entitled “Executive Action,” which starred Burt Lancaster, Robert Ryan, and Will Geer.

Isn’t it amazing that America’s most infamous “Lone Nut” was impersonated time and time again?  The Texas Theater was just one of dozens of other examples.  Doesn’t this seem odd?  Do you suppose there could be a simpler explanation?  I'll bet it doesn't occur to Mr. B!

 

[John Butler]

5 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

But he did resemble Oswald. The one and only George Jefferson Applin was white, male and 21 years old. The one and only Lee Harvey Oswald was white, male and 24 years old.

Jeremy, 

I see you are persisting in this useless character description resemblance between Oswald and Applin.  I take that you believe there was someone taken from the rear of the Texas Theatre, but you do not believe it was Oswald.

Well, your character resemblance is worthy in that you have narrowed it down by eliminating women, old people, middle aged people, people of African and Asian descent.  That leaves tens of thousands of young white males in Dallas and the surrounding countryside to be considered.  It is time to give up this very poor resemblance description between Oswald and Applin.  Do the two look alike in any characters other than young white males.

Give it up.

[John Butler]

5 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

We can be certain that the one person escorted by police officers from the front of the building was the one and only Lee Harvey Oswald. We can be certain that Applin too was escorted by police officers out of the building and into a police car.

Can you provide proof for this statement that Applin was escorted from the theater?  And, what was the motive for the police to escort Applin from the theater?  

[John Butler]

5 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

The incident Bernard Haire saw - one man being led out of the building and into a police car - would have taken just a few seconds. Haire could easily have assumed later that the man he saw had been Oswald, given that Haire did not learn until nearly 25 years after the event that Oswald had been taken out of the front of the building.

Given that Haire saw one man being led out the back of the Texas Theatre for "just a few seconds" how can you be sure that it was Applin.  Was Applin even at the theater?  Can you prove he was there?

We have to take a witness' statement as true unless it can be confounded by other evidence.  You have not provided other evidence of any quality to refute what Haire has said.

You have completely ignored the solid evidence provided by Jim Hargrove and persisted in your notion that Applin and Oswald were lookalikes.  Time to give it up.  

Edited April 22, 2022 by John Butler

[John Butler]

5 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

It worked when I tried it yesterday, and again today. The photo shows a white [check!] man [check!] of about the right age [check!], wearing a garment matching Haire's description of "a pullover shirt" [check!], accompanied by a policeman [check!]:

Ahhhh!  The non-existent pull over shirt solves the identification problem.  In Applin's photo he doesn't look like he has a pull over shirt, but a pull over sweater which is more in tune with the weather in late November in Dallas.

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by John Butler

[John Butler]

5 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Everything Haire said is consistent with what happened to Applin. Here, for the record, is Jim Marrs' account of what Haire saw:

Quote

Haire went into the alley, which he said was also filled with police cars. Walking toward the theater, Haire was opposite the rear door when police brought a young white man out. He said the man was dressed in a pullover shirt and slacks and appeared to be flushed as if having been in a struggle. Although Haire was unable to see if the man was handcuffed, he was certainly under the impression that the man was under arrest. Haire watched the police put the man in a police car and drive off.

For nearly twenty-five years, Haire believed he had witnessed the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald. He was shocked to discover that Oswald had been handcuffed and brought out the front door of the theater.

(Crossfire, Pocket Books edition, 1993, p.354)

That is not at all what Jim Marrs said.  His description fits another Oswald which is more than likely Lee Oswald.  He said nothing of Applin.  He did speak of Oswald and believed for 25 years that this was the Oswald taken from the theater.  He was shocked and amazed that Oswald, Harvey, was taken from the front of the theater.

Edited April 22, 2022 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

John,

Did I miss something?  I don't think there is any evidence whatsoever that the picture you keep posting is of George Applin.  What makes you think it is?  There were demonstrations in Dallas on 11/22/63 and I believe a number of young men were taken into police custody.  Are you really sure this is George Applin?  Please post the evidence for it.

[John Butler]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John,

Did I miss something?  I don't think there is any evidence whatsoever that the picture you keep posting is of George Applin.  What makes you think it is?  There were demonstrations in Dallas on 11/22/63 and I believe a number of young men were taken into police custody.  Are you really sure this is George Applin?  Please post the evidence for it.

Sorry.  I would have answered sooner, but I have been out killing my dandelions, crabgrass, chickweed, etc.

No.  You have not missed a thing.  I don't have any real evidence for the identification of George Applin.  Let me say that again, "I don't have any real evidence for the identification of George Applin".  

What I do have is Jeremy B's identification evidence for George Applin.  I took that photo from a website posted by Jeremy B. saying or suggesting this was George Applin.  After posting many times, he has not denied or refuted that this photo is not George Applin.  So, I have been using it as much as possible.

I too am concerned over the credibility of this evidence since Jeremy has only white, male, and young as identifiable characteristics for Oswald/Applin.  Go back and look at the work I did on identifying Oswald's character traits for identification and you will see a great deal of difference in detail.  I simply never said young, white, male because anyone can see that.  Those traits are so general that they are unusable for identification purposes.

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

2 hours ago, John Butler said:

No.  You have not missed a thing.  I don't have any real evidence for the identification of George Applin.  Let me say that again, "I don't have any real evidence for the identification of George Applin".  

Ah, the clarification is appreciated!!  I just want people to realize that there is no evidence presented so far that the guy in that photo is George J. Applin.  And as a general lament about this whole case, I sure wish I could trust the photo evidence more, especially from misrepresentation.  

[John Butler]

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Ah, the clarification is appreciated!!  I just want people to realize that there is no evidence presented so far that the guy in that photo is George J. Applin.  And as a general lament about this whole case, I sure wish I could trust the photo evidence more, especially from misrepresentation.  

You are correct.  Sorry for the confusion.  I just have been having too much fun nit picking.

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

John Butler writes:

Quote

I take that you believe there was someone taken from the rear of the Texas Theatre, but you do not believe it was Oswald.

Correct. And I've explained in detail the reasons for thinking that the man was George Applin. The man cannot have been Oswald, because we know that Oswald was taken out of the front of the building: numerous witnesses saw him, and there are photographs to prove it. Unless those photographs were faked, I suppose.

Here, again, is a link to my comment on page 7 in which I explained why the man escorted out of the rear entrance almost certainly was George Applin:

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27683-how-did-fritz-know-when-ruby-was-in-position-to-kill-oswald/?do=findComment&comment=458087

Quote

It is time to give up this very poor resemblance description between Oswald and Applin.  Do the two look alike in any characters other than young white males. 

The point is that they were both white men in their early twenties. That's all the resemblance that's needed to explain Bernard Haire's mistaken impression that the man he saw being escorted by police officers was the one and only Lee Harvey Oswald.

At the time Haire saw the man being led out of the building, he had not heard about the assassination. He didn't know what the commotion was all about. He didn't find out who Oswald was until afterwards.

According to Jim Marrs, Haire did not discover for nearly 25 years that Oswald had been escorted from the front of the building. Haire clearly had little interest in a newsworthy event that happened right next to his place of work.

The simplest explanation is that Haire mistook one young white man for another young white man. Can John think of a simpler explanation than that?

Quote

Can you provide proof for this statement that Applin was escorted from the theater?  And, what was the motive for the police to escort Applin from the theater?

Seriously? Click the link I've just provided.

Quote

That is not at all what Jim Marrs said.

Yes, it is. Those are the very words that appear on page 354 of my scruffy old paperback of Marrs' Crossfire.

The man Bernard Haire saw must have been George Applin. There is no other plausible explanation. You can find a summary of the Texas Theater evidence here:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25901-two-oswalds-in-the-texas-theater/?do=findComment&comment=407170