How did Fritz know when Ruby was in position to kill Oswald?

[Joe Bauer]

On 4/10/2022 at 3:21 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Ron,

I once read an account of the precautions that Will Fritz took when planning the transfer of Jack Ruby to jail after his trial was over. Fritz ran the route himself and was calling back into headquarters using pay phones.

(The bit about using pay phones really intrigued me. Did he suspect his phones were tapped?)

I haven't been able to find that account again. Has anyone else ever seen it?

Steve Thomas

Imagine the ultimate trifecta negligence security failure legacy the 1963 DPD would have been saddled with forever had Jack Ruby been whacked during their custody of him?

Beyond even the mind boggling one they had already secured with losing both JFK and Lee Harvey Oswald in their city due to multiple security failures ( JFK partially - L.H. Oswald totally.) 

I believe in most major population American cities in 1963 that if their police departments had Oswald killed while in their custody as Oswald was in Dallas, they would have fired those police department heads who were responsible for the planning and implementation of Oswald's worst case scenario failed security.

Oswald's deadly fate under the DPD security on November, 24th, 1963 was no better than if they had marched him out to the blood thirsty yelling lynch mob on Commerce Street and said..."here you go ... have at him."

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Jim Hargrove]

23 hours ago, John Butler said:

This information has always been fascinating to me.  The stats fit me is why, except it took 50 years to lose those 2 inches.  I'll make a copy of this chart.

Here again, if I am remembering correctly, I was told long ago that the height of a person was to be measured correctly because it was one of the ways to identify a body found on the battlefield. 

John,

Not sure what you mean by your second sentence above, but one of the things that strikes me about the 5’11” USMC measurement is that we are supposed to believe that after having been measured at that height Oswald goes back AFTER the Marine Corps service and voluntarily fills out many documents, including a number of employment applications, saying he is two inches shorter.  That’s just not the way young men typically behave, is it?

[Jim Hargrove]

23 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Kelley's private conversation with Oswald comes at the tail end of the interview. Counting Kelley, there were 8 people present besides Oswald. Kelley even says it was in Fritz's office. After Kelley wrapped up, Oswald was given a change of clothes and Fritz made a "number of telephone calls" to make sure the preparations were in place.

Steve,

I’d LOVE to find that account of Fritz’s precautions moving Ruby and compare them to his apparently careless preparations for Oswald’s transfer.  

2 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

I believe in most major population American cities in 1963 that if their police departments had Oswald killed while in their custody as Oswald was in Dallas, they would have fired those police department heads who were responsible for the planning and implementation of Oswald's worst case scenario failed security.

Oswald's deadly fate under the DPD security on November, 24th, 1963 was no better than if they had marched him out to the blood thirsty yelling lynch mob on Commerce Street and said..."here you go ... have at him."

 

Joe, That's a great point, and I'll bet you're right!  The behavior of the entire DPD in this whole case is beyond deplorable.  A few insiders were undoubtedly setting up the entire force to fail.  I think Westbrook was probably one of them, but I'm not sure whether Fritz came on board before or after the JFK hit.

[Steve Thomas]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Steve,

I’d LOVE to find that account of Fritz’s precautions moving Ruby and compare them to his apparently careless preparations for Oswald’s transfer. 

Jim,

I remember that it was a first person account, and that he mentioned stopping more than once to make a call on a pay phone. The calls were back to the office, but that's all I can remember.

I was working on something else at the time and didn't give it more than a cursory glance.

Steve Thomas

[Steven Kossor]

McBride's opinion on the involvement of Westbrook and Croy in the Tippitt murder would certainly be important, but I think that the video of LHO's removal from the Texas Theater in Westbrook's unmarked police car is an important piece of evidence.  It's hard to explain why Westbrook, a member of the DPD HR department, was so rapidly and deeply involved in so many aspects of the criminal investigation of LHO, at least from from 12:30 pm CST 11/22 onward.  Westbrook's presentation of evidence connecting Alek Hidell and LHO (the soon-to-disappear wallet linking the purchaser of the Carcano rifle with its alleged user in JFK's assassination) is one of the most damning revelations (included in Hosty's book Assignment: Oswald that was published very soon after Westbrook's death).  The short version:  I found the article at the top of this thread to be well worth reading.

[Jim Hargrove]

13 hours ago, Steven Kossor said:

McBride's opinion on the involvement of Westbrook and Croy in the Tippitt murder would certainly be important, but I think that the video of LHO's removal from the Texas Theater in Westbrook's unmarked police car is an important piece of evidence.  It's hard to explain why Westbrook, a member of the DPD HR department, was so rapidly and deeply involved in so many aspects of the criminal investigation of LHO, at least from from 12:30 pm CST 11/22 onward.  Westbrook's presentation of evidence connecting Alek Hidell and LHO (the soon-to-disappear wallet linking the purchaser of the Carcano rifle with its alleged user in JFK's assassination) is one of the most damning revelations (included in Hosty's book Assignment: Oswald that was published very soon after Westbrook's death).  The short version:  I found the article at the top of this thread to be well worth reading.

Thanks for the post, Mr. Kossor!

Don't recall if he said anything about Croy and Westbrook directly, but Joseph McBride has been highly supportive of John Armstrong's research for many years.  In his recent book Political Truth: The Media and the Assassination of President Kennedy, Mr. McBride listed Harvey and Lee as one of the most important books ever published about the Kennedy assassination.

Also, I couldn't agree with you more that the 10th and Patton wallet is a most damning revelation in this case. Had the American public known about this wallet in a timely manner, it would have been clear to them that LHO was being framed for the murder of J.D. Tippit.  And, armed with that knowledge, the immediate next question would have been to ask whether Oswald was also being framed for JFK's murder. The Hidell ID's, of course, pretty much answer that question in the affirmative.

If someone else doesn't do it first, I'm going to start a thread about the throw-down wallet and ask why researchers don't do more to publicize it as the most obvious evidence that LHO was framed for two murders.

[Steve Thomas]

15 hours ago, Steven Kossor said:

McBride's opinion on the involvement of Westbrook and Croy in the Tippitt murder would certainly be important, but I think that the video of LHO's removal from the Texas Theater in Westbrook's unmarked police car is an important piece of evidence.

Steve,

Just one small note...

It wasn't Westbrook's car, it was Bob Carroll's.

WC testimony of Bob Carroll

He as the driver of the car that took Oswald from the Theater back downtown.

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/carroll.htm

“Mr. BALL. What did you do then?
Mr. CARROLL. 

WC testimony of Bob Carroll

He as the driver of the car that took Oswald from the Theater back downtown.

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/carroll.htm

 

“Mr. BALL. What did you do then?
Mr. CARROLL. I left and went to the office, and when I got to the office I called the dispatcher and they told me to go to the scene and I left the office and went to the garage, which is two blocks from city hall and got a car and reported to the School Book Depository.
Mr. BALL. About what time did you get to the School Book Depository?
Mr. CARROLL. Let's see - approximately - let's see, the shooting occurred - it was 12:30, I believe, it was approximately 1 o'clock - maybe a little before,, but right around 1 o'clock, and after I got to the Depository, they started organizing search details and I was assigned to search the basement Well, I went into the basement and we determined that we needed some light in the basement, so I came back upstairs to get some lights, and when I got upstairs I heard that an officer had been shot in Oak Cliff, and no one had any information on it and the people I talked to had no information, so I got on the phone, and I called the dispatcher's office. The dispatcher stated it was Officer Tippit who was shot and he was dead, and so when I come back out of the office where I had used the phone, I requested permission to go to Oak Cliff and permission was granted and I took K. E. Lyons, and he and I left for Oak Cliff.

Mr. CARROLL. Well, after we got the handcuffs on him - it was McDonald and Jerry Hill, Ray Hawkins and myself, and I believe there was - I think it was Hutson - we started out of the theatre and we took him out through the main lobby to our car, which was parked right in front where we had left it - where Lyons and I pulled up, and we put him in our car in the back seat and I was driving...”

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

[Steven Kossor]

I stand corrected.  Thanks.  I wonder if Westbrook parked his car in front of the theater after all.  I recall seeing LHO being placed into a blue unmarked car and driven off so the report of Westbrook's car being in front of the theater synched with that in my mind.

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

Steve,

Just one small note...

It wasn't Westbrook's car, it was Bob Carroll's.

 

Steve,

Carroll is covering for Westbrook because Westbrook told the WC he didn't drive his car to the Theater.  Here is the picture Stuart Reed took of Oswald being dragged to Westbrook's unmarked blue car parked directly in front of the theater.

Dallas Morning News reporter Jim Ewell, who was travelling with Westbrook that day, explained the whole thing years ago.  Here's what he wrote:

I was with Westbrook as we all went over to examine the jacket because it was the only tangible thing we had at the moment that belonged to the killer. In fact, I held the jacket in my hands. I remember that they were talking about a water mark on it that was obviously made by a dry cleaning shop. They were discussing it when the report came in that the person they thought might be the police officer’s assailant had gone into the Texas Theatre. Now we were on East Jefferson, so I’m thinking that we were about five blocks from that location. Immediately, Captain Westbrook and Sergeant Stringer ran back to their car, which was across the street, and I ran to jump in the backseat. By that time, they were already turning out and accelerating. When I got in the backset with the door still hanging open, I came out of the car hanging onto the door. They slowed down long enough for me to get back in, as I could have been flung out against the gravel into a curb if I hadn’t held on. Anyway, when we arrived at the Texas Theatre, we parked right in front and everybody jumped out and went into the lobby.

The next thing I recall is that I was out on the street with the car that I arrived in between me and the officers bringing Oswald out of the theater as they kind of separated the crowd and made an aisle for him to come through to get to the car. I’d say that I was about ten to twelve feet away from Oswald at the time. During this sequence of events, I was distracted by the tone of a teenage girl, and we used this in the story because at that time, for teenagers, especially teenage girls to be so profane was just very uncommon. But this girl shouted, “Kill the son of a bitch!” And the Dallas News let us use that. Being a strong family newspaper in 1963, we still used that because it was very pertinent to describe to the readers how supercharged the area was. This was about thirty-five minutes after the shooting of Tippit, so the word apparently had already gotten out around that part of Oak Cliff that they were looking for a cop killer. Evidently this teenage girl got swept up into it to the point that she was that emphatic about what she thought ought to be done to this person later identified as Oswald. There were some other shouts and threats made right there by the crowd which had been brought there by the arrival of all these squad cars with sirens screaming and then screeching up front and also by the arrival of squad cars in the alley behind the Texas Theatre as they came in from the back as well. It was obviously an ugly crowd, but not to the point that they were going to overpower the police officers and try to get the prisoner. Oswald then took my place in the backseat of the same car that I arrived in. So when they left with him, I stood there, stranded. I then hitchhiked a ride with a man in a pickup truck.

 

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Steve,

Carroll is covering for Westbrook because Westbrook told the WC he didn't drive his car to the Theater.  Here is the picture Stuart Reed took of Oswald being dragged to Westbrook's unmarked blue car parked directly in front of the theater.

 

Dallas Morning News reporter Jim Ewell, who was travelling with Westbrook that day, explained the whole thing years ago.  Here's what he wrote:

 

Oswald then took my place in the backseat of the same car that I arrived in. So when they left with him, I stood there, stranded. I then hitchhiked a ride with a man in a pickup truck.

 

Jim and Steve,

Bob Carroll was a Detective in the Dallas Police Department's Special Service Bureau.

see page 4 of Batchelor's Exhibit# 5002

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf

They did not drive marked numbered cars like J.D. Tippit, who worked in the Patrol Division. (see page 10 of that same WC Exhibit).

They drove unmarked cars in the 400 range.

You can see this reflected in the Dallas Dispatch Tapes

Page 852

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1139#relPageId=884

Page 871

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1139#relPageId=903

Jack Revill, V.J. Brian and Roy Westphal, who were all members of the Special Service Bureau, identified themselves as belonging to the Criminal Intelligence Section or Division.

Roy Westphal

No More Silence by Larry Sneed

page 328

https://books.google.com/books?id=7uT-47ysB5MC&pg=PA326&lpg=PA326&dq=Dallas+%22+Roy+Westphal%22&source=bl&ots=eii6yRhLo8&sig=nr0C2_dukxaBfdcQiFnDLg3ugKM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjt-9Xpi8nRAhVpwFQKHZBBDX0Q6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=Dallas%20%22%20Roy%20Westphal%22&f=false

WV testimony of V.J/ Brian

https://www.jfk-assassination.eu/warren/wch/vol5/page48.php

 

Mr. Brian.

Yes, sir; I am a detective in the criminal intelligence section.

Mr. Rankin.

How long have you occupied that position?
Mr, BRIAN. Since June of 1955.

Mr. Rankin.

What is your function as a detective for the criminal intelligence section?

 

WC testimony of Jack Revill

https://www.jfk-assassination.eu/warren/wch/vol5/page33.php

 

Mr. Revill.

I was promoted to lieutenant June 26, 1958.

Mr. Rankin.

Do you have any particular area of responsibility?

Mr. Revill.

Yes, sir; I am presently in charge of the criminal intelligence section.

Jim Ewell was wrong about which car they put Oswald in. You would have to believe him and ignore they after action reports and testimony of Bob Carroll, C.T. Walker, Paul Bentley, Gerald Hill, and K.E. Lyon.

Steve Thomas

 

[Paul Brancato]

Steve - so many links - could you explain more about the after action reports of 5 officers? You quote briefly testimony by 3 other detectives. In a previous post you quote Officer Carroll’s testimony. Are you saying that several other officers wrote after action reports that support Carroll’s testimony?
The reporter in question gave a very thorough account of his movements and observations. 

[Sandy Larsen]

On 4/9/2022 at 9:59 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

Your remark about some of the diagrams being too small to read is well taken.  In the first draft of the Web article, I had many of the diagrams MUCH larger, but John A. and I agreed that it just made a mess out of the page layout.  Do you think download links to larger images of some of the critical illustrations would help?  Would people actually use them?  John has so many details in his write-ups that I’m always conscious of trying to make the page move along as efficiently as possible.

 

I think that some readers will just take your word for conclusions made about the diagrams, while others will want to study the diagrams for themselves. (I belong to the latter camp.)

I think that the ideal solution would be to place the phrase "View enlarged image in new browser tab" immediately below the image. That phrase links to the enlarged image. You could also place the phrase "Use Ctrl +/- to zoom in/out" just below the enlarged image for those who are unfamiliar with that browser feature.

 

[Steven Kossor]

Given a climate so hospitable to disguise and deception in Dallas around 11/22/63, it would not be a shock to the senses if an effort to present a consistent, sanitized story was undertaken at the DPD, much like the effort to disguise the performance of a surgical tracheotomy by three Parkland doctors (after Carrico's botched endotracheal tracheotomy procedure).  Malcolm Perry didn't mention the surgical intervention he and the other two doctors performed, and spoke only about Carrico's endotracheal tracheotomy activity (passing a tube down JFK's throat, not cutting into his windpipe), in the 2pm Parkland press conference announcing JFK's death.  Most people still don't understand that there were two separate, sequential attempts by Parkland medical doctors to assist JFK's dead body with respiration on 11/22/63. 

In any case, I suppose it's possible that Westbrook's car is shown in the picture in front of the Texas theater, and that the other officers were describing a different (very similar) car parked nearby.  Since the DPD officers seem to have been using each other's cars with startling ease (did the same key work multiple vehicles?), the confusion surrounding which car transported LHO to police headquarters is about the same magnitude as the confusion surrounding who was removed from the back of the Texas theater while LHO (?) was being removed on-camera from the front.  I'm adding Harvey and Lee to my "library of information" about the JFK assassination.  Damn the confirmation bias!  The truth will out only if we don't stop seeking after it (reconciling seemingly contradictory observations), right?

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, Steven Kossor said:

Given a climate so hospitable to disguise and deception in Dallas around 11/22/63, it would not be a shock to the senses if an effort to present a consistent, sanitized story was undertaken at the DPD, much like the effort to disguise the performance of a surgical tracheotomy by three Parkland doctors (after Carrico's botched endotracheal tracheotomy procedure).  Malcolm Perry didn't mention the surgical intervention he and the other two doctors performed, and spoke only about Carrico's endotracheal tracheotomy activity (passing a tube down JFK's throat, not cutting into his windpipe), in the 2pm Parkland press conference announcing JFK's death.  Most people still don't understand that there were two separate, sequential attempts by Parkland medical doctors to assist JFK's dead body with respiration on 11/22/63. 

In any case, I suppose it's possible that Westbrook's car is shown in the picture in front of the Texas theater, and that the other officers were describing a different (very similar) car parked nearby.  Since the DPD officers seem to have been using each other's cars with startling ease (did the same key work multiple vehicles?), the confusion surrounding which car transported LHO to police headquarters is about the same magnitude as the confusion surrounding who was removed from the back of the Texas theater while LHO (?) was being removed on-camera from the front.  I'm adding Harvey and Lee to my "library of information" about the JFK assassination.  Damn the confirmation bias!  The truth will out only if we don't stop seeking after it (reconciling seemingly contradictory observations), right?

Yes, there was an endotracheal tube placed by Carrico.  It' wasn't working.  Perry did the tracheotomy/tracheostomy in an existing entry wound in the throat per his statements that day.  Three times in the press conference less than an hour after JFK died.  His initial statement, twice more answering questions to verify his statement.  Someone linked the text of the press conference on the site here recently.  Perry told his colleague at Washington State it was an entry wound.  Watch it in Destiny Betrayed.  

[Steven Kossor]

Perry used the word "endotracheal" in his press conference, and described only the procedure performed by Carrico.  He did not describe a tracheal incision in that press conference.  Only later, after Humes had inquired about whether or not he performed surgery of the neck, and was pressured by others including CIA figures, did he talk about cutting into the throat at all (he located his incision in several different places over time) and did his best to accommodate the forces pressing on him to fall in line with the established narrative.  He was in a terrible fix.  As are we all.