Peter Dale Scott on “Harvey Lee Oswald”

[Jim Hargrove]

13 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

And she never met Lee? 

I think every effort would have been made to prevent Marina from meeting Lee.

[Jim Hargrove]

Peter Dale Scott and John Newman on two Oswalds from the March 3, 2018 “Spy War” conference (emphasis added by me):

Above clip from 3 March, 2018 "Spy Wars" Conference, San Francisco, Part 2.

Speakers in this clip are:

Bill Simpich--BS
Peter Dale Scott – PDS
John Newman – JN

At approximately the 37:12 mark in the YouTube clip above:

BS: There’s two different genuses of false phone calls. 
PDS: Yeah, exactly.  One was a call with a lie in it, the other was an alleged call that did not, in fact, take place.
JN: The Tuesday call didn’t take place?
PDS: No, the Tuesday call did take place by a man, I’m sure, was not the Oswald we think of….
JN: Right
PDS: ... and then, by the way… this is just a question… are you absolutely convinced that the man who was “Lee Harvey Oswald” in Russia was, in fact, the man picked up in Dallas in 1963?
JN: Not at all.  And I’ve gone over to the view that in Mexico City that, maybe it’s him, maybe it’s not. So I’m not going to be dogmatic about it. He could have been there and impersonated or could have been not there at all.
PDS: ... There is a fragment of a release that says that the man who made the phone calls spoke horrible Russian AND English!  So, I do not think that was the man in Dallas….  This is completely anecdotal but I once had an hour long conversation with Marina where I was trying my hardest not to bring up the assassination.  We were talking about literature and I said did she like Henry James and she said she had never heard of Henry James, who was Henry James and I said, “Oh, he’s sort of like the American Turgenev.  And she said, “Oh, Turgenev, Alek really loved Turgenev.”  The man who checked out books from the New Orleans Public Library was not a lover of Turgenev.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Jim Hargrove

[John Butler]

14 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

I'm glad you've asked this question, Paul. "Harvey and Lee" adherents have at various points claimed, without a shred of evidence, that Marina was "in on the plot" involving two distinct Oswalds and that she was intimately familiar with both doppelgangers. Not to mention their belief in multiple Marguerite Oswalds running amok across the United States for years ...

Jonathan,

Do you really think anyone really pays attention to your fantasies? 

[John Butler]

53 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

PDS: ... and then, by the way… this is just a question… are you absolutely convinced that the man who was “Lee Harvey Oswald” in Russia was, in fact, the man picked up in Dallas in 1963?
JN: Not at all.  And I’ve gone over to the view that in Mexico City that, maybe it’s him, maybe it’s not. So I’m not going to be dogmatic about it. He could have been there and impersonated or could have been not there at all.

Is John Newman saying the original Lee Harvey Oswald may have been in Russia?  I read "Not at all" as the two are different and there was a possibility that Lee Oswald was in Russia.  

And, I am glad to see he has weakened his position on Oswald in Mexico City to "Maybe it's him, maybe it's not".  IMO, that's better than saying one is following the paper trail of Oswald in Mexico City and thinking Oswald was actually there.  If I have misread early Newman than I will stand corrected.

[Dan Rice]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

PDS: ...  And she said, “Oh, Turgenev, Alek really loved Turgenev.”  The man who checked out books from the New Orleans Public Library was not a lover of Turgenev.

Did she really call her husband (LHO) Alek?

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

And she said, “Oh, Turgenev, Alek really loved Turgenev.”  The man who checked out books from the New Orleans Public Library was not a lover of Turgenev.

Actually, Peter Dale Scott.

It is extremely interesting that after all those years Marina is fondly recalling Harvey by the name Alec, a lover of Turgenev writings.  I have to agree with PDS.  I believe there were two Oswalds at work in New Orleans.  I wonder how the two Oswalds related to Judith Baker?  Did they play their usual games?  Judith, herself, said she had very poor facial recognition skills.  

[John Butler]

4 minutes ago, Dan Rice said:

Did she really call her husband (LHO) Alek?

I would say yes.  The Oswald, at the time of meeting him, she knew was skilled in Russian to the point she didn't recognize him as a foreigner, an American, but as a Russian with a Polish accent.   This particular person we call Harvey Oswald.  This is who Marina married.  IMO, Marina was a spy and played whatever role was necessary to get to America.  If that meant relating to both Oswalds, I think she did what was necessary. 

[Steve Thomas]

I think one way of differentiating between the two is examining their personality.

One was sullen and truculent. the other was affable and friendly and played with children.. I think the woman at the Unemployment office encountered both of them.

Steve Thomas

 

[Jim Hargrove]

Steve,

I couldn't agree with you more about Laura Kittrell meeting the two Oswalds.  John A. has a ton of material on and from her on his Baylor University site. On the Minsk radio plant report, are we really to believe that a Harvey Lee and a Lee Harvey were both hired as regulators in the experimental shop?  Seems more likely it was just a transposition error, at least in this case.

[Jim Hargrove]

5 hours ago, John Butler said:

Is John Newman saying the original Lee Harvey Oswald may have been in Russia?  I read "Not at all" as the two are different and there was a possibility that Lee Oswald was in Russia.  

And, I am glad to see he has weakened his position on Oswald in Mexico City to "Maybe it's him, maybe it's not".  IMO, that's better than saying one is following the paper trail of Oswald in Mexico City and thinking Oswald was actually there.  If I have misread early Newman than I will stand corrected.

I read it as both men questioning whether the Oswald in Russia was the same Oswald shot by Ruby.  I hadn’t looked at this in several years, and the minute I saw it again I thought of your work.  Interesting.

Most serious researchers strongly suspect there is a big problem with the Official Biography of LHO, such as what is found in the Warren Report.  There is just so much evidence that doesn’t fit what we’ve been told.  

And, of course, there are people working hard to sweep all that evidence under the carpet and make it seem to go away.  

I couldn’t agree with you more about Dr. Newman’s change of mind about the Mexico City Oswald.
 

5 hours ago, Dan Rice said:

Did she really call her husband (LHO) Alek?

I think so, but I’m not sure of the spelling (Alec vs. Alek) and such. In her Warren Commission testimony, Marina said:

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know by what name Lee Oswald was introduced to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Everyone there called him Alec, at his place of work, because Lee is an unusual, cumbersome name. For Russians it was easier--this was easier.
Mr. RANKIN. Is Alec a name close to Lee, as far as the Russian language is concerned?
Mrs. OSWALD. A little. Somewhat similar.

It’s important to remember, though, that there were translators handling her testimony.
 

[John Butler]

6 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I read it as both men questioning whether the Oswald in Russia was the same Oswald shot by Ruby.  I hadn’t looked at this in several years, and the minute I saw it again I thought of your work.  Interesting.

Most serious researchers strongly suspect there is a big problem with the Official Biography of LHO, such as what is found in the Warren Report.  There is just so much evidence that doesn’t fit what we’ve been told.  

And, of course, there are people working hard to sweep all that evidence under the carpet and make it seem to go away.  

I couldn’t agree with you more about Dr. Newman’s change of mind about the Mexico City Oswald.
 

I think so, but I’m not sure of the spelling (Alec vs. Alek) and such. In her Warren Commission testimony, Marina said:

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know by what name Lee Oswald was introduced to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Everyone there called him Alec, at his place of work, because Lee is an unusual, cumbersome name. For Russians it was easier--this was easier.
Mr. RANKIN. Is Alec a name close to Lee, as far as the Russian language is concerned?
Mrs. OSWALD. A little. Somewhat similar.

It’s important to remember, though, that there were translators handling her testimony.
 

Jim,

Lee Oswald's entire Marine career was about the U2.  I did a timeline on the Oswalds military careers.  This was helped by David Joseph's timeline and other things I pulled together.  To me, Slyvia Meagher and Mae Brussells were correct in saying Oswald was sent to Russian to interfere in the peace talks between Eisenhower and Khrucshev.   IMO, the shooting down of Gary Powers was directly connected to Oswald being sent to the Minsk factory as a Regulator.  For Regulator read Supervisor rather than lathe operator.  Oswald was in charge of the entire new product lab.  Or, it was made to seem that he was.

I read the evidence speaking of Oswald's language ability as reading for both Lee and Harvey.  Lee first with his inability to speak Russian at an advanced level.  I don't think this was Harvey hiding his language ability.  You can't hide anything from the KGB. Then Harvey later in time to marry Marina.  It could be both were there playing their usual game.  That is what they had been trained for, for years since they were teens.  There is a photograph showing Harvey with I am going to presume are his co-workers at the Minsk shop.  The photo was taken just outside the door of the experimental lab. 

From Marina's testimony it is Harvey she was describing as Alec or Alek who could speak Russian so well she thought he was a Baltic native with a Polish accent and not an American.   Lee, If he was ever in Russia was not around by this time, or was which I can't make up my mind on.  I've always thought the problems between Marina and Harvey were from the role she played with both men.

This is astounding piece of evidence, it true.

This would suggest the Soviets knew both Lee Oswald and Harvey Oswald, if true.  This doesn't read as a mix-up of names. 

Edited May 22, 2022 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

9 hours ago, John Butler said:

From Marina's testimony it is Harvey she was describing as Alec or Alek who could speak Russian so well she thought he was a Baltic native with a Polish accent and not an American.

John,

Both you and Steve Thomas apparently see something in the Minsk radio report that seems improbable, at least to me.  On the other hand, it’s hard to deny something weird is going on from the sheer number of these Harvey Lee Oswald references.

For the life of me, despite your photo analysis, I don’t see much evidence that both Oswalds were in the Soviet Union in the early 1960s. Wish I could trust the photographic record more.   Recall that there are all kinds of incidents involving LHO in America during this very period.  The Bolton Ford incident, for example, occurred on 1/20/1961.

Marina’s testimony about Harvey’s Russian language skill is tricky because, I think, she was hiding her English fluency in the same way Harvey was hiding his skills at the Russian language.  Recall that Robert Webster indicated to Dick Russell that Marina spoke good English, despite a heavy accent, when he met her.

On our website, James Norwood described how Norman Mailer, in Oswald’s Tale, failed to even consider what language Marina and LHO spoke when they met.

 

In Oswald’s Tale, Mailer provides transcripts of Oswald in conversation with Marina, as recorded by the KGB.  In this dialogue, the Marxist sympathizer Oswald is trying to convince his skeptical wife of the virtues of capitalism in America—making money, unlimited material advantages, ownership of property, high standard of living.  But in the transcripts, Mailer fails to disclose or even take an interest in whether the conversations were being spoken in English or Russian.

[Steve Thomas]

16 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Steve,

On the Minsk radio plant report, are we really to believe that a Harvey Lee and a Lee Harvey were both hired as regulators in the experimental shop?  Seems more likely it was just a transposition error, at least in this case.

Jim,

CE 985 page 111

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=444&search=%22Harvey_Lee%20Oswald%22

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=447&tab=page

On page 433 of that CE Exhibit (CE 985), it says that “Citizen” Harvey Lee Oswald was hired as a regulator at the Minsk Radio Plant on January 13, 1960.

"Comrade" Lee Harvey Oswald is employed January 1, 1960 as an assembler.

"Citizen" Harvey Lee Oswald is hired two weeks later on January 13, 1960 as a regulator.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=7986&relPageId=111&search=Dobrynin_December%2011,%201963

p. 111.

In this letter, it says that Harvey Lee Oswald's request for USSR Citizenship was denied. It doesn't say when he applied for that citizenship, but the character reference memo from the Minsk Radio factory in CE 985, p. 433 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&relPageId=447&search=%22Harvey_Lee%20Oswald%22 is dated December 11, 1961 and refers to “Citizen” Harvey Lee Oswald.

On January 4, 1960, Lee Harvey Oswald applied for a non-citizen alien identity card. In the space for the names of relatives living abroad, he listed his mother, Margaret living at 3124 W. 5^th. St. in Fort Worth. No brother is listed. Four photographs are provided. (Photos not included in the documents)

This document spells out the details of a non-citizen identity card (Series P-311479)

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10210-10003.pdf

One week later, on January 11, 1960 he submitted an application for employment at the Minsk Radio and TV plant. On his application, he wrote that his parents were dead, and he had no brothers or sisters.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&search=%22Harvey_Lee+Oswald%22#relPageId=441&tab=page

If he didn’t apply for the job until January 11^th, how could there be a Certificate of Employment dated January 1^st?

On January 4, 1961 he applied for an extension of his non-citizen alien identity card. In the space for the names of relatives living abroad, this space is left blank. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&search=%22Harvey_Lee+Oswald%22#relPageId=430&tab=page

This ID card was extended to January 4, 1962.

 

If Lee Harvey Oswald never applied for Soviet Citizenship, whose application for Citizenship was denied?

Steve Thomas

 

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

Jim,

CE 985 page 111

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=444&search=%22Harvey_Lee%20Oswald%22

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=447&tab=page

On page 433 of that CE Exhibit (CE 985), it says that “Citizen” Harvey Lee Oswald was hired as a regulator at the Minsk Radio Plant on January 13, 1960.

"Comrade" Lee Harvey Oswald is employed January 1, 1960 as an assembler.

"Citizen" Harvey Lee Oswald is hired two weeks later on January 13, 1960 as a regulator.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=7986&relPageId=111&search=Dobrynin_December%2011,%201963

p. 111.

In this letter, it says that Harvey Lee Oswald's request for USSR Citizenship was denied. It doesn't say when he applied for that citizenship, but the character reference memo from the Minsk Radio factory in CE 985, p. 433 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&relPageId=447&search=%22Harvey_Lee%20Oswald%22 is dated December 11, 1961 and refers to “Citizen” Harvey Lee Oswald.

On January 4, 1960, Lee Harvey Oswald applied for a non-citizen alien identity card. In the space for the names of relatives living abroad, he listed his mother, Margaret living at 3124 W. 5^th. St. in Fort Worth. No brother is listed. Four photographs are provided. (Photos not included in the documents)

This document spells out the details of a non-citizen identity card (Series P-311479)

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10210-10003.pdf

One week later, on January 11, 1960 he submitted an application for employment at the Minsk Radio and TV plant. On his application, he wrote that his parents were dead, and he had no brothers or sisters.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&search=%22Harvey_Lee+Oswald%22#relPageId=441&tab=page

If he didn’t apply for the job until January 11^th, how could there be a Certificate of Employment dated January 1^st?

On January 4, 1961 he applied for an extension of his non-citizen alien identity card. In the space for the names of relatives living abroad, this space is left blank. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&search=%22Harvey_Lee+Oswald%22#relPageId=430&tab=page

This ID card was extended to January 4, 1962.

 

If Lee Harvey Oswald never applied for Soviet Citizenship, whose application for Citizenship was denied?

Steve Thomas

 

Wow, Steve!  I finally see what you’re talking about in the Russian docs.  Awesome!

It’s still hard for me to believe the Soviets would have allowed Harvey Lee Oswald and Lee Harvey Oswald to work at the radio factory, but the evidence you have shown is compelling… and I know it extends far beyond Minsk.  

Could this have been a way the Minsk Soviets shined a spotlight on two Oswalds?  Why on earth would they both be there? 

This is simply incredible, and I must thank you again for your work on this!

[Denny Zartman]

Good work by everyone  on this thread. It certainly makes for thought-provoking reading.