The incredible allegation that Ruth Paine did surveillance on Castro sympathizers

[Sandy Larsen]

18 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Jim D. was right, your 285k vs 300k criticism was a cheap shot.

As I explained in my original post about this, I think he should try and be very accurate because he is looked up to and people may take what he says to the bank.

 

If one of Jim's readers repeated what Jim (informally) said, 300k, then that would still be the rounded-off informal number. So no harm done. People understand that numbers are often, if not usually, rounded off. Even newspapers round figures off all the time, particularly in headlines.

 

18 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

But the point is de Mohrenschildt told the WC that the amount was $285,000 but only 20,000 of that was in cash.

 

But the total was $285,000? If so, I don't see anything wrong with saying deMohrenschildt was paid $285,000.

 

18 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

There was a rumor, promoted by conspiracy books, that the amount was 200-250k. That is substantially less than 300k I think you would agree. But even Joan Mellon said that the "probable figure" was only $50,000. So, Jim D's 300k "in the bank" is clearly wrong.

 

I'd like to hear Jim's side of the story. You clearly are out to make him look bad.

 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

12 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I'd like to hear Jim's side of the story. You clearly are out to make him look bad.

Jim made himself look bad. This whole thing is typical conspiracy book stuff. Jim said in the film that George D. had 300k deposited in his account (I can get the exact quote if you insist). Then he told me his source was Douglass. But Douglass' book said the deal was 285k with "over $200,000" deposited in his bank account. This report of the deposit is a hearsay one from a woman who knew George D. But, as I mentioned, George told the WC the cash amount was only 20k (the rest was given in "shares" in a plantation) and even Mellen says no more than 50k cash. Keep in mind 20k is 183k in today's money so even that is a significant amount.

So, the bottom line is if anyone wants to believe the 200k (still other reports say 250k) thing they are free to do so. But the likelihood is that the 20k amount was probably right. I say this because George brought lots of documentation for his WC testimony and seemed concerned about saying the right thing. But what Jim said in the film has no basis in fact regardless of the source he uses (250k is the largest amount mentioned by any conspiracy source I have found so far).

I am working on this and will have a report on my blog later. I am waiting for one more book.

[Sandy Larsen]

On 6/5/2022 at 3:05 PM, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Jim made himself look bad. This whole thing is typical conspiracy book stuff. Jim said in the film that George D. had 300k deposited in his account (I can get the exact quote if you insist). Then he told me his source was Douglass. But Douglass' book said the deal was 285k with "over $200,000" deposited in his bank account. This report of the deposit is a hearsay one from a woman who knew George D. But, as I mentioned, George told the WC the cash amount was only 20k (the rest was given in "shares" in a plantation) and even Mellen says no more than 50k cash. Keep in mind 20k is 183k in today's money so even that is a significant amount.

So, the bottom line is if anyone wants to believe the 200k (still other reports say 250k) thing they are free to do so. But the likelihood is that the 20k amount was probably right. I say this because George brought lots of documentation for his WC testimony and seemed concerned about saying the right thing. But what Jim said in the film has no basis in fact regardless of the source he uses (250k is the largest amount mentioned by any conspiracy source I have found so far).

I am working on this and will have a report on my blog later. I am waiting for one more book.

 

I dug up some information and I can see why there are CT books with varying amounts. The HSCA said the amount was $200,000 or $250,000; Gaeton Fonzi (later) said it was $200,000; and George de Mohrenschildt (earlier) said it was $285,000.

HSCA investigators found that, shortly after the Kennedy Assassination, "a 'substantial' sum of money, $200,000 or $250,000, had been deposited to de Mohrenschildt's account in a bank in Port-Au-Prince ." This was indeed hearsay, but the investigators found it credible. It appears that Gaeton Fonzi subsequently came upon a source with additional information. In a footnote to his book he wrote, "Late in 1963, several large deposits popped up in de Mohrenschildt's Haitian bank account including one for two hundred thousand dollars from a Bahamian bank. This occurred when de Mohrenschildt and Charles were supposedly running a sisal plantation, a derelict operation they never went near."

Drawing information from these two sources, we get the following information about the money:

• Source:  Bahamas.
• Deposited:  Late 1963 (after the assassination).
• Amount:  $200,000 plus other large deposits.
• Notes:  When pretending to run a sisal plantation

Let's compare that to what de Mohrenschildt stated in his WC testimony, which follows:
(I will post his testimony below.)

• Source:  Haiti government (to pay for his geological survey).
• Deposited:  1963 (March or later.).
• Amount:  $285,000 ($20,000 cash plus payments from sisal plantation)
• Notes:  (none)

Right away we see that those cannot be the same monies, as one came from the Haitian government and the other came from a bank in the Bahamas. Which means that de Mohrenschildt made double windfall profits that year, having earned a total of $485,000 or $4,600,000 in today's dollars!

Apparently CT researchers began questioning whether it was true that de Mohrenschildt really had two windfall profits that year. I know I would. I think it's much more likely that he wanted to hide that Bahamian source of money, given that it was known that Bahamian banks were used for money laundering and the funneling of covert CIA money. So he makes up this story about getting a contract with the Haitian government, where he gets $20,000 down and payments from a sisal plantation, which the Haitian government guarantees will reach a $285,000 total.

But the truth is that the money came from the Bahamas for an unknown reason. Could it be a CIA payoff?

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

17 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

I dug up some information and I can see why there are CT books with varying amounts. The HSCA said the amount was $200,000 or $250,000; Gaeton Fonzi (later) said it was $200,000; and George de Mohrenschildt (earlier) said it was $285,000.

HSCA investigators found that, shortly after the Kennedy Assassination, "a 'substantial' sum of money, $200,000 or $250,000, had been deposited to de Mohrenschildt's account in a bank in Port-Au-Prince ." This was indeed hearsay, but the investigators found it credible. It appears that Gaeton Fonzi subsequently came upon a source with additional information. In a footnote to his book he wrote, "Late in 1963, several large deposits popped up in de Mohrenschildt's Haitian bank account including one for two hundred thousand dollars from a Bahamian bank. This occurred when de Mohrenschildt and Charles were supposedly running a sisal plantation, a derelict operation they never went near."

Drawing information from these two sources, we get the following information about the money:

• Source:  Bahamas.
• Deposited:  Late 1963 (after the assassination).
• Amount:  $200,000 plus other large deposits.
• Notes:  When pretending to run a sisal plantation

Let's compare that to what de Mohrenschildt stated in his WC testimony, which follows:
(I will post his testimony below.)

• Source:  Haiti government (to pay for his geological survey).
• Deposited:  1963 (March or later.).
• Amount:  $285,000 ($20,000 cash plus payments from sisal plantation)
• Notes:  (none)

Right away we see that those cannot be the same monies, as one came from the Haitian government and the other came from a bank in the Bahamas. Which means that de Mohrenschildt made double windfall profits that year, having earned a total of $485,000 or $4,600,000 in today's dollars!

Apparently CT researchers began questioning whether it was true that de Mohrenschildt really had two windfall profits that year. I know I would. I think it's much more likely that he wanted to hide that Bahamian source of money, given that it was known that Bahamian banks were used for money laundering and the funneling of covert money for the CIA. So he makes up this story about getting a contract with the Haitian government, where he gets $20,000 down and payments from a sisal plantation, which the Haitian government guarantees will reach a $285,000 total.

But the truth is that the money came from the Bahamas for an unknown reason. Could it be a CIA payoff?

 

 

Tracy,

So it appears that the only mistake Jim made was calling it "a $300k deposit" rather than the more correct "$300k in deposits"... plural. Because it was a 200k deposit plus a number of other large deposits adding up to $300k. Excuse me, I mean $285k.

(Unless I made a mistake in my above analysis. Which is quite possible given what little effort I put into it.)

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

3 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Tracy,

So it appears that the only mistake Jim made was calling it "a $300k deposit" rather than the more correct "$300k in deposits"... plural. Because it was a 200k deposit plus a number of other large deposits adding up to $300k. Excuse me, I mean $285k.

Unless I made a mistake in my above analysis.

 

 

I almost forgot. Here is a description of de Mohrenschildt's relevant WC testimony that I got from HSCA Volume 12, page 55:

(40) De Mohrenschildt testified that his work in the Haitian enterprise was to include conducting a geological survev of Haiti to plot out oil and geological resources on the island. (102) He said that on March 13, 1963, he concluded a contract with the Haitian Government, which guaranteed that he would be paid $285,000 for the survey ; $20.000 was paid in cash and the remainder was to be paid out in a 10-year concession on a sisal plantation . (103) He explained that Clemard Joseph Charles continued the administrative work on the sisal plantation while de Mohrenschildt pursued his geological work. (104)

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Sandy Larsen

[W. Tracy Parnell]

11 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I dug up some information and I can see why there are CT books with varying amounts.

The problem is all of these conspiracy books are using each other as sources. And Fonzi's source has to be the same hearsay one I mentioned. But we'll never know because he uses no citations in his book whatsoever. As I said, I can't stop anyone from believing that there was a "large deposit" placed into George's bank account and the CIA did it. But I think the evidence of that is really sketchy. As I said, I will be doing a report but the way the film handled this (which is really the point here) was poor IMO. It was completely one-sided (which is not the case on every issue).

[Kirk Gallaway]

Joe said:

Also, the woman sang in choirs, folk danced, listened to Peter, Paul And Mary and Kingston Trio records, watched Lawrence Welk on TV, her husband bowled and she actively participated in trying to desegregate Dallas area libraries and other facilities and sympathized with the civil rights movement. A true liberal.

Maybe I'm just totally naive about how well assets can be set up to look so every day normal and innocently humanitarian minded nice and kind?

It's interesting Joe mentioning Ruth Paine  having Kingston Trio records. 2 of my oldest siblings were born before the war. The oldest, my sister is 13 years older than me or roughly Doug and LHO's age. My sister and oldest brother liked the Kingston Trio because they were a local S.F. Bay Area phenomena,  and their first gig was 3 miles from where we lived. They were later shunned by the folk purists as being too commercial but they sort of popularized folk music in the late 50's. They liked some of the early folk artist such as the Weavers, and Woodie Guthrie and were nurturing of the folk movement  and attended Pete Paul and Mary's first gig. And they were celebrity friends with JFK.

This is a song from around 1958, performed at the "Hungry I" in San Francisco, a local venue in the beatnik era that also gave Mort Sahl and the Smothers Brothers a break in their careers. At the very beginning commentary, they raise my first reference as a kid, to John Foster Dulles.

 

https://youtu.be/JVUh5OaiADc

Edited June 6, 2022 by Kirk Gallaway

[Joe Bauer]

16 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Joe said:

Also, the woman sang in choirs, folk danced, listened to Peter, Paul And Mary and Kingston Trio records, watched Lawrence Welk on TV, her husband bowled and she actively participated in trying to desegregate Dallas area libraries and other facilities and sympathized with the civil rights movement. A true liberal.

Maybe I'm just totally naive about how well assets can be set up to look so every day normal and innocently humanitarian minded nice and kind?

It's interesting Joe mentioning Ruth Paine  having Kingston Trio records. 2 of my oldest siblings were born before the war. The oldest, my sister is 13 years older than me or roughly Doug and LHO's age. My sister and oldest brother liked the Kingston Trio because they were a local S.F. Bay Area phenomena,  and their first gig was 3 miles from where we lived. They were later shunned by the folk purists as being too commercial but they sort of popularized folk music in the late 50's. They liked some of the early folk artist such as the Weavers, and Woodie Guthrie and were nurturing of the folk movement  and attended Pete Paul and Mary's first gig. And they were celebrity friends with JFK.

This is a song from around 1958, performed at the "Hungry I" in San Francisco, a local venue in the beatnik era that also gave Mort Sahl and the Smothers Brothers a break in their careers. At the very beginning commentary, they raise my first reference as a kid, to John Foster Dulles.

 

https://youtu.be/JVUh5OaiADc

My oldest brother was born in 1939.

He was into folk music.

He'd play this on his record player throughout the late 1950s.

As a child of 4 through 8 or 9, I liked hearing his records playing.

Something good, wholesome, decent and fun and catchy about it all.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Sandy Larsen]

On 6/6/2022 at 9:16 AM, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Fonzi's source has to be the same hearsay one I mentioned. But we'll never know because he uses no citations in his book whatsoever.

 

It's a shame that Fonzi didn't source that information. But I don't believe it's the same HSCA hearsay source because it includes significant additional details. Like the money coming from the Bahamas (!). Surely the HSCA investigators would not have left that out of their report had they been given it.

The reason I believe the hearsay info (which may be corroborated by Fonzi's source) is because the amounts are roughly the same as what de Mohrenschildt said he earned from his geological survey. And because the HSCA reporters apparently could not confirm the geological survey money. And in addition, found that the plantation was "derelict," from which he would supposedly receive most of the $285k. Sure sounds like a made up story to me.

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Sandy Larsen

[James DiEugenio]

I would have to agree Sandy.  Nice work.

It does seem like a cover story.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

"The Assassination & Mrs. Paine" comes out this month - Page 6 - JFK Assassination Debate - The Education Forum (ipbhost.com)

 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

Greg has done a great job on this topic, but here is my latest blog article which summarizes the issues:

The Assassination and Mrs. Paine-Ruth Surveilled the Left? ~ W. Tracy Parnell (wtracyparnell.blogspot.com)

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

The O.P. should base this thread of facts not conjecture.  Clearly, Buddy Walthers states they found the literature in the house, it is in his document that he signed off on.  His WC testimony does not debunk anything.

 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

You could argue forever about where what was found because there is some ambiguity in the reports. Here is the main point. The seven file boxes belonged to Ruth Paine. They were examined by the Dallas Police, the FBI and Warren Commission personnel including Jenner. The contents were personal correspondence, folk dance records and a projector. There was no information on Cuban or Castro sympathizers in Ruth's files. But there was in the "barrels" that belonged to Oswald.

You can believe the numerous reports that support Ruth or the one statement in the one report by Walthers. But then you have to say the Dallas Police, the FBI and Warren Commission were in on the plot. And somehow, Walthers didn't get the memo.

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

23 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

You could argue forever about where what was found because there is some ambiguity in the reports. Here is the main point. The seven file boxes belonged to Ruth Paine. They were examined by the Dallas Police, the FBI and Warren Commission personnel including Jenner. The contents were personal correspondence, folk dance records and a projector. There was no information on Cuban or Castro sympathizers in Ruth's files. But there was in the "barrels" that belonged to Oswald.

You can believe the numerous reports that support Ruth or the one statement in the one report by Walthers. But then you have to say the Dallas Police, the FBI and Warren Commission were in on the plot. And somehow, Walthers didn't get the memo.

I base my opinions based on facts, not conjecture or hearsay. 

Facts are:

1. Buddy Walthers created a report when the seven file boxes belonging to Ruth Paine were sequestered.

2. The report states there is literature concerning Cuban sympathizers.

3. Buddy Walthers cannot remember the report he created in his WC testimony.

Those are facts. Facts don't change. 

What people say months or years later and not under oath is suspect.

Thanks for you reply, this thread has gotten a lot of interest and it is one of the best threads I have seen in a while.