Did Ruth Paine knowingly refuse to inform Oswald of a Trans Texas Airways better job? No. Another baseless smear.

[James DiEugenio]

I stand by what I wrote.

Where are the 302's concerning Ruth's story? I have never seen them.

Has anyone?  Because in all the books I have ever read, and this is from people who read the whole 26 volumes, no one has ever referred to that 302.

If I am right on this, does this not say something about the WC, the FBI and Ruth?

Is it also just a coincidence that Jenner is the same guy who examined Thornley? 

Edited June 30, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

QUOTING JEAN DAVISON (one of the best and finest JFK researchers I've ever had the pleasure of talking to):

"The book you're quoting claims that Adams spoke with someone at the Paine house about an offer for a permanent, higher-paying job. But if you'll look at Adams' affidavit you'll see there's no evidence that he mentioned any details about this job to Ruth. His affidavit says only that he left a message for Oswald to contact him:

[QUOTING ROBERT ADAMS:]

My best recollection is that on that day I called [the Paines' phone number]. I learned from the person who answered the phone that Oswald was not there. I left a message with that person that Oswald should contact me at the Commission. My further recollection is that the following morning at 10:30 o'clock I again called ... and learned from the person who answered that Oswald was not there and that he had in the meantime obtained employment and was working.

[END ADAMS QUOTE]

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh11/html/WC_Vol11_0246a.htm

Everything else was the author's [James Douglass] assumption -- or rather, the assumption of whoever first made this allegation about Ruth Paine.

[...]

Again, there's no evidence that she [Ruth Paine] ever heard these details [about how much the airline/cargo job paid], so why should she recall them?

[...]

[Robert Adams' affidavit of 8/4/64] says that on October 7 Adams left a message at the Paine house. Evidently Ruth told Oswald, because he applied for the job but wasn't hired. It would've been a permanent job paying $350 a month.

Here's the agency record showing Oswald's job referrals. "NH" in the Results column means "not hired." (Scroll down)

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0209b.htm

[...]

It's likely that Ruth took the call [from the Texas Employment Commission after Oswald was hired at the TSBD], certainly. But you're still *assuming* that she was told there was a *higher-paying job available* -- there's no evidence for that! Adams said the message was to have Oswald return his call, nothing more.

It's possible that Ruth did tell Oswald about the call, and that Oswald himself decided not to bother since he'd already started working somewhere else. Don't people usually stop looking for work after they've found a job?

Ruth apparently did pass on a lead to a different higher-paying job, mentioned above. How does that fit into her nefarious plans for Oswald, in your view? If he'd gotten that job, no 6th floor sniper's nest for him!"

-- Jean Davison; June 29, 2008

[Original 2008 discussion is HERE.]

 

 

David, this is not entirely accurate. There is absolutely evidence, though not proof, that Adams did pass on the message that the Trans-Texas job paid $310 per month. Jean is correct in stating that Adams' affidavit of 8/4/64 only stated that Adams left a message to contact him, but Adams' original statement to the FBI (from five days after the assassination) is a bit different:

Adams further stated the records reflect that he left a telephone message for Oswald on October 15, 1963, at which time Oswald was referred to Trans-Texas for a job as a cargo handler at $310 per month. He did not report to this employer since according to notations made by Adams on the card Adams learned at 10:30 a.m. on October 16, 1963, that Oswald was working...

...He stated that he is interpreting the records from cryptic-type notations appearing thereon and that while the dates are correct there may be some question as to whether the contacts were telephonic or personal. 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95615#relPageId=87

Obviously this is far from conclusive, but it certainly leaves open the possibility that Adams did inform Paine about the pay rate. Like Jim said, it would have been a piece of cake for the FBI to follow up on this and find out what really happened, but they didn't. Also, Adams did not mention speaking to Paine and requesting a callback in his original statement, which makes you wonder about what or who refreshed his memory for his belated affidavit nine months later.  

 

 

[Greg Doudna]

5 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Reading back through this, I think that the stuff from Kittrell actually supports the notion that Paine concealed the Trans Texas Airways job. If Paine had mentioned calling the TEC on Oswald’s behalf to anyone it’d be one thing, but Paine only testified that she remembered that an opportunity with the TEC had fallen through. 

It seems reasonable to think that Paine would remember calling the TEC herself a lot clearer than a few random earlier conversations. If Paine told Oswald about a generic job offer and/or phone call received from Adams, and Oswald subsequently told her to call the TEC and inform them that he was already employed, and the conversation went as Kittrel described, it seems to me like that would be pretty memorable.

I’ve been doing a lot of this lately, but to quote Larry Schnapf: “Yes- she may have been confused in her testimony or she could have been prevaricating. If she was confused, it could also mean she did not pass on the phone message from Lee. Her confusion is not proof of anything. And the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.”    

Paine’s failure to testify about - or ever mention to anyone - the phone call to Kittrell could be an innocent lapse, or she could have been prevaricating. Like Jim said, Adams said that Paine told him that Oswald was already employed, but Paine failed to remember that conversation too. 

On the other hand, David Von Pein said: “It's possible that Ruth did tell Oswald about the call, and that Oswald himself decided not to bother since he'd already started working somewhere else. Don't people usually stop looking for work after they've found a job?” This seems pretty reasonable, but if this is true Ruth both forwarded the message to Adams, and called Kittrell to inform her that Oswald found a job at the TSBD, and subsequently forgot that any of this ever happened. 

Paine’s selective memory about her own interactions with the TEC is a legitimate ambiguity in the evidence, and I think it’s very hard to argue with Jim’s assessment:

“…This is what a real criminal lawyer would have done.  Because Ruth's story has all the earmarks of being self serving.  If it was true, it would have been easy to show it was.”

Tom, first of all welcome. On this comment, you may be assuming too much. Why assume Ruth Paine failed to remember those things? She may well have remembered the phone calls you name but failed to connect them to what was being asked of her. If you read the questions she was asked in her WC testimony, there is nothing in those questions to connect a job opportunity to Lee from Trans Texas Airways (which she could not place, not having heard that name before, nor was she told when it occurred) to the final phone call from Adams and hers back to TEC on Lee's behalf (per Kittrell) after Lee got the TSBD job. She was likely aware of multiple calls for Lee, messages all of which she would have passed on, how would she know which was which, at the time she was asked.

Does it make sense that Ruth would wilfully prevent Lee from knowing of a message to call TEC back? Really?

[Ron Bulman]

7 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

QUOTING JEAN DAVISON (one of the best and finest JFK researchers I've ever had the pleasure of talking to):

"The book you're quoting claims that Adams spoke with someone at the Paine house about an offer for a permanent, higher-paying job. But if you'll look at Adams' affidavit you'll see there's no evidence that he mentioned any details about this job to Ruth. His affidavit says only that he left a message for Oswald to contact him:

[QUOTING ROBERT ADAMS:]

My best recollection is that on that day I called [the Paines' phone number]. I learned from the person who answered the phone that Oswald was not there. I left a message with that person that Oswald should contact me at the Commission. My further recollection is that the following morning at 10:30 o'clock I again called ... and learned from the person who answered that Oswald was not there and that he had in the meantime obtained employment and was working.

[END ADAMS QUOTE]

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh11/html/WC_Vol11_0246a.htm

Everything else was the author's [James Douglass] assumption -- or rather, the assumption of whoever first made this allegation about Ruth Paine.

[...]

Again, there's no evidence that she [Ruth Paine] ever heard these details [about how much the airline/cargo job paid], so why should she recall them?

[...]

[Robert Adams' affidavit of 8/4/64] says that on October 7 Adams left a message at the Paine house. Evidently Ruth told Oswald, because he applied for the job but wasn't hired. It would've been a permanent job paying $350 a month.

Here's the agency record showing Oswald's job referrals. "NH" in the Results column means "not hired." (Scroll down)

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0209b.htm

[...]

It's likely that Ruth took the call [from the Texas Employment Commission after Oswald was hired at the TSBD], certainly. But you're still *assuming* that she was told there was a *higher-paying job available* -- there's no evidence for that! Adams said the message was to have Oswald return his call, nothing more.

It's possible that Ruth did tell Oswald about the call, and that Oswald himself decided not to bother since he'd already started working somewhere else. Don't people usually stop looking for work after they've found a job?

Ruth apparently did pass on a lead to a different higher-paying job, mentioned above. How does that fit into her nefarious plans for Oswald, in your view? If he'd gotten that job, no 6th floor sniper's nest for him!"

-- Jean Davison; June 29, 2008

[Original 2008 discussion is HERE.]

 

OMG.  Shades of prior wasted space.  DVP quoting Jean Davison.  I'll skip this.

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

Tom, first of all welcome. On this comment, you may be assuming too much. Why assume Ruth Paine failed to remember those things? She may well have remembered the phone calls you name but failed to connect them to what was being asked of her. If you read the questions she was asked in her WC testimony, there is nothing in those questions to connect a job opportunity to Lee from Trans Texas Airways (which she could not place, not having heard that name before, nor was she told when it occurred) to the final phone call from Adams and hers back to TEC on Lee's behalf (per Kittrell) after Lee got the TSBD job. She was likely aware of multiple calls for Lee, messages all of which she would have passed on, how would she know which was which, at the time she was asked.

Does it make sense that Ruth would wilfully prevent Lee from knowing of a message to call TEC back? Really?

Hi Greg. I’m glad to be here. I think the testimony is pretty clear on the timing. Jenner provided more than enough information for Ruth to make the connection: 

JENNER: Yes. This was right at the time that he obtained employment at the TSBD.

PAINE: And he was definitely offered such a job?

JENNER: Well, I won't say it was offered - that he might have been able to secure a job through the Texas Employment Commission as a cargo handler at $310.00 per month.

Your original post on Kittrell said:

“I believe the following tells Oswald's response to the Texas Employment Commission after Ruth Paine passed on to him the message from Robert Adams.”

If Paine passed on a message to Oswald about a generic potential job opportunity (let’s assume the details weren’t mentioned, but per my last comment in this thread that isn’t entirely clear), and Oswald specifically requested her to call the TEC back for him to let them know he had obtained employment at the TSBD, and she told Adams the same when he called, you’d think that Paine would remember that sort of thing in response to unambiguous questioning from Jenner about job offers from the TEC “right around the time that he obtained employment at the TSBD”.

It seems like a bit of a stretch to think that Paine’s only recollection of any job opportunities Oswald had from any agency would be from an earlier conversation while Oswald was still unemployed: 

PAINE: I do recall some reference of that sort, which fell through--that there was not that possibility.

JENNER: Tell us what you know about it. Did you hear of it at any time?

PAINE: Yes.

JENNER: How did it come about?

PAINE: From Lee, as I recall.

JENNER: And was it at that time, or just right –

PAINE: It was at the time, while he was yet unemployed.

JENNER: And about the time he obtained employment at the Texas School Book Depository?

PAINE: It seems he went into town with some hopes raised by the employment agency - whether a public or private agency I don't know - but then reported that the job had been filled and not available to him.

JENNER: But that was –

PAINE: That is my best recollection.

Paine cut Jenner off who was almost certainly about to say words to the effect of “But that was before he had obtained employment at the TSBD. What about any job opportunities from the TEC from around the same time he obtained employment”

I think it is perfectly reasonable for someone to read this testimony as being deliberately evasive instead of confused, especially since Paine apparently had a specific conversation with Kittrell on Oswald’s behalf about obtaining employment at the TSBD, and also told Adams that Oswald wasn’t interested when he called back on the 16th. 

In response to your last question, I have no idea. I’m making no assumptions about Paine’s motives. I just think that the  available evidence leaves a non-zero probability that Paine really did willfully prevent Lee from knowing of a message from the TEC. My interpretation could definitely be wrong, but I think that the people making this allegation actually have a solid case. 

Edited July 1, 2022 by Tom Gram

[Paul Brancato]

I’d like to add something. In my opinion if LHO got a significantly better job offer right after accepting a job at TSBD he would surely have been interested. People do this all the time. The assumption that the timing of the TSBD offers gives Ruth Paine a way out is illogical. Does someone wants to argue that Oswald knew about and ignored the better paying job because he had an agenda, calling for him to be in place at the TSBD? Clearly not - officially the JFK route was not publicly known at the time. But it’s possible that we are not privy to some deeper planning for the motorcade, such as having assassins in place first and then making sure the motorcade route planners cooperated. 

[Kirk Gallaway]

Is there any evidence in testimony that RP was privy to wage information in Lee's quest for a job? If there is, this argument has some hope. If not, it's like a lot of info disseminated here. You're entitled to your opinion but no evidentiary basis has been established that RP knew of a higher paying job prospect for Lee and withheld it.

 

Furthermore these are Adam's thoughts when Ruth Paine phones him.Adams shows such professional discretion in his account of  RP phoning him to tell him Oswald got a job, and his curiosity that he was talking to somebody other than Lee's wife.

 

 

"I became momentarily and quite unreasonably terror-stricken once more: Just who was this Mrs. RP_____ who wasn't his wife? Why was she calling ... [half of line missing in photocopy] ... "his wife can't talk to you". I was unable at that time to think of any reason why she should not be able to, for I was too frightened to think clearly. Was the poor woman dead? Had he gone home after all, that day, and shot her? And taken up with this other woman? I plainly pictured him burying his wife under a rosebush, and acting as nothing had happened. I recall that my hand on the telephone commenced to tremble, and I was just about unable to speak."

 

 Why would anybody here assume that wage particulars would be given out to a complete stranger over the phone who says she's Lee's friend?

 

Hold to this position if you must, but this argument ultimately fails.

[David Von Pein]

[Tom Gram]

11 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Is there any evidence in testimony that RP was privy to wage information in Lee's quest for a job? If there is, this argument has some hope. If not, it's like a lot of info disseminated here. You're entitled to your opinion but no evidentiary basis has been established that RP knew of a higher paying job prospect for Lee and withheld it.

 

Furthermore these are Adam's thoughts when Ruth Paine phones him.Adams shows such professional discretion in his account of  RP phoning him to tell him Oswald got a job, and his curiosity that he was talking to somebody other than Lee's wife.

 

 

"I became momentarily and quite unreasonably terror-stricken once more: Just who was this Mrs. RP_____ who wasn't his wife? Why was she calling ... [half of line missing in photocopy] ... "his wife can't talk to you". I was unable at that time to think of any reason why she should not be able to, for I was too frightened to think clearly. Was the poor woman dead? Had he gone home after all, that day, and shot her? And taken up with this other woman? I plainly pictured him burying his wife under a rosebush, and acting as nothing had happened. I recall that my hand on the telephone commenced to tremble, and I was just about unable to speak."

 

 Why would anybody here assume that wage particulars would be given out to a complete stranger over the phone who says she's Lee's friend?

 

Hold to this position if you must, but this argument ultimately fails.

Hi Kirk. That excerpt is describing a call made from Ruth to Laura Kittrell, not Adams. According to Kittrell, Ruth said that Oswald told her to call because he thought Kittrell would be “worried about him” - not because he’d been informed about a potential job opportunity. Ruth then informed Kittrell that Oswald had obtained employment at the TSBD. 

Adams’ original statement to the FBI from 11/27/63 says that he called on the 15th… “at which time Oswald was referred to Trans-Texas for a job as a cargo handler at $310 per month” Only in his affidavit nine months later does he say that he only requested a callback. He also says that he learned at 10:30 a.m. the next morning that Oswald was employed. 

The problem I have with all this is Ruth’s testimony. She was asked very specifically if she knew of any job opportunities that came up for Oswald from the TEC from “right around the time that he obtained employment at the TSBD”, and she failed to mention three separate interactions she had with the TEC on Oswald’s behalf at that exact time, and her testimony can quite reasonably be interpreted as prevarication. 

Ruth had no problem remembering other phone calls from that same couple of days, so the only way this really makes sense is if Ruth (1) did not know about a job offer; and (2) could not make the connection that the two conversations she had with Adams and the call to Kittrell (both TEC employees) might be relevant to Jenner’s very specific questioning, which he repeated multiple times, about an employment opportunity that came up from the TEC “right around the time” that Oswald got the job at the TSBD. 

All I’m saying is that available evidence is legitimately ambiguous. The WC and FBI did nothing to find out what really happened, and the theory that Ruth did not inform Oswald about the job actually has some evidentiary support. I’m not making any sort of accusation here against Ruth, because the evidence can be interpreted in several different ways, but I think it’s helpful to make the argument so people can see where the suspicion comes from. It could absolutely be wrong, but to say this argument fails isn’t really accurate IMO - the argument is based on a perfectly reasonable doubt. 

 

Edited July 1, 2022 by Tom Gram

[James DiEugenio]

A lot of the ambiguity is left because the FBI did not check out Ruth's story about Oswald. 

I am till waiting for these guys to produce that 302.

In another 24 hours, if its still not here, we can assume for sake of argument  it does not exist.

Edited July 1, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[David Von Pein]

20 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Where are the 302's concerning Ruth's story? I have never seen them.

Along similar lines, I've asked the following question in past years on this forum (to combat the notion posited by CTers that Bardwell Odum, due in part to a lack of FD-302 reports, never went to Parkland in June of '64 to show CE399 to Darrell Tomlinson and O.P Wright)....

Has anyone seen any of the FD-302 forms for ANY of the other 59 FBI interviews that are also represented in the document known as CE2011? I never have. Has anyone?

Does that therefore mean that if we can't locate FD-302s for any of those various interviews, we have to trash ALL of those interviews in CE2011? Including this one here, which says that G.M. Doughty of the DPD identified his mark on the bullet shell he received from witness Barbara Davis at the scene of Tippit's murder?

And should we also scrap this interview that Odum did with J.M. Poe on July 6, 1964, wherein Poe said he marked the two bullet shells he handled at the Tippit scene? But it's hard to believe that CTers would want to think THIS "Poe" part of CE2011 is a fraud, because it's always the contention of CTers that Poe really did mark the shells, even though he hedged on that point in front of the Warren Commission. So the FBI must be telling the truth about this then.

Point being: Even when the evidence doesn't always mesh together neatly and cleanly, the FBI is on the record saying so, such as the Poe example above.

And I doubt that any large investigation like the JFK/Tippit investigations ever has 100% of its evidence and testimony and reports come together in a perfect, neat package, free of any errors and/or discrepancies.
 

Edited July 1, 2022 by David Von Pein

[James DiEugenio]

CE 2011 is full of stuff that is not sourced.

Everyone knows that who has read it.  Its one of the oddest documents there is because its a summary document not an investigative document.  Anyone can see that by reading it.

What I am saying is simple.  If Ruth was testifying under oath about Oswald and his relationship with the TEC, where was the inquiry to check her story out? To my knowledge there was no summary or investigation of it done. When, in fact, it would have been quite easy to do.

[James DiEugenio]

Let me add another point, this time about Jenner.

As I noted above, Jenner was the guy who examined Kerry Thornley.  As I showed in a two part article, Thornley was, by far, the most incriminating witness the Commission had about Oswald in the service.  He was also one of the worst XXXXX the Commission put on the stand. (https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/kerry-thornley-a-new-look-part-1) 

And if you read that testimony, its pretty clear that Jenner had a quite friendly relationship with Kerry, they exchanged phone numbers.

Now Ruth Paine was one of the most incriminating witnesses they had against Oswald on the domestic side.  And as Carol Hewett pointed out, there are many dubious points in her testimony.  In fact, as I noted above, Jenner helped her smooth one over, about the letter to the Soviet embassy.

Is it just a coincidence that Jenner handled both of them? Chris Newton brought some interesting points up about this issue.

[Tom Gram]

10 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

I've asked this question in past years on this forum (to combat the notion posited by CTers that Bardwell Odum, due to a lack of FD-302 reports, never went to Parkland in June of '64 to show CE399 to Darrell Tomlinson and O.P Wright)....

Has anyone seen any of the FD-302 forms for ANY of the other 59 FBI interviews that are also represented in the document known as CE2011? I never have. Has anyone?

Does that therefore mean that if we can't locate FD-302s for any of those various interviews, we have to trash ALL of those interviews in CE2011? Including this one here, which says that G.M. Doughty of the DPD identified his mark on the bullet shell he received from witness Barbara Davis at the scene of Tippit's murder?

And should we also scrap this interview that Odum did with J.M. Poe on July 6, 1964, wherein Poe said he marked the two bullet shells he handled at the Tippit scene? But it's hard to believe that CTers would want to think THIS "Poe" part of CE2011 is a fraud, because it's always the contention of CTers that Poe really did mark the shells, even though he hedged on that point in front of the Warren Commission. So the FBI must be telling the truth about this then.

Point being: Even when the evidence doesn't always mesh together neatly and cleanly, the FBI is on the record saying so, such as the Poe example above.

And I doubt that any large investigation like the JFK/Tippit investigations ever has 100% of its evidence and testimony and reports come together in a perfect, neat package, free of any errors and/or discrepancies.
 

That’s not really the point here. I agree with Jim on this one. The point is that the WC and FBI made no investigative effort whatsoever to straighten out the facts about the Trans Texas job offer, which would have been incredibly easy for them to do. It’s not that there’s a referenced interview with no 302, there were no interviews at all, as far as I know. 

Jenner presumably knew that Paine had spoken to Adams, twice, and had seen his original statement, but instead of asking questions like a real criminal lawyer, he let her off the hook and even allowed her to cut him off when he was about to reiterate, for the third time, that he was only interested in job opportunities from “right around the time that [Oswald] obtained employment at the TSBD”. A lawyer interested in the truth would have have said something like: “We know that you received a call from the TEC from right around the time that Oswald started work at the TSBD, and that you took a message for him. We also know that the same TEC official was informed of Oswald’s employment the following day at 10:30 a.m. What can you tell us about these phone calls?” 

Then, instead of allowing Adams to submit an affidavit as the WC was closing down that contradicted his original much earlier statement to the FBI, he and other TEC officials should have been asked about standard procedure for leaving messages about job opportunities, Marina should have been interviewed, etc. etc. You get the idea. None of this was ever done. 

As a result, there is legitimate reason to suspect that Paine never passed on Adams’ message to Oswald and that the WC was doing damage control. 
 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

4 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Hi Kirk. That excerpt is describing a call made from Ruth to Laura Kittrell, not Adams. According to Kittrell, Ruth said that Oswald told her to call because he thought Kittrell would be “worried about him” - not because he’d been informed about a potential job opportunity. Ruth then informed Kittrell that Oswald had obtained employment at the TSBD. 

Adams’ original statement to the FBI from 11/27/63 says that he called on the 15th… “at which time Oswald was referred to Trans-Texas for a job as a cargo handler at $310 per month” Only in his affidavit nine months later does he say that he only requested a callback. He also says that he learned at 10:30 a.m. the next morning that Oswald was employed. 

The problem I have with all this is Ruth’s testimony. She was asked very specifically if she knew of any job opportunities that came up for Oswald from the TEC from “right around the time that he obtained employment at the TSBD”, and she failed to mention three separate interactions she had with the TEC on Oswald’s behalf at that exact time, and her testimony can quite reasonably be interpreted as prevarication. 

Ruth had no problem remembering other phone calls from that same couple of days, so the only way this really makes sense is if Ruth (1) did not know about a job offer; and (2) could not make the connection that the two conversations she had with Adams and the call to Kittrell (both TEC employees) might be relevant to Jenner’s very specific questioning, which he repeated multiple times, about an employment opportunity that came up from the TEC “right around the time” that Oswald got the job at the TSBD. 

All I’m saying is that available evidence is legitimately ambiguous. The WC and FBI did nothing to find out what really happened, and the theory that Ruth did not inform Oswald about the job actually has some evidentiary support. I’m not making any sort of accusation here against Ruth, because the evidence can be interpreted in several different ways, but I think it’s helpful to make the argument so people can see where the suspicion comes from. It could absolutely be wrong, but to say this argument fails isn’t really accurate IMO - the argument is based on a perfectly reasonable doubt. 

 

 

Tom,

You have a fine mind and communicate your thoughts well. I hope your frequency of posting doesn't subside.